13th stepping?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 17
13th stepping?
Hi posted this question in another thread (Friends and families of alcoholics) someone suggested I post here instead.
Long story short I currently have custody of my 3 daughters, and while waiting to go to court I'm constantly arguing with AW and her family as I won't allow AW's new BF near my children (numerous red flags described in previous thread).
My solicitors agree that he should be kept away but they want more information on their relationship before court. It seems obvious she met him through AA, and some friends at Al Anon told me to look up "13 stepping".
does anyone have any personal experience with this as I have read articles but I wanted to know what questions to ask specifically to determine if he is any kind of AA predator, e.g what's the difference between "13 stepping" and 2 people meeting at AA and starting a relationship?
All my solicitors need is strong indicators, not concrete evidence that their relationship is inappropriate, which should be enough to get an Emergency Contact Order to prevent him seeing my daughters.
Any advice is appreciated thank you
Long story short I currently have custody of my 3 daughters, and while waiting to go to court I'm constantly arguing with AW and her family as I won't allow AW's new BF near my children (numerous red flags described in previous thread).
My solicitors agree that he should be kept away but they want more information on their relationship before court. It seems obvious she met him through AA, and some friends at Al Anon told me to look up "13 stepping".
does anyone have any personal experience with this as I have read articles but I wanted to know what questions to ask specifically to determine if he is any kind of AA predator, e.g what's the difference between "13 stepping" and 2 people meeting at AA and starting a relationship?
All my solicitors need is strong indicators, not concrete evidence that their relationship is inappropriate, which should be enough to get an Emergency Contact Order to prevent him seeing my daughters.
Any advice is appreciated thank you
Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
Its not any different than someone going to the gym to try to hook up, except that at AA people are in a more vulnerable spot psychologically.
If he’s her boyfriend, then he’s probably not just out for the one night stand, or to take advantage of her for sex, which is as far as “AA predator” goes. An alcoholic isnt any more or less creepy or pedo than someone you meet outside of AA who has issues....like we all do.
That said, any new boyfriend, whether from AA or not, should be trusted before being in the care of your children.
If he’s her boyfriend, then he’s probably not just out for the one night stand, or to take advantage of her for sex, which is as far as “AA predator” goes. An alcoholic isnt any more or less creepy or pedo than someone you meet outside of AA who has issues....like we all do.
That said, any new boyfriend, whether from AA or not, should be trusted before being in the care of your children.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
I strongly second that just because someone is in AA does not make them a predator. In fact, seeking help for a problem is generally considered a good thing. If there are other reasons to ask a judge to keep this person away from the children, definitely protect them. But just because someone is in AA or is dating someone else in AA does not make them a threat. Introducing a new person into a child's life is always difficult, and I don't think there are any hard and fast rules.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,781
Originally Posted by Libby06 
13th stepping is when a member with a decent amount of sobriety hits on a newcomer. How long has your AW been in AA?
13 stepping is not cool and won’t be tolerated in my area.. new people do get involved, in my experience they don’t stick around AA that long.. but some do..
Wishing you the best
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2019
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Libby06 AW started AA in January she met BF at 1st meeting (he offered her lifts to and from meetings). We separated in February (details in my Families and Friends thread) she was homeless by April/May and living with BF by June.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
What the others said. The "predator thing" is to me an unusual occurrence- and truly less likely than, say, the people I met at bars.
When I was less than 90 days sober, I had 2 guys try it on me. I was vulnerable and confused - and I had that classic response about "what are his motives." I got out unscathed but it could have been quite bad (ie getting into a relationship with someone long in the program but NOT emotionally secure).
Alternately, I HAVE seen "AA relationships" work, but not ones that started in earnest in early sobriety- for either person. My husband is sober and now in AA, but we have a very unusual situation-primarily because we dated in high school, went separate ways but he particularly never stopped loving me- and when sober, we built from a starting point of each of our individual recovery work and grew together.
When I was less than 90 days sober, I had 2 guys try it on me. I was vulnerable and confused - and I had that classic response about "what are his motives." I got out unscathed but it could have been quite bad (ie getting into a relationship with someone long in the program but NOT emotionally secure).
