"Getting them Sober" and he doesnt "get it"
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"Getting them Sober" and he doesnt "get it"
I took the advice of SR and purchased the book "Getting them Sober". Great book by the way. One of the best I have read thus far (and trust me I have read and read lately). Anyway, I was reading this book the other evening and I left to run an errand for an hour. Lo and behold when I get back my AH is reading the book. I could tell that he was not agreeing with what he was reading but I said nothing. The next day he brings up this particular book and asks me about it. I knew where this was going and I should not have participated but I made an error in judgement.
He said it seems that this book portrays all A's as terrible and horrible individuals. I said that there are different extremes of A's but that most are manipulative and selfish. Anyway, he says "and is that how you portray me?" I said that he does in fact share the characteristics of A's (hellllooooo he is an A). It was just shocking to him that he actually was like "them" and that he couldnt possibly be like "them" . Sooo he asks me to explain it to him. Okay, an example. Bad idea but hey the truth hurts and lets not beat around the bush, right. So I give hime four examples of recent acts of selfishness and manipulation. He says nothing to me but just looks at me in disbelief. AND I just walk away. It actually felt good to leave him speechless for once.
He was just in shock that once again he is "one of them" . Do all A's think they are wonderful people with just one flaw? LOL. Do they ever get it? He has been sober approximately 80 days now and has been to 5 AA meetings and in my opinion is not embracing sobriety and is "white-knuckling it". It would almost be better sometimes if he were drinking IMO.
To anyone who has not read the book "Getting them Sober" I would highly recommend that you read it. This is a book for US.
Have a great weekend everyone.
And thanks for listening.
He said it seems that this book portrays all A's as terrible and horrible individuals. I said that there are different extremes of A's but that most are manipulative and selfish. Anyway, he says "and is that how you portray me?" I said that he does in fact share the characteristics of A's (hellllooooo he is an A). It was just shocking to him that he actually was like "them" and that he couldnt possibly be like "them" . Sooo he asks me to explain it to him. Okay, an example. Bad idea but hey the truth hurts and lets not beat around the bush, right. So I give hime four examples of recent acts of selfishness and manipulation. He says nothing to me but just looks at me in disbelief. AND I just walk away. It actually felt good to leave him speechless for once.
He was just in shock that once again he is "one of them" . Do all A's think they are wonderful people with just one flaw? LOL. Do they ever get it? He has been sober approximately 80 days now and has been to 5 AA meetings and in my opinion is not embracing sobriety and is "white-knuckling it". It would almost be better sometimes if he were drinking IMO.
To anyone who has not read the book "Getting them Sober" I would highly recommend that you read it. This is a book for US.
Have a great weekend everyone.
And thanks for listening.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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I've never read the book but I've heard nothing but wonderful things about it. I'm glad you find it helpful.
As far as your H's reaction, well, that's not too suprising. I know that my (now) ex always thought of himself as a kind and thoughtful person *ahem*! Those are qualities that he 'did' possess at one time...a long, long time ago.
Do they ever get it? Yes, I think some do, but, not all! It depends on how they embrace and work their recovery, IMO.
As far as your H's reaction, well, that's not too suprising. I know that my (now) ex always thought of himself as a kind and thoughtful person *ahem*! Those are qualities that he 'did' possess at one time...a long, long time ago.
Do they ever get it? Yes, I think some do, but, not all! It depends on how they embrace and work their recovery, IMO.
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Just a thought, get the book "Under the Influence" and leave out. perhaps he would read that too. It tells how the alcohol starts working on us and how it takes over.
Answers a lot of questions for both alcoholic and the spouse.
Answers a lot of questions for both alcoholic and the spouse.
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Greetings, daisies. As to your question of whether or not they "get it" well ... no, they don't. Protection of the addiction and the behaviors that go along with it is the way addicts think. It doesn't make a darned bit of sense to us, but it sure makes sense to them.
