NYC_Chick

I'm having a "friend" dilemma. I'm not sure what to do except NOT go back to my old codie ways.

I have been friends with this person since we were in school together a few years back. We have spent countless hours hanging out over the years we've know each other, mostly because we had a lot of fun together and since my ex was constantly too busy on the weekends with work to spend time with me, we hung out even more. Anyway...

We have had a couple of HUGE arguments, one in which we didn't speak for 6 weeks last summer. Things were fine for a long time and she was a great friend to me going through all of this stuff with my ex BUT the more I got into my own recovery, the more I decided it was time to set boundaries with everyone in my life. Since we were so close, that included her.

One of my biggest triggers is people "owning" me. By this I mean during arguments telling me "you're doing this because..." or "you are acting this way because..." I HATE this. Part of what I learned in therapy is that it's important to own your own feelings, like "I think you are doing this because" or "I feel you are acting this way because." Seems simple enough, right? Not with her. I've had several discussions with her about this. On many occasions she has said she doesn't see what the difference is if she says things one way or another. I have told her numerous times that I can't have discussions where I'm being owned, so it would be helpful if she just wouldn't do it.

A couple of weeks ago this came up again. I can't even remember what the fight started with now because it got twisted so many ways by the time it was over I lost track. She said something to the effect of "You're saying this because...." I said in a pretty stern voice that I would appreciate if she wouldn't own me. She then went on a tangent about 10 other things, resulting in me yelling "Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a f*&^ing brick wall." She told me I could talk to a brick wall all by myself and hung up on me. Not cool of me to say, but I had reached my limit with this, clearly.

She was starting a new job the following Monday and had to go out of town for work. I was supposed to watch her dog. I emailed and told her I would no longer be able to watch him and to make other arrangements. I also told her I was tired of having the same boundary conversation with her and felt that she always had a way of twisting things to the point of not knowing what the argument was about.

The day before she was leaving, I felt bad about the dog being in a kennel and told her I would come stay with him. She declined the offer. I then told her that was fine, but I wasn't going to chase her to forgive me for it and that I could no longer have relationships where my boundaries were crossed, whether they were friendships or romantic relationships. I didn't hear anything back from her.

A few days later a friend's father passed away. He called to tell me and said he couldn't get ahold of the friend I am talking about and asked if I would pass the information on, which I did. She thanked me for the info and didn't say anything else. I'm not sure if she thought this was some veiled attempt to talk to her, but it honestly wasn't. It was about my friend needing all the support he could get, so that's why I forwarded his email to her.

Now for the dilemma....We have a trip to Europe planned for the fall. The balance for the trip is due on July 3rd. She booked the trip. I called the travel agent and they don't have a reservation for me. I emailed her to confirm that she cancelled because if she did, I want to move my vacation time at work and go on the trip next year with my best friend and his partner. She hasn't emailed back.

Also, her birthday is next weekend. She doesn't have any other close friends, so if I'm not planning to do anything with her for her birthday, she will likely end up sitting at home by herself. As mad as I am at her, I know how upsetting sitting at home alone on your birthday is, so I don't wish that for her. I did email another friend that we went to school with and told him we were not talking and that she likely doesn't have b-day plans, so he will try to contact her and take her out, but there isn't anything else I can do.

The truth is as much as I don't want to fight with her, it's more important for me to be true to myself and have boundaries with people. So, I guess if the friendship is over because of this, I'll learn to be ok with that. However, and this is where my codie stuff comes in, I feel like I am the one that has to be sorry for this. Yes, the friendship is important to me, but chasing people around for approval, or essentially begging them not to leave my life is so not for me anymore. I guess I don't really know how to say I know I upset you and you upset me, but I would like to find a way to get past this. I didn't know she was this passive/aggressive and think saying anything at this point would probably do nothing more than give her the satisfaction of knowing I was upset all so she can ignore me more.

Sorry this is sooooooooo long. I would appreciate any advice! Thanks

lizw

I can really relate to what you're saying regarding the type of relationship you have with your friend. I've been having the same kind of relationship with my boss. Lol. I.e. I tell him not to do something, he agrees not to but then he does it again, then I go mad and tell him not to do it, he agrees but then he does it again, then I go mad etc...

This has been happening for 6 months now and FINALLY the other day it dawned on me that I can keep insisting he change or I can change myself! So, with no resentment I have started looking for another job.

Does this mean I will cut him out of my life completely? Well, no. I only work part time so I may just cut my hours back with him and get another job or I may get another job but remain on friendly terms with him and work for him from time to time. But I won't do it with the expectation he will/should change, regardless of how 'right/healthy' I think I am.

