I broke him
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 182
I broke him
My RAH is on step 7 and is screaming loudly from his apartment across town that he wants a divorce, that the finality of it will solidify his recovery. He ends every email about the kids by saying "You got what you have always wanted, me out of your life. You win, you broke me."
I am so tired of feeling guilty for not reacting correctly to his verbal abuse. I really like the approach of the spouse and the family that Toby Rice Drews takes in "Getting Them Sober." This helped me and I have permission to post it here because it might help you.
"For the TREATMENT of his disease ------if he doesn't want to die from the disease------- requires him to do the 12 steps of A.A.!
> And those 12 steps include making amends to the family-------and thoroughly changing his behavior towards his family!
>
> Those who go to A.A. and who do not do that major change in their behavior to the family-----are putting their sobriety at risk, and increase their chances of dying or going insane from their alcoholism.
>
> The A.A. Big Book itself, makes the truth very clear-------- it says that when the alcoholic gets sober, he sees that his alcoholism caused most of the problems in the home. NOT "the relationship with his spouse".
>
>
> If you want to know "the part the family played in it"---------just read the A.A. Big Book! That book knows more about what happened to the family of the alcoholic than most mental-health professionals have been taught to understand.
>
> The Big Book says, "Our wives were but saints".
>
> The Big Book says that once the alcoholic gets and stays sober, he learns to turn the kaleidascope around, and look at the family from the other end from which he's been looking.
>
> It says that 90% of the problems in the family were directly caused by the alcoholic's drinking. And that when all that stops, the alcoholic is not to blame the family member, and not to say to his wife, like a man coming out of the storm cellar after the storm passed, "ain't it grand, ma, that the storm has passed, isn't it a beautiful day."
>
> The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous says to the alcoholic, that he has been like a tornado ripping through the lives of his family........and that the next step is to make the amends.
>
> Not to ask his wife, "And what was YOUR part in it?"
>
> And-----alcoholism CAUSES alcoholics to act selfishly and self-centeredly----- (one can read about this in the A.A. Big Book itself)----- and even when not wanting to act awful, the alcoholic often winds up acting selfishly in this arena, also. Even when promises have been made to the contrary.
>
> Blame it on the alcoholism.....because that is the origin of the selfishness.
PS, I forwarded it to him and the response was that he was doing well in recovery and making ammends. He signed it "You broke me!" HA
I am so tired of feeling guilty for not reacting correctly to his verbal abuse. I really like the approach of the spouse and the family that Toby Rice Drews takes in "Getting Them Sober." This helped me and I have permission to post it here because it might help you.
"For the TREATMENT of his disease ------if he doesn't want to die from the disease------- requires him to do the 12 steps of A.A.!
> And those 12 steps include making amends to the family-------and thoroughly changing his behavior towards his family!
>
> Those who go to A.A. and who do not do that major change in their behavior to the family-----are putting their sobriety at risk, and increase their chances of dying or going insane from their alcoholism.
>
> The A.A. Big Book itself, makes the truth very clear-------- it says that when the alcoholic gets sober, he sees that his alcoholism caused most of the problems in the home. NOT "the relationship with his spouse".
>
>
> If you want to know "the part the family played in it"---------just read the A.A. Big Book! That book knows more about what happened to the family of the alcoholic than most mental-health professionals have been taught to understand.
>
> The Big Book says, "Our wives were but saints".
>
> The Big Book says that once the alcoholic gets and stays sober, he learns to turn the kaleidascope around, and look at the family from the other end from which he's been looking.
>
> It says that 90% of the problems in the family were directly caused by the alcoholic's drinking. And that when all that stops, the alcoholic is not to blame the family member, and not to say to his wife, like a man coming out of the storm cellar after the storm passed, "ain't it grand, ma, that the storm has passed, isn't it a beautiful day."
>
> The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous says to the alcoholic, that he has been like a tornado ripping through the lives of his family........and that the next step is to make the amends.
>
> Not to ask his wife, "And what was YOUR part in it?"
>
> And-----alcoholism CAUSES alcoholics to act selfishly and self-centeredly----- (one can read about this in the A.A. Big Book itself)----- and even when not wanting to act awful, the alcoholic often winds up acting selfishly in this arena, also. Even when promises have been made to the contrary.
>
> Blame it on the alcoholism.....because that is the origin of the selfishness.
PS, I forwarded it to him and the response was that he was doing well in recovery and making ammends. He signed it "You broke me!" HA
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
Meh. I was "sabotaging" my AH's sobriety, by breathing apparently.