Alternately, I HAVE seen "AA relationships" work, but not ones that started in earnest in early sobriety- for either person. My husband is sober and now in AA, but we have a very unusual situation-primarily because we dated in high school, went separate ways but he particularly never stopped loving me- and when sober, we built from a starting point of each of our individual recovery work and grew together.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
In nearly 28 years I've yet to meet a predator in AA. In general it is recommended that people avoid relationships in their first year of recovery but it happens and I don't think that qualifies as inappropriate
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Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,576
Hard to tell if he is a predator or not, but an arse is quite certain. I hate when the long times or old timers come sniffing around our new people. Man or woman.
Our primary purpose is to carry the message to the alcoholic that still suffers. Coming on to new people is not helpful...its just creepy. Newcomers are coming to AA to possibly save their life. This behavior can seriously derail someones journey.
It really makes me sick that someone claiming to "work the program "would do that, but it happens.
We do not tolerate it in our homegroup. We just ran a guy off for the same thing. He hit on 4 new girls, and the girl I sponsored was freaked out by his private facebook messages. This was after he kept coming on to me and was told to knock it off.
I hope your stbx aw finds sobriety, and this guy is just hard up for a relationship and not a threat. All people in AA are not well, and are not just only for sobriety. Most newcomers have nothing to offer in a relationship until they get their head screwed on straight.
Sorry for the rant...im pretty passionate about not tolerating it...and letting them know.
As far as an emergency order..I have no idea. Can you go to your county court records online? Ours is called judici (sp?)and look and see if this guy has any priors? Thats where I would start if they were my girls. Its all public record.
Our primary purpose is to carry the message to the alcoholic that still suffers. Coming on to new people is not helpful...its just creepy. Newcomers are coming to AA to possibly save their life. This behavior can seriously derail someones journey.
It really makes me sick that someone claiming to "work the program "would do that, but it happens.
We do not tolerate it in our homegroup. We just ran a guy off for the same thing. He hit on 4 new girls, and the girl I sponsored was freaked out by his private facebook messages. This was after he kept coming on to me and was told to knock it off.
I hope your stbx aw finds sobriety, and this guy is just hard up for a relationship and not a threat. All people in AA are not well, and are not just only for sobriety. Most newcomers have nothing to offer in a relationship until they get their head screwed on straight.
Sorry for the rant...im pretty passionate about not tolerating it...and letting them know.
As far as an emergency order..I have no idea. Can you go to your county court records online? Ours is called judici (sp?)and look and see if this guy has any priors? Thats where I would start if they were my girls. Its all public record.
Last edited by Libby06; 09-12-2019 at 06:06 PM. Reason: Add detail
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Originally Posted by Libby06
Hard to tell if he is a predator or not, but an arse is quite certain. I hate when the long times or old timers come sniffing around our new people. Man or woman.
Our primary purpose is to carry the message to the alcoholic that still suffers. Coming on to new people is not helpful...its just creepy. Newcomers are coming to AA to possibly save their life. This behavior can seriously derail someones journey.
It really makes me sick that someone claiming to "work the program "would do that, but it happens.
We do not tolerate it in our homegroup. We just ran a guy off for the same thing. He hit on 4 new girls, and the girl I sponsored was freaked out by his private facebook messages. This was after he kept coming on to me and was told to knock it off.
I hope your stbx aw finds sobriety, and this guy is just hard up for a relationship and not a threat. All people in AA are not well, and are not just only for sobriety. Most newcomers have nothing to offer in a relationship until they get their head screwed on straight.
Sorry for the rant...im pretty passionate about not tolerating it...and letting them know.
Our primary purpose is to carry the message to the alcoholic that still suffers. Coming on to new people is not helpful...its just creepy. Newcomers are coming to AA to possibly save their life. This behavior can seriously derail someones journey.
It really makes me sick that someone claiming to "work the program "would do that, but it happens.
We do not tolerate it in our homegroup. We just ran a guy off for the same thing. He hit on 4 new girls, and the girl I sponsored was freaked out by his private facebook messages. This was after he kept coming on to me and was told to knock it off.
