Faith Based Programs
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Faith Based Programs
The new administration in Washington has shown it's support by pushing for funding of "Faith Based Programs." These programs for the most part are not regulated or licensed. I also wonder if it does not send the message on some level that alcoholism is viewed as a "moral" problem. What are your thoughts about this?
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Hello again John,
Big Book again page: xxiii The Doctor's Opinion.
Read tradition 7 in the 12 steps and 12 traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous.
If you dont have this book open up the telephone book and look under A.A. you will find numbers to call and they will be able to tell you where you can purchase this book.
Big Book again page: xxiii The Doctor's Opinion.
Read tradition 7 in the 12 steps and 12 traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous.
If you dont have this book open up the telephone book and look under A.A. you will find numbers to call and they will be able to tell you where you can purchase this book.
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Styloebetoe
Thanks for your comments and AA resources. I am very familiar with both the steps and traditions and use them in my life every day.What I am really interested in is people's opinions regarding providing treatment services in "faith based" programs that are often times unlicenced. Also what is your opinion regarding national funding of these programs and finally does this give a message to the general public that alcoholism is a "moral" problem? What do you think?
Thanks for your comments and AA resources. I am very familiar with both the steps and traditions and use them in my life every day.What I am really interested in is people's opinions regarding providing treatment services in "faith based" programs that are often times unlicenced. Also what is your opinion regarding national funding of these programs and finally does this give a message to the general public that alcoholism is a "moral" problem? What do you think?
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Plainfield, New Jersey USA
Posts: 491
John, I have witnessed the prison system become overwhelmed with non-violent offenders with mandatory minimum sentences that are outrageous. The number is up to 2 million incarcerated. Now, I am a believer in NA/AA self-help meetings but I also realize that alcohol and other drug abuse is a sin as well as a disease after addiction is achieved. The government is policing sin. Now isn't that the obligation of the faith community. The government has taken on sin and the related disorders when in fact the faith community should and could take care of the attitudes and behaviors. The faith community has certified pastoral addiction counselors, licensed certified social workers and certified alcohol and drug counselors available if they take on the task. You know as well as I do that a licensing is necessary to provide and evaluate quality care being given. The faith based initiative by Pres. Bush and company, I have no idea how that would work or if it would be beneficial to the addiction community. If you are not aware, there is an organization called Alcoholic Victorious that is a twelve step program similar to NA/AA self-help meetings that is Christian oriented and responds to the needs of faith community needs. This is not enough but it is a start. I hope my reponse has been helpful.
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Pernell
Thanks for your comments. I could not agree more. All addicts and alcoholics, including myself, who work a twelve step program understand the importance of having a strong spiritual program. It is the basis for recovery. I also know there are many good programs out there that are "faith based" and that do wonderful work at helping people recover. My big concern with the administrations push to fund faith based programs is that very few of these programs have chosen to meet licensing requirements that other programs must meet. I am concerned that some quality of care issues may be overlooked or worse yet that some addicyts and alcoholics may even be harmed as a result. I am also concerned that it gives the unspoken message to the country at large that addiction is "soley" a moral problem. I understand and believe addiction to be a disease that is bio(medical)psychosocial and spiritual in nature. I hope that we can take what is known to be true and well researched and use it to improve care for all addicts and alcoholics in this country.
Finally, I am glad that you mention the incrediable number of nonviolent drug and alcohol offenders that have been jailed with little or no help given to them regarding addiction and recovery! It is a crime for our society to treat people with a disease in this manner.
Thanks for your comments. I could not agree more. All addicts and alcoholics, including myself, who work a twelve step program understand the importance of having a strong spiritual program. It is the basis for recovery. I also know there are many good programs out there that are "faith based" and that do wonderful work at helping people recover. My big concern with the administrations push to fund faith based programs is that very few of these programs have chosen to meet licensing requirements that other programs must meet. I am concerned that some quality of care issues may be overlooked or worse yet that some addicyts and alcoholics may even be harmed as a result. I am also concerned that it gives the unspoken message to the country at large that addiction is "soley" a moral problem. I understand and believe addiction to be a disease that is bio(medical)psychosocial and spiritual in nature. I hope that we can take what is known to be true and well researched and use it to improve care for all addicts and alcoholics in this country.
