I set myself up
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Charleston S.C.
Posts: 1,461
I set myself up
Hi Everyone, I have not posted for awhile. I've been to busy doing what I shouldn't do. With all the talk about the Vietnam War, I had some flashbacks. Not only what happened but, the way I was treated when I returned. I served honorably in Vietnam but, due to statements from some of the anti-war groups, I had to defend myself about being a baby killer. I don't want to point fingers, I just want to state my feelings. Those that know my story understand how, as hard as I tried I could never get my fathers approval. He died while I was in the service. I went to Vietnam, and did the best I could to serve my country. When I returned I expected to recieve pats on the back, and approval for my service. Instead, I couldn't wear my uniform without being called horrible names. I didn't admit for years to others that I served in Vietnam. I found myself getting angry again. Like it was yesterday. I got involved by send in letters to the Metro Newspaper about how much the statements made by John Kerry when he returned. The worst thing that happened was to be called a baby killer. Why? Because I felt I was one. I was involved in loading the Napom Bombs. The enemy at the time was faceless, so we did our duty, sometime putting notes on the bombs. Then, I think it was summer of 68, Time magazine had a picture of a young girl with her clothes and skin burned of by Napom. That picture has stayed with me for years. Friends and family would say, " Hey, you were doing your duty. I have been walking around as a sober angry person. John Kerry and all the talk has brought this all back. I had pushed that image back and, I thought and moved on. I know our planes tried to avoid civilian targets but, the North Vietnamese would set up in the villages and use women and children to kill Americans. I saw villages where the North Vietnamise killed all the school teachers, all the leaders, anyone they thought might be a threat. I'm not trying to put someones candidate down. Please this was and is a very real issue with many Veterans from the Vietnam War. Many of us at the VA, still talk about feeling ashamed for serving our country. The fact is, set aside the politics and many of us were there to stop what I mentioned above. I have been waking up in tears from seeing that poor little girl. This might be why I enjoy working at Children's Hospital so much. Without realizing it maybe I'm trying to make up for the children I might have killed. I know I can't but, I'm confused right now with the mixed emotions I have. I want to move on but, I want to speak out and
be able to say, " My name is Don W and I served honorably in Vietnam", you people were wrong to call me baby killer. Thanks for listening to me rant. Don W
be able to say, " My name is Don W and I served honorably in Vietnam", you people were wrong to call me baby killer. Thanks for listening to me rant. Don W
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Hi Don
I don't often post here but your thread touched my heart.
As you probably know I am a Canadian, but I lived right on the border of Michigan and had as many American friends as I did Canadian, all at the right age for Viet Nam. Some stayed in school to avoid making a choice, some came to Canada to avoid the draft, and others went to serve.
Don, I have respect for all of them, but I believe I have more respect for those who went. War stinks, any war any place, any reason. But sometimes it takes a war to ensure peace and freedom. And WW2 was a fine example of what I am talking about. My father-in-law served and fought in North Africa and Italy and was in Holland when it was liberated. It took many years before he could release the pain and talk about some of the horrible things he saw and share that with me.
What I am trying to say Don, is that you served your country and did what soldiers do. Yes innocent people die, but more innocent people die when we close our eyes to tyrants.
If it matters, I am proud of you Don, for what you did. And I am sad for you, other vets and the innocents of war, who suffered because of what war is and does.
You served your country, Don, which means you served freedom.
Hugs
Ann
I don't often post here but your thread touched my heart.
As you probably know I am a Canadian, but I lived right on the border of Michigan and had as many American friends as I did Canadian, all at the right age for Viet Nam. Some stayed in school to avoid making a choice, some came to Canada to avoid the draft, and others went to serve.
Don, I have respect for all of them, but I believe I have more respect for those who went. War stinks, any war any place, any reason. But sometimes it takes a war to ensure peace and freedom. And WW2 was a fine example of what I am talking about. My father-in-law served and fought in North Africa and Italy and was in Holland when it was liberated. It took many years before he could release the pain and talk about some of the horrible things he saw and share that with me.