I hope your stbx aw finds sobriety, and this guy is just hard up for a relationship and not a threat. All people in AA are not well, and are not just only for sobriety. Most newcomers have nothing to offer in a relationship until they get their head screwed on straight.
Sorry for the rant...im pretty passionate about not tolerating it...and letting them know.
I’m not saying anyone should hit on a newcomer, I’m just staying that a newly sober person having “nothing to offer in a relationship and is not well” is quite the blanket statement.
Relationships will happen. They’ll happen anywhere. I think the general rule of frowning on it in AA makes sense just like it does in the workplace, but not every alcoholic person is the same.
To the original poster: it sounds like your wife betrayed you deeply, and I can see how it would be easy to pin it on predators at AA. Truthfully though, she could have betrayed you anywhere, it just happened to happen there. I’m truly sorry for what you have been through. It’s hard to recover from a betrayal like that, and honestly I’d be worried about my kids as well, just not necessarily because of AA. There is concern with new boyfriends around children anytime, anywhere; alcoholic or not, be on guard there.
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Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,576
Of course I am not saying people should leave there spouse when coming into to AA, that is ridiculous, and taken completely out if context.
I should have reiterated...Alcoholics of my type would not have been ready for a new relationship after my FIRST meeting. What I needed was a sponsor and to work the steps. That is why I was there. I was already in a long term relationship when I came in to begin with.
The topic was titled 13th stepping...not dating in AA.
I should have reiterated...Alcoholics of my type would not have been ready for a new relationship after my FIRST meeting. What I needed was a sponsor and to work the steps. That is why I was there. I was already in a long term relationship when I came in to begin with.
The topic was titled 13th stepping...not dating in AA.
Last edited by Libby06; 09-12-2019 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Spelling
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
To get a moderately clear thinking mind, apart from staying sober, meditating etc I followed this aa guide to get clear on the 13stepping.,
concentrate on staying sober,
If I can keep a plant alive for a year, then after that:
If I can keep a pet alive for a year, then after that:
Consider a relationship
For people like me, who tends to be neglectful, that probably saved a lot of heartache.
concentrate on staying sober,
If I can keep a plant alive for a year, then after that:
If I can keep a pet alive for a year, then after that:
Consider a relationship
For people like me, who tends to be neglectful, that probably saved a lot of heartache.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
basically 13th stepping is when a more experienced member of a 12-Step group looks for a romantic relationship with a new group member.
2 people meetin in aa and starting a relationship-people IN AA dont mess with married men/women. relationships can materialize in aa but people IN aa dont **** around with married people- inside and outside of the fellowship
2 people meetin in aa and starting a relationship-people IN AA dont mess with married men/women. relationships can materialize in aa but people IN aa dont **** around with married people- inside and outside of the fellowship
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
Just another note- 13th stepping can also happen when a less experienced member (in time) takes advantage of a longer term member. We have to remember that membership doesn't mean working a strong program.
And as to the "no changes (or relationships) in the first year." I spent discussion with my sponsor and quite significant consideration when I began to date my now husband when I was 4 1/2 mo sober and he had a month. We have a unique story in some ways as we dated in high school, on and off, and always remained fond of each other tho out lives completely diverged. I wasn't going to pass up what I intuited was indeed the love of my life because of my early sobriety.
We absolutely built our individual sobriety first and went from there.
And as to the "no changes (or relationships) in the first year." I spent discussion with my sponsor and quite significant consideration when I began to date my now husband when I was 4 1/2 mo sober and he had a month. We have a unique story in some ways as we dated in high school, on and off, and always remained fond of each other tho out lives completely diverged. I wasn't going to pass up what I intuited was indeed the love of my life because of my early sobriety.
We absolutely built our individual sobriety first and went from there.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
I know several men that are single and who outside of long-term sobriety don't have much else on the ball. It appears they don't know how to relate to women outside of AA.
Often when single women are in attendance they bring up the fact they are not in a relationship.
Now there are single women in AA who enjoy dating men they meet in the program.
And sometimes it works and sometime it doesn't.
Often when single women are in attendance they bring up the fact they are not in a relationship.
Now there are single women in AA who enjoy dating men they meet in the program.