Finally, I am glad that you mention the incrediable number of nonviolent drug and alcohol offenders that have been jailed with little or no help given to them regarding addiction and recovery! It is a crime for our society to treat people with a disease in this manner.
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I think that it is important to make the distinction between faith based religion and spirituality - those of us that have been in AA awhile know the difference, but society on the whole is likely to be clueless. Also, the traditions of AA are clear - we are not affiliated...
And to the thought of prisons being filled with non-violent offenders, we shouldn't forget that many commit non-violent crimes to support their habit. Many repeat drunk drivers kill people. They are in prison for a reason. California has just enacted a law that now gives the courts major leg room to sentence drug/alcohol offenders to formal recovery facilities. My personal belief comes from my personal experience: unless someone wants recovery the courts will just be giving them a way to stay out from behind bars. I sponsor such an individual (at least I used to...) who thumbs his nose at the judge. He uses daily but "graduated" the court ordered rehab. This is why I fired the sponsee. Calif. is so screwed up in this regard that they allocated no money to impose drug testing on these individuals some judge gave a get-out-of-jail-free card to.
The government should stay out of recovery, just as adopting religion should not be a requirement of recovery -- it's a personal choice which higher power we choose. There is nothing immoral about having a chemical/psychological addiction to drugs/alcohol. Damn any christian that tries to tell me otherwise, and I'm a God certified, bible carryin' christian!
And to the thought of prisons being filled with non-violent offenders, we shouldn't forget that many commit non-violent crimes to support their habit. Many repeat drunk drivers kill people. They are in prison for a reason. California has just enacted a law that now gives the courts major leg room to sentence drug/alcohol offenders to formal recovery facilities. My personal belief comes from my personal experience: unless someone wants recovery the courts will just be giving them a way to stay out from behind bars. I sponsor such an individual (at least I used to...) who thumbs his nose at the judge. He uses daily but "graduated" the court ordered rehab. This is why I fired the sponsee. Calif. is so screwed up in this regard that they allocated no money to impose drug testing on these individuals some judge gave a get-out-of-jail-free card to.
The government should stay out of recovery, just as adopting religion should not be a requirement of recovery -- it's a personal choice which higher power we choose. There is nothing immoral about having a chemical/psychological addiction to drugs/alcohol. Damn any christian that tries to tell me otherwise, and I'm a God certified, bible carryin' christian!
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Krazy Bob:
Again thanks for your reply. I am happy to hear that you, like myself feel there is a big difference in spirituality and religion. This is what the program has taught me. I could not agree more that the government should not seek to confuse the general public in this matter of supporting faith based programs.
As for the other comments reguarding putting addicts behind bars, well, I feel strongly that non-violent offenders should be given an option of treatment either in jail or out. Both should be followed with strong monitoring policies, ie- compliance with aftercare, meeting attendance, and drug screening. I want to see addicts and alcoholics get well. I am not for get out of jail free cards!
Again thanks for your reply. I am happy to hear that you, like myself feel there is a big difference in spirituality and religion. This is what the program has taught me. I could not agree more that the government should not seek to confuse the general public in this matter of supporting faith based programs.
As for the other comments reguarding putting addicts behind bars, well, I feel strongly that non-violent offenders should be given an option of treatment either in jail or out. Both should be followed with strong monitoring policies, ie- compliance with aftercare, meeting attendance, and drug screening. I want to see addicts and alcoholics get well. I am not for get out of jail free cards!