What I am trying to say Don, is that you served your country and did what soldiers do. Yes innocent people die, but more innocent people die when we close our eyes to tyrants.
If it matters, I am proud of you Don, for what you did. And I am sad for you, other vets and the innocents of war, who suffered because of what war is and does.
You served your country, Don, which means you served freedom.
Hugs
Ann
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
((((DON)))
I feel the same way Ann does. I was married to a highly decorated Vietman Vet. I did not understand what all of his medals were about cause he never would tell me. Later after I was divorced I found out that he was a true hero!!!
I knew he had been treated wrong when he came home and it was really bad for all you guys.
My xh protested the war too and was very relieved when it was over. I am so sorry you guys in Viet Nam got a bad shake. It wasn't right how you were treated. Even if the war was protested you guys should not have been shamed.
I feel the same way Ann does. I was married to a highly decorated Vietman Vet. I did not understand what all of his medals were about cause he never would tell me. Later after I was divorced I found out that he was a true hero!!!
I knew he had been treated wrong when he came home and it was really bad for all you guys.
My xh protested the war too and was very relieved when it was over. I am so sorry you guys in Viet Nam got a bad shake. It wasn't right how you were treated. Even if the war was protested you guys should not have been shamed.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: western canada
Posts: 1,441
Bless you Don....
The injustice of what was done to the returning Vietnam vets is beyond shameful.
I can't begin to imagine having to feel defensive for obeying your countries call to duty...
I'm also Canadian... but that doesn't stop me from realizing what a sacrifice you've made... and how shabbily you and your fellow soldiers have been treated...
It makes me very sad for you that your still carrying around that burden.
I pray to the ALL for you Don... that he heal your wounds... and allow you to go forward from today in peace... knowing that you did the best you could at the time ... an insane time in an insane country.
The injustice of what was done to the returning Vietnam vets is beyond shameful.
I can't begin to imagine having to feel defensive for obeying your countries call to duty...
I'm also Canadian... but that doesn't stop me from realizing what a sacrifice you've made... and how shabbily you and your fellow soldiers have been treated...
It makes me very sad for you that your still carrying around that burden.
I pray to the ALL for you Don... that he heal your wounds... and allow you to go forward from today in peace... knowing that you did the best you could at the time ... an insane time in an insane country.
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: It's raining again!
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((((((((((Don))))))))), I don't come here often either. I use to when I first got to SR. I had flash backs too with all the anti war stuff. Of course not what you had,but knowing someone I loved was in the war and having people degrade memories of heros. I hold on to the memories of my hero because that is all that is left. Nam was there in my young childhood. I don't remember much,but with memories such as yours keeps freedom alive and doing what is needed at the time an honor. You can think you might have done something such as hurting babies,but today you are helping them and that's what counts! (((((((((((huggys to a hero))))))))))
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: It's raining again!
Posts: 2,494
Hey Don, I'm going to try not to cry when I write this because my kids are up and about. But I figured I'd finish telling my hero's story and part of my own being I had a major flash back. I think I told you before my dad's name was Don. When I first got into recovery, I told the shrinks about my Dad's priminition of his death and about my preminition too. They sat me down and told me that after telling my story,that they where sorry to say my dad commited suiside and that I did not have a priminition and my Dad was taking care of things so everyone would be taken care of because he did not feel worth much and he was addicted to pain medication and other drugs. I cried big time thinking great "I now had two parents that where nuts,so I'm nuts too" They tried to tell me that I might be suisidal too because it runs in the family. Don I'v never felt suisidle in my life and it freaked me out. The power of words are a funny thing. Anyway after thinking about things for years (and I know you love facts) every one left out the tire marks from the brakes that went on for yards and yards. Someone predesten to kill themselves would not have put on the brakes, or he changed his mind. Perhaps my dad was strung out and fell alseep... Lots of theyriorys right! When it was time for my dad's furneral I did not want to see his body. I was scard because I never saw a dead body up close before and I wanted my memories of my dad alive. My little sisters kept pulling my hand to "come and see daddy sleep", so for them I went. It put me in shock even more. My dad broke every bone in his body and dam it, they brushed his hair wrong! I then went on to blame myself for his death because if I would not have found him,he would still be alive because he felt so much guilt in leaving his first born kids. He wanted to go back to my mother and i told him that he could not do to my little sisters what he did to me and my brother. I always felt if I kept my mouth shut,thigs would have been different. Looking back now, I realized that he bought the plot and insurances for both him and my St. Mom, he was making a life time commentment to my St. Mother even though it was a short one. People will try to convence everyone of something even well meaning doctors or advocates or even ourselves. I think that it was no cawinka dink that our paths crossed. You helped me a great deal by having me remember things and be very proud of my hero. (((((((((((((((huggys))))))))))) and I hope that you'll let me think of you as a hero as well.