What.Ever.
When they get past the mental age of 5 (if they ever do) then I'll be willing to interact...not till then.
What.Ever.
When they get past the mental age of 5 (if they ever do) then I'll be willing to interact...not till then.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by FSquared 
I'm pretty sure I've got enough junk in my own yard that needs cleaning up! Owning the addict's stuff is not an option.
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 182
25th wedding anniversary yesterday, feeling pretty vulnerable right now. Giving myself a break, it's only been three months. So if you think you see me on his side of the street be a little gentle please.
The hardest part for me to deal with is that my life motto was seek to understand, then to be understood. It works well in my professional life and with most relationships in my personal life. I still love my husband, I would love to understand him. Realizing that you can't understand insanity.
The hardest part for me to deal with is that my life motto was seek to understand, then to be understood. It works well in my professional life and with most relationships in my personal life. I still love my husband, I would love to understand him. Realizing that you can't understand insanity.
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 43
Throughout the years, it seems like every alcoholic I have come across that has made a successful long term recovery had one very important quality ... accepting total and complete responsibility along with heartfelt remorse for the pain and damage their addiction caused to others. They made amends everyday of their lives in one way or the other for the hurt they caused to those close to them.
My AH could never achieve making amends in a totally committed way and as a result, there was always a wall of pain and distrust between us. His amends included about 3 minutes of saying he was sorry in return for decades of immeasurable pain, deceit, turmoil and chaos ....and he never really addressed this issue again. It was one of the biggest failures in his hopes to mend his family when he finally attempted a sincere recovery. It just made the pain and lack of trust continue, and the lingering feeling he was not truly invested in turning his life around. Needless to say, his recovery eventually failed and confirmed my feelings he was not 100 percent committed in making real lasting change. Marriage is suppose to be a partnership built on trust ... and it was totally destroyed by endless destructive alcoholic behaviors as our family became his unwilling collateral damage. When my own alcoholic father finally stopped drinking, his remorse and apologies were genuine and sincere .... and were reflected in his behavior almost everyday of his successful recovery. Our family healed and moved forward as a result of his ongoing sincere amends and commitment to change.
My AH could never achieve making amends in a totally committed way and as a result, there was always a wall of pain and distrust between us. His amends included about 3 minutes of saying he was sorry in return for decades of immeasurable pain, deceit, turmoil and chaos ....and he never really addressed this issue again. It was one of the biggest failures in his hopes to mend his family when he finally attempted a sincere recovery. It just made the pain and lack of trust continue, and the lingering feeling he was not truly invested in turning his life around. Needless to say, his recovery eventually failed and confirmed my feelings he was not 100 percent committed in making real lasting change. Marriage is suppose to be a partnership built on trust ... and it was totally destroyed by endless destructive alcoholic behaviors as our family became his unwilling collateral damage. When my own alcoholic father finally stopped drinking, his remorse and apologies were genuine and sincere .... and were reflected in his behavior almost everyday of his successful recovery. Our family healed and moved forward as a result of his ongoing sincere amends and commitment to change.
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
Maybe he should start addressing you as:
The Messiah
since you're so powerful you can break another human being.
or maybe:
Horse Whisperer
cause "breaking" is something you do with a horse, right?
The Messiah
since you're so powerful you can break another human being.
or maybe:
Horse Whisperer
cause "breaking" is something you do with a horse, right?
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 182
Mentallyexh, the author has a website at gettingthemsober.com I love her because she gets it and she knows that you have been abused, so she doesn't further the abuse by asking you what your part in it is. She claims that most of the counsellors do that because they really don't understand the disease, or they have unresolved feelings about their own codependency.
Kinda stings when you have been in a whirlwind and are coming out of it showing every sign of post traumatic stress and then somebody tells you to figure out your part in it. My latest response was, I was in the wrong city at the wrong time and I met him.
Kinda stings when you have been in a whirlwind and are coming out of it showing every sign of post traumatic stress and then somebody tells you to figure out your part in it. My latest response was, I was in the wrong city at the wrong time and I met him.
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 182
Ha Ha Pelican, without knowing him, you know him. When I met him he said he was always called the Maverick in the family, in his company, etc. Always the self reference to an out of control horse that didn't follow the rules. DUH what was I thinking!
So now he thinks he is broke, not yet buddy, you haven't gotten your divorce from me yet. Then you will know what broke means!