Getting another job is just what is good for me. And it is right and good to do what is good for me and I think the key is 'without resentment'. You see, my head either says 'it's all on' (let's fight) or 'it's all off' (I'm running away). Recovery teaches me the middle ground is where I want to land, it's a lot more comfortable in the long run.

Dunno if this helps any. Thanks for your post.

PHIZ007

Firstly I am sorry to hear you are going through this!

I had a very similar thing happen to me last year with a "friend" I have had for 15 years! She came to stay with us and during the trip I realised my god we are so so different.....she has always been so opininated about MY LIFE! about how I should do things! And what I should say blah blah blah blah and on its goes.........I realised on this paricular visit that it was the first time I had ever actually stood up to her and said actually its not like that atall!!.......to cut a long dramatic story short she stayed with us three days and left to have somespace and stay in a hotel....wait for it....."BECAUSE oBVIOUSLY IT WAS TOO MUCH FOR ME TO HAVE VISITORS"!!!......Funnily enough we have lots of visitors as we live the other side of the world to our family so plenty people come to stay.......and in ten years she is the only one that has ever had a problem....with us. I also realised that she is such a negative person......always looking on the down side of life, so so judgemental of everyone, thinks she is the perfect no faulting parent,....and basically she drove me up the wall with her constant sacasm, negativtivty and blame of everyone else!! She owned absolutely nothing I finally realised after 15 years....and I am so glad I didn't wait for anothr 15 years! :0)

You know what i realised....how toxic this friendship had been for a long time, and because I had always let her speak to me the way she did she just continued. The friendship only ended because I realised I no longer wanted a "friend" like that.....I was sad, very sad. I fnally stood up to her and guesss what she didn't like it atall!!! The only way I can describe it is when you are a teenager and you have a boyfriend that you don't really want to be with but its easier then not being with them. Then one day it ends and you are a bit sad maybe for a while but are so so glad it is over and don't really understand how it lasted the time it did! Does that kind of make sense??!!

I also always felt I had to apologise to here about stuff (we never ever actually fell out before this grand finale!!.....because the friendship was always her way......)

So I understand what you are saying totally........I think what you need to really decide is is this friendship really the type of friendship you want in the future. If so then I think you could be honest and pretty much say how you are feeling......if you decide however that this isn't the sort of friendship you wish to have...then let it be what it was and move on.....with no regrets and it was what it was type thing......hope I have helped a bit.....and not just waffled!

I do not miss her in any way shape or form! I am glad she is no longer part of my life because actually for a long time her judgemental outlook on life about everything and everyone wasn't nice to be around.

Today is a new day...all the best Phiz :bounce

geees poncho

When we start to grow in our recovery some freinds/family don't know how to handle
the new us. So a little wall goes up, But if we try to keep a line of communication open,
we can often work thru these little tifs, and step over the little wall.
a little time apart sounds like the way you 2 work things out.
Good Luck & God Bless

prodigal

Perhaps she has no close friends because she does not respect anyone's boundaries; your's included! I've spent birthdays and holidays alone. I'm still alive and well. From your post, it appears she has an unforgiving nature and tends to nurse a grudge. JMO, but perhaps the greatest gift you could give her for her birthday is to let her "celebrate" it alone. She may take it as an opportunity to reflect upon some of her less attractive behaviors.

I had an EXTREMELY opinionated gf a number of years ago. When she finally pulled what I considered the final straw; namely, giving me her opinion in a very overbearing manner when I had not even asked for her opinion, I decided the friendship had worn out its welcome.

That was in December 1992. I moved on and never spoke with her again. I wish her no ill will and I hope she is doing well. I simply realized I did not want such people in my life. Actually, she had pulled a number of yukky things before I finally pulled the plug on the relationship.

Don't feel bad if you aren't there to "save" her from her loneliness on her b-day. It sounds as if she does not wish to have contact with you at this time. Respect her wishes. Should she want to contact you, she has your number.

Barbara52

FIght those code tendencies! They are scattered all thuough your post. You are trying to "own" her from the way I read it. You don't like it being done to you. Don't do it to others.

As for the trip, if there is no reservation, I would think there is no trip. Had you already made payments? Can you get that money back?

NYC_Chick

She put down the deposits and I paid her back. It's not really about the money as the trip, believe it or not, was incredibly inexpensive.

Barb: That's interesting about me "owning" her. I'll re-read my post. Thanks!

NYC_Chick

Prodigal: This is one of my biggest problems. When someone refuses to speak to me, whether for good reason or not, I feel abandoned. It's hard to fight against it, but if I don't do it now in life, then when? For now, I'll just wait and see what happens.