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Don,
I could go on and on about why you aren't responsible for the deaths of those lost in that war. Everything I would say would be true. I could tell you how much I appreciate what you did and yell about the people that gave you shame that didn't belong to you. I could tell you that you're a hero in my eyes, which would also be true. Not only in the war, but in your recovery from addiction and PTSD. I don't think any of that will help you work through this though.
You have a problem in the equation you are trying to solve. On one hand you can justify everything that happened as a soldier obeying orders. On the other hand as a caring, compassionate human being you can justify none of it.
The soldier wants to stand up for himself and wants to punch the people in the mouth for daring to call you names when you were risking your life to protect their sorry ass. The soldier did his job well and survived and provided an excellent service for a country that seemed to take it for granted. You had no choice as a soldier to obey the law and serve your country. How can they blame you. How can they dodge the draft and break the law and call you names? You had it drilled into you to have a certain mind set to win and survive the war. You acted in the way you were trained to act. You kicked in your survival training and went into fight mode. People became the enemy. They had to be separated out as the enemy in your mind. And yes the innocent women and children were also the enemy because they were serious threats to your survival. All this is justified and a part of war. You can't sugar coat war. You can be justified and angry about all of this.
On the other hand you can't find a way to justify any of it. The compassionate, caring human being is mortified that he had a part in the deaths and suffering of innocent women and children. The Don that cares so much for others and would probably give his life for a child cannot accept what he has done. How can you live with yourself knowing that a child is possibly no longer here or suffered because of your direct actions. This Don now feels that he deserves nothing and should be punished for his actions by beating himself with guilt and shame. This Don knows that those who called him a baby killer were right and agrees with what they said. This Don reminds himself daily of his deeds by going over and over a tragic image of a burned child and tortures himself for it. It doesn't matter if it is true or not. What matters is that a part of you believes it's true. That part of you is trying to hide behind the soldier and the victimization of that soldier. That is the only way you know how to justify it and make it go away. That is the way you are trying to heal.
Let me make myself very clear. I do not blame you for any of this, but I know you blame yourself and I know you will never be able to let go of that self blame until you accept what you feel is your responsibility in all of this.
How did I draw this conclusion? Let me share my war and shame with you.
I found my husband hanging in my bedroom closet. His knees were 2 inches off the ground. All he had to do was stand up to save himself. The horror of that image still haunts me to this day. I couldn't open a closet for many many years after that. I tortured myself with that image for years. It became my job to keep everyone alive after that. After all it was my fault that he died. My actions caused his death.
How did I try to live with it. I was in my own personal war. He beat me every day for 6 years. I was only 22. I did horrible things that hurt him because it was the only way I knew how to survive that personal war. His family blamed me for his death and so did others. It made me outrageously angry. They didn't know he beat me. They didn't know how horrible he treated me. How dare they blame me. I tried every trick in my little bag to justify my direct actions that added to the pain that killed him. The survivor in me could justify it. I wouldn't blame anyone else for the same actions in the same situation. I went on an on for years doing this. It didn't work.
It didn't work because the human in me that loved him could not accept what I did that hurt him. I finally had to accept a wrong that I could not right. I had to grieve my own actions with sincere remorse before my God. I was a part of a horrible death in my eyes and I couldn't fix it and make that go away.