And sometimes it works and sometime it doesn't.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Malcolm, you are right to be concerned. I have been an AA member for many years and I am always very careful about who I bring home. There are a lot of unwell people in AA and there are some I certainly would not want my family exposed to.
13th stepping in reality is a sick relationship. I was 13th stepped by a woman whom I thought was well out of my league. I couldn't believe my luck. I was an absolutely willing victim because I wrongly believed that a relationship would be my ticket to a better life - I did not even know what a better life looked like.
This lady at the time had 18 months sobriety which impressed the hell out of me. I thought 18 days was a phenomenal achievement. But she was just as sick or sicker than me, just in a different way. Our relationship was short lived, and she quickly moved on to another newcomer.
One way you may check things out a bit is to see if you can get a feel for the true motivations behind the relationship. There are four questions I ask myself which help me with situations like this.
Perhaps you might precede with does this relationship look like:
it's loving?
It's unselfish?
It's honest?
It's pure?
If your gut tells you it meets these four criteria, then it's ok, if it doesn't it is time to take action for the sake of your children. It is probably easy to spot examples of selfishness, dishonesty and so forth to use as a basis for your conclusions.
13th stepping in reality is a sick relationship. I was 13th stepped by a woman whom I thought was well out of my league. I couldn't believe my luck. I was an absolutely willing victim because I wrongly believed that a relationship would be my ticket to a better life - I did not even know what a better life looked like.
This lady at the time had 18 months sobriety which impressed the hell out of me. I thought 18 days was a phenomenal achievement. But she was just as sick or sicker than me, just in a different way. Our relationship was short lived, and she quickly moved on to another newcomer.
One way you may check things out a bit is to see if you can get a feel for the true motivations behind the relationship. There are four questions I ask myself which help me with situations like this.
Perhaps you might precede with does this relationship look like:
it's loving?
It's unselfish?
It's honest?
It's pure?
If your gut tells you it meets these four criteria, then it's ok, if it doesn't it is time to take action for the sake of your children. It is probably easy to spot examples of selfishness, dishonesty and so forth to use as a basis for your conclusions.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 17
Stayingsassy yes and no on my wife's betrayal. She didn't get with this guy straight away, I think he met her at her 1st meeting, I don't think she did anything while we were together, though I'll.never be 100% sure on anything. If he's not the man I think he is, he definitely met her through him (I never got any names so it's complicated to talk about). I think someone from this sordid group (don't mean AA, I'm talking about the group of men she's now associated with) got their hooks into her after we split, when her family threw her out and she found herself homeless. My primary concern is not my wife at this point. Yes she's ill and vulnerable, but she's also a grown woman who, when all is said and done, cheated on her husband and abandoned her children. My priority here is protecting my daughters. If she was with a good man, who I felt loved her and was responsible enough to protect my daughters and call me in the event of a relapse I would never restrict her relationship with them to this degree. I hate doing it. This man is at the least thoroughly arrogant and irresponsible, if not actively dangerous.
Gottalife the answer to all your questions is 'no'.
It's not loving, the nicest thing this guy could say to justify his sleeping with my wife was "she seems like a nice girl".
it's not unselfish, she's started and carried on a relationship with him despite the fact it directly impacts how much she sees her daughters. He gets a beautiful younger woman, she gets a cheap roof over her head.
it's not pure. He's introduced her to cannabis, she's still an active addict, and we have proof that he's lied in order to get access to our children.
The whole situation's a nightmare
Gottalife the answer to all your questions is 'no'.
It's not loving, the nicest thing this guy could say to justify his sleeping with my wife was "she seems like a nice girl".
it's not unselfish, she's started and carried on a relationship with him despite the fact it directly impacts how much she sees her daughters. He gets a beautiful younger woman, she gets a cheap roof over her head.
it's not pure. He's introduced her to cannabis, she's still an active addict, and we have proof that he's lied in order to get access to our children.
The whole situation's a nightmare
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
I feel for you Malcolm. I wish I could offer some solution but all I can say is trust your instincts. I believe that if you checked your own motives against those questions, they would all be a "yes" and that is as good a guide as you can get that you are on the right track.
All the best,
All the best,
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