They can be pulling a dry drunk or on a week's-long bender, but they don't see the inherent behaviors that are so obvious to others. It's denial, it's sickness, it's just part of the disease process. I think your pointing out to him examples of what he has done is okay, as long as you don't keep rehashing it. He heard what you said. Let him chew on it.
I certainly know how frustrating it is to try to get them to see their messed-up thinking, but we often end up behaving as crazy as them in our efforts to make them see what we see so clearly.
They can be pulling a dry drunk or on a week's-long bender, but they don't see the inherent behaviors that are so obvious to others. It's denial, it's sickness, it's just part of the disease process. I think your pointing out to him examples of what he has done is okay, as long as you don't keep rehashing it. He heard what you said. Let him chew on it.
I certainly know how frustrating it is to try to get them to see their messed-up thinking, but we often end up behaving as crazy as them in our efforts to make them see what we see so clearly.
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Originally Posted by prodigal 
but they don't see the inherent behaviors that are so obvious to others.
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Mine was like that too. He once spent a couple weeks in an inpatient facility, and his counselor told me that 'he keeps saying he's glad he's not as bad as the others there, but he's really one of the worst I've seen for a while!' Denial.
He'd often say, when asked how much he'd had, 'Oh just one beer!'. when really it was multiple tall malt liquors, or a whole bottle of whiskey. Denial.
The truth hurts too much. Yet it's truth that will set them free. Like all of us!
I think that pointing out incidents and examples, and then walking away leaving him speechless, was not a bad thing at all. Maybe, just maybe, he'll think about it and see some truth there. Or not. Let it be whatever it is.
He'd often say, when asked how much he'd had, 'Oh just one beer!'. when really it was multiple tall malt liquors, or a whole bottle of whiskey. Denial.
The truth hurts too much. Yet it's truth that will set them free. Like all of us!
I think that pointing out incidents and examples, and then walking away leaving him speechless, was not a bad thing at all. Maybe, just maybe, he'll think about it and see some truth there. Or not. Let it be whatever it is.
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Daisies, who is the author of "Getting Them Sober"? I would like to read it. Yes, they DO think they are wonderful people and not liars, manipulators, etc.
"Under the Influence" is excellent. It is a "must read." The descriptions of later-stage alcoholics and what the body is going through is incredibly heartbreaking.
As an aside, there is something I struggle with after reading "Under the Influence", "When they Won't Quit" (Bruce Cotter) and "No More Letting Go." ALL these books advocate intervention and as a last resort forceable, involuntary detox/rehab. I know this differs with the majority of the opinions on here, but it a belief that I embrace more than walking away.
Mushroom, same experience with my XABF. How many has he had that day? It's always "2 to 3." He's always "weaning down to one." He's always "looking great, and people tell me how healthy I look." WOW, he couldn't be further from the truth.
"Under the Influence" is excellent. It is a "must read." The descriptions of later-stage alcoholics and what the body is going through is incredibly heartbreaking.
As an aside, there is something I struggle with after reading "Under the Influence", "When they Won't Quit" (Bruce Cotter) and "No More Letting Go." ALL these books advocate intervention and as a last resort forceable, involuntary detox/rehab. I know this differs with the majority of the opinions on here, but it a belief that I embrace more than walking away.
Mushroom, same experience with my XABF. How many has he had that day? It's always "2 to 3." He's always "weaning down to one." He's always "looking great, and people tell me how healthy I look." WOW, he couldn't be further from the truth.
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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The author of the book "Getting them Sober" is Toby Rice Drews.
Also, there is a website that they have as well. It is fantastic. It is under: getting them sober. com
I cannot post a website until i have had 15 posts.
I will definitely add "Under the Influence" to my library.
Thanks so much.
Also, there is a website that they have as well. It is fantastic. It is under: getting them sober. com
I cannot post a website until i have had 15 posts.
I will definitely add "Under the Influence" to my library.
Thanks so much.