You know what Don? God forgave me and loved me anyway and I was able to almost forgive myself and I'm still working on that. I did the best I could do in a horrible situation. So did you Don. There is no condemnation Don. You are loved and forgiven and you are able to love others more because you know your own limitations and your own weaknesses. This makes you a non-judgmental person that can reach into the heart of others.
Your greatest pain and suffering has become your greatest gift. Accept it. Grieve through it and let it go to a God that loves you.
Everything I've said is with lots of love and tears for you Don. I hope that none of it is taken wrong.
Huge hugs,
MG
I could go on and on about why you aren't responsible for the deaths of those lost in that war. Everything I would say would be true. I could tell you how much I appreciate what you did and yell about the people that gave you shame that didn't belong to you. I could tell you that you're a hero in my eyes, which would also be true. Not only in the war, but in your recovery from addiction and PTSD. I don't think any of that will help you work through this though.
You have a problem in the equation you are trying to solve. On one hand you can justify everything that happened as a soldier obeying orders. On the other hand as a caring, compassionate human being you can justify none of it.
The soldier wants to stand up for himself and wants to punch the people in the mouth for daring to call you names when you were risking your life to protect their sorry ass. The soldier did his job well and survived and provided an excellent service for a country that seemed to take it for granted. You had no choice as a soldier to obey the law and serve your country. How can they blame you. How can they dodge the draft and break the law and call you names? You had it drilled into you to have a certain mind set to win and survive the war. You acted in the way you were trained to act. You kicked in your survival training and went into fight mode. People became the enemy. They had to be separated out as the enemy in your mind. And yes the innocent women and children were also the enemy because they were serious threats to your survival. All this is justified and a part of war. You can't sugar coat war. You can be justified and angry about all of this.
On the other hand you can't find a way to justify any of it. The compassionate, caring human being is mortified that he had a part in the deaths and suffering of innocent women and children. The Don that cares so much for others and would probably give his life for a child cannot accept what he has done. How can you live with yourself knowing that a child is possibly no longer here or suffered because of your direct actions. This Don now feels that he deserves nothing and should be punished for his actions by beating himself with guilt and shame. This Don knows that those who called him a baby killer were right and agrees with what they said. This Don reminds himself daily of his deeds by going over and over a tragic image of a burned child and tortures himself for it. It doesn't matter if it is true or not. What matters is that a part of you believes it's true. That part of you is trying to hide behind the soldier and the victimization of that soldier. That is the only way you know how to justify it and make it go away. That is the way you are trying to heal.
Let me make myself very clear. I do not blame you for any of this, but I know you blame yourself and I know you will never be able to let go of that self blame until you accept what you feel is your responsibility in all of this.
How did I draw this conclusion? Let me share my war and shame with you.
I found my husband hanging in my bedroom closet. His knees were 2 inches off the ground. All he had to do was stand up to save himself. The horror of that image still haunts me to this day. I couldn't open a closet for many many years after that. I tortured myself with that image for years. It became my job to keep everyone alive after that. After all it was my fault that he died. My actions caused his death.
How did I try to live with it. I was in my own personal war. He beat me every day for 6 years. I was only 22. I did horrible things that hurt him because it was the only way I knew how to survive that personal war. His family blamed me for his death and so did others. It made me outrageously angry. They didn't know he beat me. They didn't know how horrible he treated me. How dare they blame me. I tried every trick in my little bag to justify my direct actions that added to the pain that killed him. The survivor in me could justify it. I wouldn't blame anyone else for the same actions in the same situation. I went on an on for years doing this. It didn't work.
It didn't work because the human in me that loved him could not accept what I did that hurt him. I finally had to accept a wrong that I could not right. I had to grieve my own actions with sincere remorse before my God. I was a part of a horrible death in my eyes and I couldn't fix it and make that go away.
You know what Don? God forgave me and loved me anyway and I was able to almost forgive myself and I'm still working on that. I did the best I could do in a horrible situation. So did you Don. There is no condemnation Don. You are loved and forgiven and you are able to love others more because you know your own limitations and your own weaknesses. This makes you a non-judgmental person that can reach into the heart of others.