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John,
We agree on many things. I too agree that alcoholics that want to get sober could be afforded the chance to do it. But as I've stated I am against California's blanket policy of sentencing the offender to rehab. If it isn't the offenders choice, what will the success rate be? Yes, there should be strong aftercare and monitoring. Without them we're spinning our wheels and creating an opportunity for those to stay out of jail with impunity.
California really dropped the ball when the voters passed the law. The voters don't have a clue, it would seem, that only a person ready for recovery will likely benefit from a rehab. Plus, they didn't allocate the funds for mandatory testing. Why send them to rehab if they may not want to sober up, and then have no way to verify that they are, in fact, clean and sober? It doesn't make sense.
But -- God bless those that want what we have and are truly willing to go to any length to get it. I've seen very few court card visitors make it, but those that have serve as proof that our Higher Power works in mysterious ways.
We agree on many things. I too agree that alcoholics that want to get sober could be afforded the chance to do it. But as I've stated I am against California's blanket policy of sentencing the offender to rehab. If it isn't the offenders choice, what will the success rate be? Yes, there should be strong aftercare and monitoring. Without them we're spinning our wheels and creating an opportunity for those to stay out of jail with impunity.
California really dropped the ball when the voters passed the law. The voters don't have a clue, it would seem, that only a person ready for recovery will likely benefit from a rehab. Plus, they didn't allocate the funds for mandatory testing. Why send them to rehab if they may not want to sober up, and then have no way to verify that they are, in fact, clean and sober? It doesn't make sense.
But -- God bless those that want what we have and are truly willing to go to any length to get it. I've seen very few court card visitors make it, but those that have serve as proof that our Higher Power works in mysterious ways.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Plainfield, New Jersey USA
Posts: 491
Krazy Bob, you waiting for me,good. Let me run this by you.
Advertising campaigns specifically targeted at African-Americancommunities attempt to delude us into thinking that smoking or drinking will make us more prestigious, smart, attrative or popular. Research has shown that we as African Americans spend an inordinate amount of time in front of the television set. Therefore, we are disproportionately exposed to television's grandiose, yet false, and ultimately harmful message; that grave personal problems can be effectively resolved in thirty minutes or less. What if there were a drug that could chemically induce feelings of upper-classness, it would be a lot like crack.
In recent years, "addiction" has become an extremely popular term for describing a wide range of behaviors formerly called "sins." Many would agree that defining sin is best left up to the religious communities, but convergence of religion and science in the 12 step recovery movement has brought us full circle to a most pernicious trap called "addictive disease."
The common meaning of "sin" in America is "an offense against God or religious law, or a state of separation from God." Among the religious denominations, ones with more liberal theologies trust the person's subjective relationship to God as the final guidance in matters of personal conduct. As a general rule, the more fundamentalist religion is and the more it relies upon the objective content of scriptures, the more objectively "sin" is defined. The dynamic interplay of theology and politics is one of the most admirable aspects of the U.S. Constitution, which has been called "The Great American Experiment." Because of the separation of church and state, we have become a great nation--not so much in the economic sense, but in our ethical stance among nations.. that priceless separation insists that while laws may regulate behavior, sin cannot be objectively defined, and government has no business combating sin.
Alcoholic and drug abuse'dependence is a behavior that has been assigned the designation of a disease or the disease concept of addiction and still it has not been relegated to the physicians and clinicians but is subject to the law of the land and mandatory minimum sentences. It is the belief of this writer that the above described behavior is a sin and all of the relegated disorders and behaviors should be addressed by the religious community and the medical community i.e. American Society for Addiction Medicine.
Without question the African-American community is hit the hardest and disproportionately by what is called the disease of addiction(sin). The 12 step recovery group movement, however, has vaulted over the U.S. Constitution by disguising itself in treatment program for a disease epidemic. Sin-disease has infected the American consciousness to such an extent that the government has undertaken to stamp it out. Once again, our courts are hearing cases pertaining to sin, and sentences are being handed out requiring religious indoctrination.