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Originally Posted by CBrown
As an aside, there is something I struggle with after reading "Under the Influence", "When they Won't Quit" (Bruce Cotter) and "No More Letting Go." ALL these books advocate intervention and as a last resort forceable, involuntary detox/rehab. I know this differs with the majority of the opinions on here, but it a belief that I embrace more than walking away.
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"Interventions and forceable detox/rehab mean nothing if the addict does not embrace sobriety. It is heartbreaking, but the truth."
The truth? According to whom? That sounds like an opinion. We all have opinions on here, but that does not make them the truth in every scenario.
I am constantly amazed by how "Under the Inflience" is quoted on this forum, held up as one of, if not "the" source of understanding about alcoholism, yet parts of it are ignored. You will very rarely find these parts quoted:
"Under the Influence: What Can Friends and Family Do"
"The widely accepted belief that alcoholics have to "hit bottom" before they can be helped has been completely discredited in recent years. Waiting for the alcoholic to realize he needs treatment is simply a mistake, for left to his own devices, he is likely to become less willing to seek treatment, not more willing.
No matter how fiercely the alcoholic fights those who want to help him stop drinking, he can be helped more often than not. Well over half of the alcoholics now being treated successfully were forced into treatment against their wills; they did not want to stop drinking, but certain crises in their lives backed them into a corner and forced them to seek help."
I wish I could find the line in the book that states that oftentimes it is half way through the involuntary rehab that that treatment finally sinks in and the A embraces sobriety. Does it always happen? Heavens, no. But if one person can be saved, isn't it worth a try? Remember what insanity is ... trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. So why not try something different?
Now before hackles start rising, I am not saying that every person who has gone through emotional hell with an A should do this. Your own, and your family's sanity comes first. But I am advocating that if you ARE able to emotionally detach and help this is worth a try! Too often we tell people "walk away, do not look back." So we sit back, hope and pray that the A "sees the light" and wash our hands of it. Some need to do that. I prefer a difference course. I still care about my A and am trying to get him help if possible. All options need put on the table for friends and family of As. Remember, take what you can use, throw out the rest. But let's keep our minds open. JMHO.
The truth? According to whom? That sounds like an opinion. We all have opinions on here, but that does not make them the truth in every scenario.
I am constantly amazed by how "Under the Inflience" is quoted on this forum, held up as one of, if not "the" source of understanding about alcoholism, yet parts of it are ignored. You will very rarely find these parts quoted:
"Under the Influence: What Can Friends and Family Do"
"The widely accepted belief that alcoholics have to "hit bottom" before they can be helped has been completely discredited in recent years. Waiting for the alcoholic to realize he needs treatment is simply a mistake, for left to his own devices, he is likely to become less willing to seek treatment, not more willing.
No matter how fiercely the alcoholic fights those who want to help him stop drinking, he can be helped more often than not. Well over half of the alcoholics now being treated successfully were forced into treatment against their wills; they did not want to stop drinking, but certain crises in their lives backed them into a corner and forced them to seek help."
I wish I could find the line in the book that states that oftentimes it is half way through the involuntary rehab that that treatment finally sinks in and the A embraces sobriety. Does it always happen? Heavens, no. But if one person can be saved, isn't it worth a try? Remember what insanity is ... trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. So why not try something different?
Now before hackles start rising, I am not saying that every person who has gone through emotional hell with an A should do this. Your own, and your family's sanity comes first. But I am advocating that if you ARE able to emotionally detach and help this is worth a try! Too often we tell people "walk away, do not look back." So we sit back, hope and pray that the A "sees the light" and wash our hands of it. Some need to do that. I prefer a difference course. I still care about my A and am trying to get him help if possible. All options need put on the table for friends and family of As. Remember, take what you can use, throw out the rest. But let's keep our minds open. JMHO.
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Originally Posted by CBrown
"Under the Influence: What Can Friends and Family Do"
"The widely accepted belief that alcoholics have to "hit bottom" before they can be helped has been completely discredited in recent years. Waiting for the alcoholic to realize he needs treatment is simply a mistake, for left to his own devices, he is likely to become less willing to seek treatment, not more willing.