Barbara52

This paragraph is particular strikes me as you taking responsbility for her and her reactions/actions. She is an adult capable of celebrating her brithday in what ever manner suits her fancy. You are taking ownership of what you see as the likely outcome of her not having you around for her birthday it seems to me.

NYC_Chick

Thanks, Barb!

This reminds me of discussing what would happen to my ex if I left with my therapist. My therapist just said..."You're not that important." So true!

Barbara52

I think those words, "You're not that important," are something we all need to hear periodically. I know I do. What a relief it is to understand and accept that I'm not that important.

i4getsm

NYC: Rather than going around the horn on this argument, I would probably email her back and say "I haven't heard from you about the trip. If I don't hear from you on X date, I'll assume the trip is off and make other plans." Period. Show her you're serious. You don't have to chase after her. Friendships, like relationships, should be even sided. She's holding a grudge and expecting you to call her to make contact. I agree with Prodigal about the birthday thing. You can't expect her to change, but you can set your boundaries and then remove yourself from the situation if those boundaries are crossed. Arguing with her isn't accomplishing anything and is only making you miserable. If your friendship is important to her, then SHE will change her ways to be friends with you based on your boundaries.

One more thing...as someone who also had a childhood friendship that lasted forever and eventually died, sometimes friends around for a season in your life. It's hard to let go of the ones that have lasted so long, but sometimes it's necessary. I still think of my friend occassionally but I have no desire to contact her anymore. It just became too much like work! I'm not saying some friends aren't worth the compromise (because they are) but it's important for my sanity to start protecting myself. If our friendship can grow from that, then great, but I'm not hanging my head out there to be chopped off anymore.

ToughChoices

I always enjoy your posts, NYC. You are a smart, motivated person, and you are obviously taking your recovery seriously.

But this post troubled me a bit.

I got this sense that you were setting the boundary with her because in recovery that's what you are "supposed" to do with people that you are close to.

I have a lot of confusion about this in my own life.
I read somewhere once that a boundary looks like this:

I don't like it when you ______.
If you don't stop _______ I will have to _________.

But, for me, at first, the only phrase that I knew to insert into that last blank was "cut you out of my life forever!" What can I say? I certainly have some all-or-nothing tendencies!
I wonder if you may have the same.

If you are ready to end the friendship, do so with a clear conscience. If you are not, then don't feel that recovery from codependency requires you to do so.
Do you want to end an upsetting conversation or an upsetting relationship?
Just something to think about - I have some regrets about my initial boundaries.

I'm thinking about you today, NYC!
Take care.
-TC

NYC_Chick

Thanks Toughchoices!

I don't want to lose her as a friend at all. Maybe there is something to what you are saying, so I'll explain myself a bit.

When my ex and I were in couples counseling the therapist would obviously listen to us and pick apart what she thought was going on based on our interactions in front of her and what we (well, me) told her about. One of the biggest triggers for me was the whole "owning" thing I'm talking about in my post. It happened A LOT! Anyway, despite the other things going on, we were able to hash out the owning stuff but in less than fun moments (like arguing about social drinking) it would come out again. It just became a bigger trigger for me.

My friend is very intelligent and thoughtful, however, I can't seem to get her to understand why this stuff upsets me. I've sat down and talked to her calmly about it, written emails about it, yelled at her about it, you name it, I've presented it that way. She has said that she doesn't understand how changing the way she speaks to me makes any difference. In a way, I can't really expect it to sink in overnight as she's never been to couples counseling, but I'm exhausted from trying to get her to understand.

I admit I have often taken the hard-line approach to things and, you are right, it often doesn't help but I can't think of any other way to get my message across. At this point it just feels like I can either continue to have my boundaries crossed, or I can stay away and save myself the trouble of being "owned." Right now, I can't think of another way to do this other than maybe say...If you own me in an argument, I will hang up, leave, etc. and when you can have a conversation with me without owning me I'm willing to talk.

Boy, this recovery stuff can be confusing!

geees poncho

NYC-Chick
I'm kinda hearing you really treasure this friendship,
and your friend is not being very respectfull.
towards your bounderies, as she may not understand (bounderies)
would it be possible to try and suggest that she TRY to understand, has she got any issues that the 2 of you could compare senseitively??
If she has no program stuff going on, you may as well talk to a wall.

Shivaya

Hi NYC Chickadee!

I completely understand where you are coming from. I'm not a fan of anyone telling me how I feel or why I say the things I do. The person that does this to me the most, is my AH.