A great, governemtn supported industry, the treatment community, wages war on sin-disease concept of addiction is an article of faith. The experts are divided having their doubts and confusion as the general public. Remember this, also that the addictive disease has been around for hundreds of years, but it became accepted only through strenuous propaganda efforts by the recovery group movement. In the absence of supporting evidence, the disease concept gains acceptance on other grounds.
Doctor's say it' so, and they should know. The American Medical Association says alcoholism and drug addiction are diseases. People in recovery, the survivors themselves say they have a disease. It is vital to the survival of alcoholics and drug addicts to accept that they have a disease, so that they may receive life-saving treatment. Challenging the disease idea is dangerous, resulting in suffering and death for others.
Employment in certain jobs and holding public office requires endorsement of the disease concept of addiction. One may receive leniency in court and be granted early parole from prison by admitting to addictive disease. Community program based on the disease model are more favorably reviewed and funded than if based on other concepts. Addicted people are told that unless they label themselves accordingly, they will die. Typically, they are under great stress, seeking anything that will help. Family members are told that addiction is a family disease that will destroy them all unless they admit they have it and get treatment.
The profit motive accounts for much of the enthusiasm for the disease concept of addiction. Addiction is an incurable, insurable disease. The addiction treatment industry and expansion of the 12 step recovery group movement into the money economy.
Advertising campaigns specifically targeted at African-Americancommunities attempt to delude us into thinking that smoking or drinking will make us more prestigious, smart, attrative or popular. Research has shown that we as African Americans spend an inordinate amount of time in front of the television set. Therefore, we are disproportionately exposed to television's grandiose, yet false, and ultimately harmful message; that grave personal problems can be effectively resolved in thirty minutes or less. What if there were a drug that could chemically induce feelings of upper-classness, it would be a lot like crack.
In recent years, "addiction" has become an extremely popular term for describing a wide range of behaviors formerly called "sins." Many would agree that defining sin is best left up to the religious communities, but convergence of religion and science in the 12 step recovery movement has brought us full circle to a most pernicious trap called "addictive disease."
The common meaning of "sin" in America is "an offense against God or religious law, or a state of separation from God." Among the religious denominations, ones with more liberal theologies trust the person's subjective relationship to God as the final guidance in matters of personal conduct. As a general rule, the more fundamentalist religion is and the more it relies upon the objective content of scriptures, the more objectively "sin" is defined. The dynamic interplay of theology and politics is one of the most admirable aspects of the U.S. Constitution, which has been called "The Great American Experiment." Because of the separation of church and state, we have become a great nation--not so much in the economic sense, but in our ethical stance among nations.. that priceless separation insists that while laws may regulate behavior, sin cannot be objectively defined, and government has no business combating sin.
Alcoholic and drug abuse'dependence is a behavior that has been assigned the designation of a disease or the disease concept of addiction and still it has not been relegated to the physicians and clinicians but is subject to the law of the land and mandatory minimum sentences. It is the belief of this writer that the above described behavior is a sin and all of the relegated disorders and behaviors should be addressed by the religious community and the medical community i.e. American Society for Addiction Medicine.
Without question the African-American community is hit the hardest and disproportionately by what is called the disease of addiction(sin). The 12 step recovery group movement, however, has vaulted over the U.S. Constitution by disguising itself in treatment program for a disease epidemic. Sin-disease has infected the American consciousness to such an extent that the government has undertaken to stamp it out. Once again, our courts are hearing cases pertaining to sin, and sentences are being handed out requiring religious indoctrination.
A great, governemtn supported industry, the treatment community, wages war on sin-disease concept of addiction is an article of faith. The experts are divided having their doubts and confusion as the general public. Remember this, also that the addictive disease has been around for hundreds of years, but it became accepted only through strenuous propaganda efforts by the recovery group movement. In the absence of supporting evidence, the disease concept gains acceptance on other grounds.