No matter how fiercely the alcoholic fights those who want to help him stop drinking, he can be helped more often than not. Well over half of the alcoholics now being treated successfully were forced into treatment against their wills; they did not want to stop drinking, but certain crises in their lives backed them into a corner and forced them to seek help."
"The widely accepted belief that alcoholics have to "hit bottom" before they can be helped has been completely discredited in recent years. Waiting for the alcoholic to realize he needs treatment is simply a mistake, for left to his own devices, he is likely to become less willing to seek treatment, not more willing.
No matter how fiercely the alcoholic fights those who want to help him stop drinking, he can be helped more often than not. Well over half of the alcoholics now being treated successfully were forced into treatment against their wills; they did not want to stop drinking, but certain crises in their lives backed them into a corner and forced them to seek help."
As to the OP, denial is a psychological defence mechanism that is present in us all. I see it exhibited on here everytime I log on, I hear it everyday IRL and I recognise it in myself more frequently than I would like, although I am getting much better at unpicking my motives and drivers the further along I get.
Do they ever get it? Do any of us? Truth be told, I have enough to do looking at my own stuff, keeping my side of the street clean and making healthy choices for myself that I have no time to do anything but casually observe and make occasional comment on what other people are doing and why.
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"What is hitting bottom if it is not being backed into a corner, whether perceived or actual? Hitting bottom is a relative term - it varies from person to person."
Excellent question, which is not addressed in the book. My take on it was always a physical crisis, such as a heart attack or liver finally giving out. I guess it could be a spiritual bottom too? Like maybe you wake up and don't know who the three people in bed with you are? It could be a lot of different things. Thanks for posing that view!
I would also agree with you that the desire to be sober can't be forced by rehab. But if they're appearing to be 100% insane when they're drinking 24/7, it seems to be a good argument that a addict could "see the light" after they've had a few weeks of forced sobriety under their belt. I certainly wouldn't say it isn't possible.
Out of the three books I've read so far on alcoholism, two are by people who DO have an interest in forcing people to go to rehab. Both run intervention services, so naturally they're pushing interventions and challenging conventional wisdom about treatment. In R's case, one-on-one interventions failed. From what I saw on the Intervention Show's webpage, they seem to have success, but who knows the long-term track record.
Excellent question, which is not addressed in the book. My take on it was always a physical crisis, such as a heart attack or liver finally giving out. I guess it could be a spiritual bottom too? Like maybe you wake up and don't know who the three people in bed with you are? It could be a lot of different things. Thanks for posing that view!
I would also agree with you that the desire to be sober can't be forced by rehab. But if they're appearing to be 100% insane when they're drinking 24/7, it seems to be a good argument that a addict could "see the light" after they've had a few weeks of forced sobriety under their belt. I certainly wouldn't say it isn't possible.
Out of the three books I've read so far on alcoholism, two are by people who DO have an interest in forcing people to go to rehab. Both run intervention services, so naturally they're pushing interventions and challenging conventional wisdom about treatment. In R's case, one-on-one interventions failed. From what I saw on the Intervention Show's webpage, they seem to have success, but who knows the long-term track record.
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I've heard both ways...we tried one because I wanted to know I had done everything I could. exAH did not get treatment (yet?) however it was very helpful for the kids and me in several ways.
I was told by several that have had them "done on them" that they always "work" on some level. The man who came and lead our intervention had one done for him when he was 18y and walked out 5 minutes into it and his family did not see or hear from him for 3 years when he was taken into a Detroit hospital technically dead. Fast-forward to today where he works fulltime, married with several children and helps with interventions on the side. He said that not one day went by during those three years that he did not think about the intervention or something someone said to him at that time..everytime he used/drank he thought about it,too.
I guess what I am saying is you never know what.when,where,who,etc the A's HP will use to deliver His message. What the A decides to do with it, is his own choice.