So now he thinks he is broke, not yet buddy, you haven't gotten your divorce from me yet. Then you will know what broke means!
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Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by FunnyOne
Mentallyexh, the author has a website at gettingthemsober.com I love her because she gets it and she knows that you have been abused, so she doesn't further the abuse by asking you what your part in it is. She claims that most of the counsellors do that because they really don't understand the disease, or they have unresolved feelings about their own codependency.
Kinda stings when you have been in a whirlwind and are coming out of it showing every sign of post traumatic stress and then somebody tells you to figure out your part in it. My latest response was, I was in the wrong city at the wrong time and I met him.
Kinda stings when you have been in a whirlwind and are coming out of it showing every sign of post traumatic stress and then somebody tells you to figure out your part in it. My latest response was, I was in the wrong city at the wrong time and I met him.
Finding my part in it has been essential to my spiritual and emotional growth as a human being. I do not see finding my part in it as 'further abuse.' Quite the opposite, actually.
I abused myself for most of my adult life by putting others needs ahead of my own, doing things for others that they should be doing for themselves, and then resenting them for not appreciating me for it. I had a desperate need to be needed, and the arrogance to believe that I knew what was best for everyone. Had I not taken the time and effort to examine these painful truths, I have no doubt I would be right back out there doing the same things, expecting different results.
Yes, being in a relationship with an alcoholic is abusive. But, at least in my opinion, self examination is not. I believe life is a patient teacher. If I deny or ignore the lessons she sends me, they will continue to be presented. Learning those lessons is one of the most loving things I can do for myself.
L
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
FunnyOne,
First of all I am glad you are stepping out the insanity. No one deserves a life next to an active AH in denial. Its like a roulette. Until the roulette turns Russian and the AH dies. Or YOU die after lifelong stress or end up in an insanity ward.
I agree that many people tell you harmful stuff in vulnerable times.
For instance, that you should just stop point-blank talking about what you feel and about what HE did with the cover of YOU being "codependent" (as opposed to being a human being with some destructive codependent tendencies you can change, which throws a much more positive light and is closer to the truth).
These comments do nothing much in regards to acknowledging your pain (which has been so crucial in my own healing)
Or they tell you how he has always been a drinker (ignoring when you were sucked in the AH of course cut back so he appeared social, and many other things you do not notice // and its not YOUR fault you were not an expert on addictions and did not prevented what ensued).
For people after post trauma stress disorder it is recommended to let them talk all the the time they need about it... it naturally comes a time when it ceases to be as important but its crucial to get all that stuff out. THEN you can start seeing your own faults, or repeated patterns...
I agree I attract and long for unavailable people as that is the father figure I got, but I do agree there is also an element of compassion at work here that is not working on the AH's sides. What has "worked" for you before turns into insanity when you come across an insane person.
I guess what I want to say is that grief comes in waves and there is time for everything, time to acknowledge THEIR 50% (misunderstood as wallowing but much needed on the first stages.. or for me.. still an ongoing part), time to feel hurt for what other did, time to realize you really did not knew the person.. time to inform yourself about alcoholism.. time to seek help... its not a matter of throwing guilts around, by the end the reward is self examination and a clearer look of who you are and what you need to work on... but many times that "compassionate voice" is difficult to find through the muddiest times.
I have learned its not all as black or white, at least in my experience...
First of all I am glad you are stepping out the insanity. No one deserves a life next to an active AH in denial. Its like a roulette. Until the roulette turns Russian and the AH dies. Or YOU die after lifelong stress or end up in an insanity ward.
I agree that many people tell you harmful stuff in vulnerable times.
For instance, that you should just stop point-blank talking about what you feel and about what HE did with the cover of YOU being "codependent" (as opposed to being a human being with some destructive codependent tendencies you can change, which throws a much more positive light and is closer to the truth).
These comments do nothing much in regards to acknowledging your pain (which has been so crucial in my own healing)
Or they tell you how he has always been a drinker (ignoring when you were sucked in the AH of course cut back so he appeared social, and many other things you do not notice // and its not YOUR fault you were not an expert on addictions and did not prevented what ensued).
For people after post trauma stress disorder it is recommended to let them talk all the the time they need about it... it naturally comes a time when it ceases to be as important but its crucial to get all that stuff out. THEN you can start seeing your own faults, or repeated patterns...
I agree I attract and long for unavailable people as that is the father figure I got, but I do agree there is also an element of compassion at work here that is not working on the AH's sides. What has "worked" for you before turns into insanity when you come across an insane person.