Your greatest pain and suffering has become your greatest gift. Accept it. Grieve through it and let it go to a God that loves you.
Everything I've said is with lots of love and tears for you Don. I hope that none of it is taken wrong.
Huge hugs,
MG
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Charleston S.C.
Posts: 1,461
Hi Eveyone, thank you for your kind words. I was reading your stories and couldn't help but to be able to see my pains reflecting in your pain. Morning Glory, you are right on target with your discriptions. I, like all of you, must believe that this pain is being felt on the way out of the darkness called PTSD. As sad as your posting were to read, I couldn't help but, feel hope. I've never expressed before some of the things I said in my posting. The only way I can deal with it is to continue to do what we've all been doing. I'm going to talk about this in my group on Friday. I also feel many of you also are expressing things for the first time. Do you find a new door opens when you express some hidden feeling? I don't feel as angry as I did yesterday. Althouh I can feel it just below the surface. I have to go but, I'll post Thursday. I want to read and think about the encouragement and advice you all have given me. Love and Prayers, Don W
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The hardest things to talk about are the things that have shame and guilt attached to them. These are really hard issues to face.
I'm sure glad we have each other. I've talked about things here that I've held in for almost 30 years. What a burden we carry. If we keep working on it we'll be free one day. There is a lot of hope!!
Hugs,
MG
I'm sure glad we have each other. I've talked about things here that I've held in for almost 30 years. What a burden we carry. If we keep working on it we'll be free one day. There is a lot of hope!!
Hugs,
MG
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Charleston S.C.
Posts: 1,461
Hi Everyone, I hope you are all well. I'm doing better but, still have some things to process. I will be going to my group at the VA Friday. I'll be sharing the advice with my counselor at the VA. I am going to show her your post MG, I'm not sure I can explain any better than you did what's going on in this head of mine. I'll post later Friday. I have been turning to prayer to help me through this. I think some of my prayers have been answered through you guys. Thanks, don W
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Don, here is another part to my story in relation to my hero. he got a 21 gun salute when he died. My dad was catholic and being the my St. Mom was of a different faith, she did put any crosses up for my dad. I took off my cross and threw it in the grave with my dad. I was told by a shrink that I threw away my religion with my dad. That was not true at all. I wanted my dad to keep his releigion with him I did't want him to be alone. Anyway wierd part of it is is that when I first went into recovery, I was at a place that had a priest. He and I sat down and talked about a few things. He gave me an exersizm! Scard the crap out of me. I did't know I was evil or full of evil. I thought I beleived in God to keep me safe from evil. Sometimes Don, I just don't know what to think about things. Who is trying to help,who is full of it... The older I grow the more I kind of figure things out. Thing is is that the man I called God is and always was with me in during evil times. I guess I would not be alive today if I did not have someone look out after me. My mother believed in angels and talked about them while she was dying last year. LOL, a shrink asked me if my mother saw them. I said no,but she felt them all around her. He said did you feel them, I said no alls I felt was scard out of my mind! I'm kind of afraid of goast or angels because you don't know if they are good or bad. I just kind of stick with God and let every thing else do thier own thing. I never discount anything because you never know,but I stick with the big guy. We argue a lot (lol, No I don't hear voices),just quiet thoughts when I'm not mouthing off or dreams that tell me things. Sometimes I even get a preminition while wide awake and it scares me to no end! I'm bonkers Don,but I'm not a nut. Things happen for a reason and sometimes there is no ryme or reason. It just is.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
If you love your freedom…thank a Vet
Don
Thank you for my freedom. Thank you Sir
there are bike runs and there are bike runs.
The only run I look for and be sure I will be on is the one that will go from Everett to Worchester this Saturday.
Vietnam Vets annual motrocycle run to the Vietnam wall in Worchester.
The first ever bike run I was on was this run. My son in Iraq at the time, my brother who also served in Nam... I couldn't think of a better way to show my support and to give honor to those of you who have served. Proceeds from this run are used for veteran’s outreach programs in our area. Each state or area of a state holds their own runs, nationwide.
