michaelj

Over the past few days the thread on 'Real Recovery" caught my attention and I posted a reply which got some reaction. I dropped out of the discussion once the trump card of religion was played to deny a rational argument. The decision to quit was my choice and one I am happy with. What I am unhappy with is the post today by Danpf in which he castigates those who posted replies for their 'infantile' behaviour.
OK the post veered away from the matter at hand; can a recovery be real if you continue to use stimulants such as caffeine. Surely we can choose for ourselves whether a thread is appropriate for our responses. I decided to drop out, so can any of us.
It is almost inevitable that a popular thread will meander over a number of subjects and take unexpected twists and turns. The seeming lack of focus is one of the endearing facets of sites such as this. Once you start reading a thread you simply have no idea where you will be taken.
Any site such as this needs intelligent and respecful moderation by site administrators and facillitators but it does not need strictly prescriptive rules on content and breadth of discussion. In my experience the staff (if I may call them that) operate with an exceptionally light touch and deserve great credit for their work.
Speaking for myself I get great support and comfort from this site. I need to be able to reach out now and then for help and I also believe that I can help others through sharing my experiences with alcoholic addiction and sobriety. What I don't need and certainly don't want is to worry over whether someone is sitting in judgment on the reality of my experiences. In my belief we all recover in a way that is unique to us. My addiction resembles another's in only the most superficial way. Because of this inate individuality 'real' sobriety is a purely subjective matter and can not be defined by anyone else purely because he or she will in turn be using subjective criteria.
Judge not lest ye be judged, people in glass houses etc etc...oh dear,are these limits on free expression?

CarolD

Keeps me in sobriety.

Five

er, can you rephrase that Carol mate?

FaeryQueen

Hey Michael. I have learned that other people's opinions of me really aren't any of my business.

Anyone judging you is not defining you, but defining themselves as someone who needs to judge.....
Wayne Dyer

I love your posts...please keep your insight and experiences coming.

Love
Tanya

CarolD

I do my best to enjoy sobriety...and avoid bS.

equus

I think the forum rules pretty much have it covered. As it's a private website it seems fair that how those rules are applied to be at the admins discretion.

I think if there's an issue it's also reasonable to raise it with a moderator. That's pretty much my take on it.

Mind you sometimes I think the manners of good debating are worth keeping as well - but that's just a personal viewpoint and not evryone cares.

Don S

I wouldn't. I believe they're all volunteers, which is a point worth remembering.

Good points, michael!

best

And we all recover at a faster pace or slower pace then each other as well.
For some, the lesson of respect for others is slow at coming. When a thread goes off subject and "opinions" get posted, I see that many learn from that. I know I have. It has helped me grow in the area of respect for others and tolerance towards others.

Take what you want and leave the rest... Sure does work wonders for me.
Sifting through opinions, you can find the info and support you look for.

doorknob

Don't ya love that?

DK

Peter

And as I may have stated ina previous thread. "Recovery is not a quantifiable commodity"

We cannot appoint ourselves judges over the quality of another persons recovery.

jmhs002

See above - my thoughts exactly!

nocellphone

Great post, michael! Thanks for your wisdom!

Ngokpa

Addictive people are often compulsive and opinionated. I'm finding it easier to be caffeine free these days, but don't feel I need to be more-recovered-than-thou about it. We all have our battles, and as long as we agree drinking isn't good, what the hell. But folks will be folks. Just like in an AA meeting, you find wisdom and control trips and nuttyness, sometimes in the same sentence.

It's good to raise objections where you wish, but folks will be folks. A spiritual teacher of mine says the people who push our buttons are our best teachers, because we learn patience while squirming.

best

You think? Well let me tell you what I think about that *LOL*
Don't remember when it happened but at some point, my opinion (or neet to share it) slowed down greatly.

Five

One of the things, and one of which I have contributed to in part (through need, I feel) is that SR is becoming an opinon battleground. This makes me sad, and I only try to be opinoted when I feel that a bit of reasoning would help the person. There is a split in recovery, whether people acknowledge it or not (check out the larger internet) between AA philosiphy and the more scientific out look. It was in the mail. I think the recovery movement is changing, and I have no idea for the better.

Clashes of belief make me feel ill - they pose moral dilemas and a feeling of dis-ease amongst my fellow recoveryites.

Freedom of speech is great, opinions are great, but how long I can be opinoted is not long as I seem to try and have respect for everyone, no matter what there choice. At the end of the day I will say what I believe, but I will always try and comprimise, think things through, and consider that opinons do influence others.

Surmon over.

Don S

I don't think it's any more so than in the past, Five. I remember some epic threads, and some periods when the tone was much more cutting. Your posts are very useful; please don't underestimate yourself or your contributions to these forums, ok?

cleaninghouse

Michaelj

I hope you continue posting as well. You know religion is often one of the most abused instruments of those who seek to exercise control over others. After all, how do you combat God almighty? Problem is I thinking knowing God almighty and what the infinite force might really think. I don't believe I have ever run into anyone in my life time that was able to convince me that he or she had an inside track on that.

For me and my recovery, I found the God of my understanding, my spirituality and my personal belief system. It works for me, I have been sober for years. If you or someone else tried it, you may be drunk within hours, who knows. I have found that if a personal is sober, their doing it right. If they are not, their doing it wrong. If your personal spiritual belief system enables you to get and stay sober, then tell everyone else to take a flying leap. Honestly, it is really none of their business. Funny when it comes to this subject, so many forget the wisdom imparted in Step 4 and the admonition to stay on one's own side of the street. HAPPY SOBRIETY..

Dan

Great post Michael.
I'd take it even further and suggest that sobriety, without any qualifier whatsoever, is subjective.

Until your blood flows in my veins and the exact electrical impulses of your brain fire my own synapses, attempting to judge anything about you, including your sobriety, is at best a waste of time, and at worse grossly arrogant.

Plus, it's not very polite

Five

Thanks mate.

brigid

We have had "political correctness" go wild in Australia over the last ten years and quite frankly although I approve of limiting the very disparaging remarks of some people, I don't like that people are always trying to limit their opinions before they open their mouths. Words actually don't break bones or heads or anything that can't be fixed.

If people don't say something then how do they work out if it is valid or not and isn't it great to have an opinion and debate it. I'm into free speech for all. It is ok to ignore stuff if you don't like it and it is ok not to agree.

Good points Michael!

love brigid