Slip vs. Relapse
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Originally Posted by fini 
“but I also see frustration with the dogma of AA causing relapse, too. ”
whoa, frustration does not cause relapse. i kindadoubt you meant it the way it sounds, and am calling this out because it is so important to keep clarity on things such as “cause”.
whoa, frustration does not cause relapse. i kindadoubt you meant it the way it sounds, and am calling this out because it is so important to keep clarity on things such as “cause”.
Only the alcoholic causes their own relapse. Period.
Victimhood keeps us drunk. Correction: victimhood would keep me drunk.
Blame...same thing as above. Rebellion...another ditto.
We all get frustrated with others approach sometimes - I know I've felt like Sassy expressed well about WTF I am doing returning yet again to a thread that aggravates the stew out of me. I try not to bc not constructive for...anyone, especially me.
This thread reminds me that I need to do better giving others the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to find their own program - I hope. I need to be as redundantly clear in sharing my ESH as I was about my mom's alcoholism and all that crap.
I cannot be disingenuous and use words like slip. A slip is an accident and taking a drink is a choice. Everyone here knows I am an AA person. Personally, I think everyone in this world can take something from it- if only, try not to be a jerk and apologize promptly when you are (essentially, get out of yourself and be decent as you go, so 10/11)...I also believe that concepts like the AV are useful in describing the alcoholic mind. I believe that Franciscan theory in the school of Fr Richard Rohr well fits the growing concept of love and acceptance I have gained in my spiritual journey. Throw Jungian theory in there, too. And so on.
IMO, and IME, that is.
A, peace out.
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Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,171
Originally Posted by Evoo View Post
Hardly a fraud. Don't allow yourself to be broiled in anxiety over semantics. The last two years were a success, and you should be proud of them.
This doesn't erase all of that hard work.
Most concerning here is that this slip mattered to you, and that you've been so reluctant to be honest about it with the trust system you have relied upon. You've relied upon them to hold you accountable. It certainly can't be worth the guilt, the anxiety, the shame you are feeling about it. And if the 2-year token feels empty to you because of it, then who is it for?
Remember that this is your sobriety. Be careful you don't let this become something that lets your addiction voice push you into an "F-it, I failed" mentality. Because you didn't .
Congrats on your two years and -- onward!
Hardly a fraud. Don't allow yourself to be broiled in anxiety over semantics. The last two years were a success, and you should be proud of them.
This doesn't erase all of that hard work.
Most concerning here is that this slip mattered to you, and that you've been so reluctant to be honest about it with the trust system you have relied upon. You've relied upon them to hold you accountable. It certainly can't be worth the guilt, the anxiety, the shame you are feeling about it. And if the 2-year token feels empty to you because of it, then who is it for?
Remember that this is your sobriety. Be careful you don't let this become something that lets your addiction voice push you into an "F-it, I failed" mentality. Because you didn't .
Congrats on your two years and -- onward!
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
There it is.
Ultimately we have to decide for ourselves if we have "slipped" or not.
With regards to the OP did she slip? Ask ten people in AA and 3 will say yes, 3 no, 3 it's her call and one no opinion.
Ultimately we have to decide for ourselves if we have "slipped" or not.
With regards to the OP did she slip? Ask ten people in AA and 3 will say yes, 3 no, 3 it's her call and one no opinion.
Both slip and relapse are defined here at an individual levels more precisely and with more nuance than Webster would offer in a dictionary.
The matter is further complicated by the fact that the slip/relapse involves a substance which is not chemically equal to alcohol. The equivalence is based more on philosophical similarities. And the context in which they were used is a special case in the OP.
If the slip/relapse involved alcohol, it would signal to me that the slipee never really quit, and while I'm making a semantic issue out of what "quit" means, I'd feel a bit more on solid ground if the issue involved only alcohol.
Each of us defines things differently as EVO points out about semantics, and each of us sets his own goals and standards in recovery. The answer is best left to the person struggling with the issue. The main thing is that the reasons for the behavior/action must be considered honestly.
This doesn't mean that the reasons will be unanimously unassailable.