Doctor's say it' so, and they should know. The American Medical Association says alcoholism and drug addiction are diseases. People in recovery, the survivors themselves say they have a disease. It is vital to the survival of alcoholics and drug addicts to accept that they have a disease, so that they may receive life-saving treatment. Challenging the disease idea is dangerous, resulting in suffering and death for others.
Employment in certain jobs and holding public office requires endorsement of the disease concept of addiction. One may receive leniency in court and be granted early parole from prison by admitting to addictive disease. Community program based on the disease model are more favorably reviewed and funded than if based on other concepts. Addicted people are told that unless they label themselves accordingly, they will die. Typically, they are under great stress, seeking anything that will help. Family members are told that addiction is a family disease that will destroy them all unless they admit they have it and get treatment.
The profit motive accounts for much of the enthusiasm for the disease concept of addiction. Addiction is an incurable, insurable disease. The addiction treatment industry and expansion of the 12 step recovery group movement into the money economy.
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Originally posted by Pernell Johnson:
John, I have witnessed the prison system become overwhelmed with non-violent offenders with mandatory minimum sentences that are outrageous. The number is up to 2 million incarcerated. Now, I am a believer in NA/AA self-help meetings but I also realize that alcohol and other drug abuse is a sin as well as a disease after addiction is achieved. The government is policing sin. Now isn't that the obligation of the faith community. The government has taken on sin and the related disorders when in fact the faith community should and could take care of the attitudes and behaviors. The faith community has certified pastoral addiction counselors, licensed certified social workers and certified alcohol and drug counselors available if they take on the task. You know as well as I do that a licensing is necessary to provide and evaluate quality care being given. The faith based initiative by Pres. Bush and company, I have no idea how that would work or if it would be beneficial to the addiction community. If you are not aware, there is an organization called Alcoholic Victorious that is a twelve step program similar to NA/AA self-help meetings that is Christian oriented and responds to the needs of faith community needs. This is not enough but it is a start. I hope my reponse has been helpful.
John, I have witnessed the prison system become overwhelmed with non-violent offenders with mandatory minimum sentences that are outrageous. The number is up to 2 million incarcerated. Now, I am a believer in NA/AA self-help meetings but I also realize that alcohol and other drug abuse is a sin as well as a disease after addiction is achieved. The government is policing sin. Now isn't that the obligation of the faith community. The government has taken on sin and the related disorders when in fact the faith community should and could take care of the attitudes and behaviors. The faith community has certified pastoral addiction counselors, licensed certified social workers and certified alcohol and drug counselors available if they take on the task. You know as well as I do that a licensing is necessary to provide and evaluate quality care being given. The faith based initiative by Pres. Bush and company, I have no idea how that would work or if it would be beneficial to the addiction community. If you are not aware, there is an organization called Alcoholic Victorious that is a twelve step program similar to NA/AA self-help meetings that is Christian oriented and responds to the needs of faith community needs. This is not enough but it is a start. I hope my reponse has been helpful.
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Mumsmagic:
Enjoyed your comments and agree wholeheartedly. I am familiar with Alcoholics Victorious and believe any faith based service certainly is needed for those that want it. It is essential to many. Addiction certaly has many spiritual consequences.
As for the Bush Administration, I believe their "support" of faith based" programs may send the wrong message to the uninformed. I too am very concerned with addicts and alcoholics recieving quality care. I really think what needs to happen is a whole new approach to the "DRUG WAR." What this country is doing is not working!
Enjoyed your comments and agree wholeheartedly. I am familiar with Alcoholics Victorious and believe any faith based service certainly is needed for those that want it. It is essential to many. Addiction certaly has many spiritual consequences.
As for the Bush Administration, I believe their "support" of faith based" programs may send the wrong message to the uninformed. I too am very concerned with addicts and alcoholics recieving quality care. I really think what needs to happen is a whole new approach to the "DRUG WAR." What this country is doing is not working!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Plainfield, New Jersey USA
Posts: 491
John do you know what Nouthetic Counseling?