I guess what I want to say is that grief comes in waves and there is time for everything, time to acknowledge THEIR 50% (misunderstood as wallowing but much needed on the first stages.. or for me.. still an ongoing part), time to feel hurt for what other did, time to realize you really did not knew the person.. time to inform yourself about alcoholism.. time to seek help... its not a matter of throwing guilts around, by the end the reward is self examination and a clearer look of who you are and what you need to work on... but many times that "compassionate voice" is difficult to find through the muddiest times.
I have learned its not all as black or white, at least in my experience...
Last edited by TakingCharge999; 06-17-2009 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Typos :(
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La Tee Da, Drews doesn't say not to work on you. Quite the opposite. She means that in the context of family counselling, marriage counselling, etc. people look to the problems in the RELATIONSHIP, when the real problem in the relationship is the Alcoholic.
Drews empowers people to look at their stuff, their codependency, etc. I agree, it was and is essential for me to evaluate why I held the belief system that I should "give til it hurts."
TC, could you explain this " I
do agree there is also an element of compassion at work here that is not working on the AH's sides. "
There I go again, seeking to understand every little detail.
Drews empowers people to look at their stuff, their codependency, etc. I agree, it was and is essential for me to evaluate why I held the belief system that I should "give til it hurts."
TC, could you explain this " I
do agree there is also an element of compassion at work here that is not working on the AH's sides. "
There I go again, seeking to understand every little detail.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Hi FunnyOne!
Yesterday I was reading "getting them sober" and a book called Positive Energy..
They say (some) human beings feel intuitive empathy and compassion towards other's suffering, and naturally want to help out. That is a human trait.
And when you come across an AH there are times you want to manipulate him into what he was before.. or what he could be... your codie tendencies.. but also, there is some compassion there on seeing a loved person suffer that makes it move on really difficult.
So changing the self-harming codie tendencies is one thing, being judged for naturally trying to help someone out of humanity is a different thing. And so we need to keep the compassionate part of us alive, that is what heals a sick world. (Especially with our own selves)
Maybe I am just rambling? LTD is further away on this road, I cannot even see her, LOL but I guess for many of us after the hell of alcoholism, the gift that is given to us if the gift of soul searching and finally opening our eyes to who we are. I guess I really know now who is worth listening to and who my true friends are.
And I am right there with you trying to understand EVERYTHING...
All the best to you, FunnyOne.
Yesterday I was reading "getting them sober" and a book called Positive Energy..
They say (some) human beings feel intuitive empathy and compassion towards other's suffering, and naturally want to help out. That is a human trait.
And when you come across an AH there are times you want to manipulate him into what he was before.. or what he could be... your codie tendencies.. but also, there is some compassion there on seeing a loved person suffer that makes it move on really difficult.
So changing the self-harming codie tendencies is one thing, being judged for naturally trying to help someone out of humanity is a different thing. And so we need to keep the compassionate part of us alive, that is what heals a sick world. (Especially with our own selves)
Maybe I am just rambling? LTD is further away on this road, I cannot even see her, LOL but I guess for many of us after the hell of alcoholism, the gift that is given to us if the gift of soul searching and finally opening our eyes to who we are. I guess I really know now who is worth listening to and who my true friends are.
And I am right there with you trying to understand EVERYTHING...
All the best to you, FunnyOne.
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Originally Posted by TakingCharge999
They say (some) human beings feel intuitive empathy and compassion towards other's suffering, and naturally want to help out. That is a human trait.
I think I've said this before. We all have personality traits. The traits themselves are not 'good' or 'bad,' 'codependent' or 'healthy.' It's how we manifest those traits in our lives and interactions with others that make them constructive or destructive.
In your example above, feeling empathy and compassion for others is not a problem, in and of itself. The part that causes the problem is when we get confused about just what 'helping' means. That's where compassion can get completely twisted into arrogance--as in "I know what's best for you better than you do."
My ongoing objective is not to eliminate certain personality traits that I have. It's to learn how to best manifest them in ways that are beneficial to me and others, rather than let them become self-destructive.
L
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by FunnyOne
She means that in the context of family counselling, marriage counselling, etc. people look to the problems in the RELATIONSHIP, when the real problem in the relationship is the Alcoholic.
Yet I got the same results over and over, painful though they were.
I've found that since I accepted the fact that my man-picker was broken, and that I had untreated codependency that created a lot of pain in my life, my life got considerably better (with a lot of self-work, of course)!
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