I figured I would not know if I did not try,so I did.
jmo
I was told by several that have had them "done on them" that they always "work" on some level. The man who came and lead our intervention had one done for him when he was 18y and walked out 5 minutes into it and his family did not see or hear from him for 3 years when he was taken into a Detroit hospital technically dead. Fast-forward to today where he works fulltime, married with several children and helps with interventions on the side. He said that not one day went by during those three years that he did not think about the intervention or something someone said to him at that time..everytime he used/drank he thought about it,too.
I guess what I am saying is you never know what.when,where,who,etc the A's HP will use to deliver His message. What the A decides to do with it, is his own choice.
I figured I would not know if I did not try,so I did.
jmo
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Please allow me to pipe in based on my own personal experience
In the State of Arizona, interventions do not mean squat. The addict MUST say he wants to go to detox/rehab. In this state, an addict has the right to drink or drug himself to death - period. If I staged an intervention at this point, AH would not understand what was being said to him anyway.
He has been hospitalized THREE times this past week; once by me and twice by the sheriff's department. That's how bad off he is. A psychiatrist and psychologist both admitted AH is incompetent; however, he does not fall under "Title 36" of this state to be adjudged incompetent. Why? Because his dementia is due to acute alcohol addiction, not an actual mental illness.
I believe interventions can work. A competent interventionist CAN be successful. In my case, it would be a crap shoot. The law will protect my AH's right to kill himself. At this point, down to 130 lbs. (he's 5'8") and covered in bruises, welts, and cuts, and babbling incoherently at all hours, I don't think intervention is an option. Sad, but true ...
He has been hospitalized THREE times this past week; once by me and twice by the sheriff's department. That's how bad off he is. A psychiatrist and psychologist both admitted AH is incompetent; however, he does not fall under "Title 36" of this state to be adjudged incompetent. Why? Because his dementia is due to acute alcohol addiction, not an actual mental illness.
I believe interventions can work. A competent interventionist CAN be successful. In my case, it would be a crap shoot. The law will protect my AH's right to kill himself. At this point, down to 130 lbs. (he's 5'8") and covered in bruises, welts, and cuts, and babbling incoherently at all hours, I don't think intervention is an option. Sad, but true ...
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... and with regard to them having some sobriety first ...
I also want to add that last June, AH was in a 28-day rehab. It was a top-notch facility. He admitted he was an A, he got a temporary sponsor, he appeared to be working a program. The key word here is "appeared." I knew two week's into the program, that he was just blowing smoke up all the counselors' respective wazoos.
I recently read a book written by a former A who is an interventionist. He is a strong proponent of this method; however, he does mention that the earlier in the disease the intervention is staged, the better the chances of recovery.
Three detox/rehabs ... AH was back out boozing within a month each time. We can move heaven and earth .... sometimes they just don't want help.
I've done all I could to get him help, the medics tried, the hospital staff tried, the addictions counselors tried, the VA tried, and this past week two deputy sheriff's stood in my living room giving it their best shot. I'd say EVERYBODY in the system has done all they can. It stinks, but my conscience is clear. It's up to God now - AH is in His hands. I finally truly understand the meaning of "Let Go and Let God."
Sure hasn't been "fun" learning it though ...
I recently read a book written by a former A who is an interventionist. He is a strong proponent of this method; however, he does mention that the earlier in the disease the intervention is staged, the better the chances of recovery.
Three detox/rehabs ... AH was back out boozing within a month each time. We can move heaven and earth .... sometimes they just don't want help.
I've done all I could to get him help, the medics tried, the hospital staff tried, the addictions counselors tried, the VA tried, and this past week two deputy sheriff's stood in my living room giving it their best shot. I'd say EVERYBODY in the system has done all they can. It stinks, but my conscience is clear. It's up to God now - AH is in His hands. I finally truly understand the meaning of "Let Go and Let God."
Sure hasn't been "fun" learning it though ...
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