When this happens, I try to calmly tell him that only I can say how I feel. He can have his "opinion" as to what he thinks I might be feeling, buy only I can speak for myself!

If I found myself in your situation, I might call my friend and ask if we could meet and talk things over. I would let her know exactly how I'm feeling and ask for her understanding and support, as I continue in my recovery.

It sounds like your friend is having a hard time understanding your point of view. Sounds like you've tried your best to help her understand.

That being said, it might be helpful for you to accept that she might not ever understand your point. In my opinion, I would not want to lose a friend over this.

I'm sending positive thoughts your way and hoping that you and your friend work this out.

Shivaya

i4getsm

This sounds like a good boundary to me.

Kindeyes

Hey there NYC
I'm taking a little different tact here for you.........one of the people I needed to set boundaries with was my father. So.....I had to figure out how to maintain my boundaries without ending an important relationship.

My father is not an A. But he is a man who knows my boundaries very well and continually crossed them, stomped all over them, on purpose.......simply to get my reaction. He enjoyed the fact that he could yank my chain (and sometimes it was quite hurtful) and get me to react. It was like a game to him. And no matter how politely I asked him to stop it.......no matter whether or not I got mad.......as long as I "reacted" in any manner....it continued. He was getting enjoyment out of it and I was miserable.

So....what did I do? I stopped reacting. I own my own emotions. I changed ME and stopped trying to change HIM. It worked. I simply don't react emotionally to him when he does that. I'm very deadpan. If necessary, I say "gotta go" and I remove myself from the situation. Sometimes I just say "whatever" and change the subject. Sometimes I say "have it your way" and change the subject. Gradually (and yes it took a looooong time) he stopped doing it because he no longer got the reaction he wanted out of me. It was no longer satisfying to him. That is how I dealt with that boundary with him and we have a close relationship. I just don't let him get to me anymore because that was the game and it was my choice to stop playing.

Just because your friend has this irritating little behavior, it doesn't mean what she is saying is true and there is no need to validate it by arguing with her. She can only "own" you if you are allowing her to. It is possible to change the interaction with another person......but I have found that the key is........me.

gentle hugs

Mair

Ive changed, not my friends, I may see some of them in a different light now but one of the main things ive learnt about of all this is that i cant change anybody.

If one of my friends disrespected my feelings, i would let them know about it just like you have done. I'd do it calmly, just like i would do with my xab, and if she didnt get the message and continued to p-- me off, then i'd walk away with a clear conciense.

I think a lot of people in my life have used me over the years, because i allowed them too. The recovering me won't tolerate it, they have to get to know the new me and some won't like it.

Mair x

NYC_Chick

Thanks everyone!

Anvil: I agree with that. I think some of it has transfered over, but I also think I realized through my experiences with my ex just how I let people talk to me. It's not just in this friendship either.

I have an uncle that I'm very close with, however, there is one thing we simply have not ever been able to talk about without conflict...politics! He is very to the right and I am very to the left. He will usually stop at nothing to prove a point about it, like sending elaborate emails with links to websites to back up his points. I finally just said I won't talk about politics with him because it results in problems. Then, something came up during primaries (shock! since they were so long) and I made a comment to him. He said nothing. So, I finally asked if we could talk about our political rifts. We agreed that if the conversation was getting too heated we would simply tell the other one and get off the phone. So far, this has been a great boundary. I don't feel run over and he doesn't feel the need (at least from what I can tell from his actions) to prove his point with elaborate emails.

The point of me saying all of this is what I learned in couples counseling is that how I let people talk to me really carries over to everyone else in my life. I actually talked to my therapist about this the last time I was there. I already know that I've been ok with being talked to in a negative way from my past, so I really want to change that. However, I don't want to alienate (sp?) everyone in my life in my effort to get people to respect my boundaries.

Kindeyes and Mair: so true! I can't change anyone and maybe that's part of the issue here. I'm still trying to control how people treat me instead of not ALLOWING them to get into my head.

Shivaya: Always with Chickadee! Thanks!

So for the update: She finally responded to my email and apologized for hanging up on me. She also said how she didn't understand how whether we talk was up to her. I explained that it was up to her because I had reached out with no response. She also said that she had felt she had been a good friend to me during the break-up so she didn't feel it was fair of me to call her a "f&*%ing brick wall." I told her that I was sorry for the comment again and that I appreciated all her support during what has been a difficult time. I also told her that just because I made that statement in the context of one boundary didn't mean it was a blanket statement about the entire friendship. I haven't heard back from her, so I'm just going to let things play out how they will and try not to analyze it to death. You all know how good I am at that!