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing,one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Nouthetic Counseling is a "directive" way of counseling, as opposed to most secular "non-directive" counseling. It uses the authority of God. Therefore it is neither arbitrary nor oppressive. It does not function merely as a soundboard but is confrontational and discerning. This approach includes the following: discerning sin or wrong doings in the counselee; admonishing; confronting with the Word of God; motivating for change; providing direction from the Scripture; teaching the Word of God; leading the counselee to confession, reconciliation and restoration; supporting and encouraging the counselee in his walk with God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiriation of God. and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
When Biblical counseling is applied in God's authority it will be right to the point and directive, no hiding behind vague words. Nouthetic counseling is active, not passive. It is open and honest, straight forward and nearly to the point of being blunt. It is geared to change, it is radical, and clearly presents a choice to the client; to follow in God's way or the way of sin.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Nouthetic Counseling is motivated by love and deep concern of them that administer it. The practising counselor needs to have the love of God, faith and hope in order to have an effective influence on the counselee.
------------------
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing,one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Nouthetic Counseling is a "directive" way of counseling, as opposed to most secular "non-directive" counseling. It uses the authority of God. Therefore it is neither arbitrary nor oppressive. It does not function merely as a soundboard but is confrontational and discerning. This approach includes the following: discerning sin or wrong doings in the counselee; admonishing; confronting with the Word of God; motivating for change; providing direction from the Scripture; teaching the Word of God; leading the counselee to confession, reconciliation and restoration; supporting and encouraging the counselee in his walk with God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiriation of God. and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
When Biblical counseling is applied in God's authority it will be right to the point and directive, no hiding behind vague words. Nouthetic counseling is active, not passive. It is open and honest, straight forward and nearly to the point of being blunt. It is geared to change, it is radical, and clearly presents a choice to the client; to follow in God's way or the way of sin.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Nouthetic Counseling is motivated by love and deep concern of them that administer it. The practising counselor needs to have the love of God, faith and hope in order to have an effective influence on the counselee.
------------------
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Francisco CA
Posts: 1
greetings
greetings Pernell. I thank you for your comments. sins is sin, there is definitely no way to get around it, go over it, accept to go through it with faith and preserverance.
Originally Posted by Pernell Johnson
John, I have witnessed the prison system become overwhelmed with non-violent offenders with mandatory minimum sentences that are outrageous. The number is up to 2 million incarcerated. Now, I am a believer in NA/AA self-help meetings but I also realize that alcohol and other drug abuse is a sin as well as a disease after addiction is achieved. The government is policing sin. Now isn't that the obligation of the faith community. The government has taken on sin and the related disorders when in fact the faith community should and could take care of the attitudes and behaviors. The faith community has certified pastoral addiction counselors, licensed certified social workers and certified alcohol and drug counselors available if they take on the task. You know as well as I do that a licensing is necessary to provide and evaluate quality care being given. The faith based initiative by Pres. Bush and company, I have no idea how that would work or if it would be beneficial to the addiction community. If you are not aware, there is an organization called Alcoholic Victorious that is a twelve step program similar to NA/AA self-help meetings that is Christian oriented and responds to the needs of faith community needs. This is not enough but it is a start. I hope my reponse has been helpful.
Dancing To My Own Beat
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: I don't know what kind of state I'm in
Posts: 1,326
Originally Posted by John Stiemke
Styloebetoe
Thanks for your comments and AA resources. I am very familiar with both the steps and traditions and use them in my life every day.What I am really interested in is people's opinions regarding providing treatment services in "faith based" programs that are often times unlicenced. Also what is your opinion regarding national funding of these programs and finally does this give a message to the general public that alcoholism is a "moral" problem? What do you think?
Thanks for your comments and AA resources. I am very familiar with both the steps and traditions and use them in my life every day.What I am really interested in is people's opinions regarding providing treatment services in "faith based" programs that are often times unlicenced. Also what is your opinion regarding national funding of these programs and finally does this give a message to the general public that alcoholism is a "moral" problem? What do you think?
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