Late in the coming but am glad that the people of this country did come to realize what each individual has done by their service to our country.
When Johnnie comes marching home …Let us give him a hearty welcome then Hurrah Hurrah
Again I say thank you Don
Thank you for my freedom. Thank you Sir
there are bike runs and there are bike runs.
The only run I look for and be sure I will be on is the one that will go from Everett to Worchester this Saturday.
Vietnam Vets annual motrocycle run to the Vietnam wall in Worchester.
The first ever bike run I was on was this run. My son in Iraq at the time, my brother who also served in Nam... I couldn't think of a better way to show my support and to give honor to those of you who have served. Proceeds from this run are used for veteran’s outreach programs in our area. Each state or area of a state holds their own runs, nationwide.
Late in the coming but am glad that the people of this country did come to realize what each individual has done by their service to our country.
When Johnnie comes marching home …Let us give him a hearty welcome then Hurrah Hurrah
Again I say thank you Don
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Forgiveness
Thinking on forgiveness
Remembering the first Sunday in Nov of 99. (3rd Sunday of a return to church in over 25 years) As I sat in church service and the offer was given for those wishing to receive communion please come forward. In my thoughts were mixed feelings. So many horrid sins in my past. The remembering of hypocrites I had seen in churches of my youth. At that moment I made a commitment… I will not be one of those hypocrites I remember. Even if I am the only one who doesn’t get up for communion…enough is enough. I am a changed man from this day on. My thoughts….
Well Lord I will sit here unless I fully know that I am forgiven for all my sins and till I know I will not ever take communion.
I wasn’t looking for an answer at that moment but did I ever get one. I felt such a warmth surround my heart. What felt like hands holding my heart and a calm that said all is forgiven…YES ALL.
If the Lord can forgive David of the bible and Saul who became Paul and then even in this day…the Lord can forgive me…
I know fully in my heart that when anyone who shall ask of Him…ALL our sins are forgiven. A frightened wife, a soldier who followed orders and served as was told. An alcoholic or addict who has repented and started anew to change.
Even a man on death row can be forgiven if they ask from their heart.
The Lord has forgiven me…I know He will forgive all others.
Some who may not be guilty still carry the guilt anyways. He will take that guilt from us as well. All we need do is ask.
What I have been forgiven of… 43 years of sins collected. A bag filled to the rim and carried with me all the days. I carry that bag no more. Forgiven and taken from me. Cast into a sea so deep they can never be retrieved.
Remembering the first Sunday in Nov of 99. (3rd Sunday of a return to church in over 25 years) As I sat in church service and the offer was given for those wishing to receive communion please come forward. In my thoughts were mixed feelings. So many horrid sins in my past. The remembering of hypocrites I had seen in churches of my youth. At that moment I made a commitment… I will not be one of those hypocrites I remember. Even if I am the only one who doesn’t get up for communion…enough is enough. I am a changed man from this day on. My thoughts….
Well Lord I will sit here unless I fully know that I am forgiven for all my sins and till I know I will not ever take communion.
I wasn’t looking for an answer at that moment but did I ever get one. I felt such a warmth surround my heart. What felt like hands holding my heart and a calm that said all is forgiven…YES ALL.
If the Lord can forgive David of the bible and Saul who became Paul and then even in this day…the Lord can forgive me…
I know fully in my heart that when anyone who shall ask of Him…ALL our sins are forgiven. A frightened wife, a soldier who followed orders and served as was told. An alcoholic or addict who has repented and started anew to change.
Even a man on death row can be forgiven if they ask from their heart.
The Lord has forgiven me…I know He will forgive all others.
Some who may not be guilty still carry the guilt anyways. He will take that guilt from us as well. All we need do is ask.
What I have been forgiven of… 43 years of sins collected. A bag filled to the rim and carried with me all the days. I carry that bag no more. Forgiven and taken from me. Cast into a sea so deep they can never be retrieved.
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