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Join Date: May 2012
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Originally Posted by BullDog777
whoa, ANYTHING can cause relapse if we give it the power to....just sayin'.
and i think it's dangerous to use it that way.....yes, we DO see lots of posts here that ascribe a "because" to various relapses. and usually someone will pipe up and point out that it is an "excuse" and not a "reason".
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Originally Posted by Stayingsassy
Ugh, this thread!
I wouldn’t still engage but it’s really irritating me that this guy who has solid sobriety is being asked to reset his sobriety date when we have people slipping, relapsing, crashing and burning all over SR with DUI’s, failed relationships, lost jobs, lost hope, failing livers, you name it and we can’t get these people to string together a week; but this guy, he better reset his date. This is ridiculous and it severely undercuts the work this man has put in to be sober.
Please let me not post here any more...why oh why do I keep returning...I’m going to find a good movie on Netflix and peace out!
I wouldn’t still engage but it’s really irritating me that this guy who has solid sobriety is being asked to reset his sobriety date when we have people slipping, relapsing, crashing and burning all over SR with DUI’s, failed relationships, lost jobs, lost hope, failing livers, you name it and we can’t get these people to string together a week; but this guy, he better reset his date. This is ridiculous and it severely undercuts the work this man has put in to be sober.
Please let me not post here any more...why oh why do I keep returning...I’m going to find a good movie on Netflix and peace out!
and he wanted input because he had naggings in his mind about this.
which is what i see a forum as being for, too.
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Join Date: May 2010
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Originally Posted by fini
i see the word "cause" as being entirely mis-used in these kinds of contexts.
and i think it's dangerous to use it that way.....yes, we DO see lots of posts here that ascribe a "because" to various relapses. and usually someone will pipe up and point out that it is an "excuse" and not a "reason".
and i think it's dangerous to use it that way.....yes, we DO see lots of posts here that ascribe a "because" to various relapses. and usually someone will pipe up and point out that it is an "excuse" and not a "reason".
I drank for any and all reasons. It doesn't matter what words I used to describe any particular bender. If I decided to drink, none of the rest matters anyway.
I dunno...keep it simple?
I tellin you guys...this is a slippery slope. Your brain wants to analyze and label everything...keep it simple.
Win the day.
Do it again tomorrow.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
"What difference does it make what word they used to describe why they relapsed?"
a huge one.
if i relapse and say i relapsed because of frustration, or because of stress, or because of a crappy day at work.....then i think/will think/tell others that these things are causes of return to drinking, and that by extension these things are to be avoided in order to stay sober.
life is to be avoided. since it's full of those things that cause relapse.
if i understand that none of those things cause relapse, that there is no external cause, no matter what, then i have the responsibility and fantastic opportunity to live my sober life without things coming at me that cause relapse.
you bet my brain wants to analyze. which is serving me well. plus, that is one of the things it is "for".
a huge one.
if i relapse and say i relapsed because of frustration, or because of stress, or because of a crappy day at work.....then i think/will think/tell others that these things are causes of return to drinking, and that by extension these things are to be avoided in order to stay sober.
life is to be avoided. since it's full of those things that cause relapse.
if i understand that none of those things cause relapse, that there is no external cause, no matter what, then i have the responsibility and fantastic opportunity to live my sober life without things coming at me that cause relapse.
you bet my brain wants to analyze. which is serving me well. plus, that is one of the things it is "for".
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Coast
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Originally Posted by fini
"What difference does it make what word they used to describe why they relapsed?"
a huge one.
if i relapse and say i relapsed because of frustration, or because of stress, or because of a crappy day at work.....then i think/will think/tell others that these things are causes of return to drinking, and that by extension these things are to be avoided in order to stay sober.
life is to be avoided. since it's full of those things that cause relapse.
if i understand that none of those things cause relapse, that there is no external cause, no matter what, then i have the responsibility and fantastic opportunity to live my sober life without things coming at me that cause relapse.
you bet my brain wants to analyze. which is serving me well. plus, that is one of the things it is "for".
a huge one.
if i relapse and say i relapsed because of frustration, or because of stress, or because of a crappy day at work.....then i think/will think/tell others that these things are causes of return to drinking, and that by extension these things are to be avoided in order to stay sober.
life is to be avoided. since it's full of those things that cause relapse.
if i understand that none of those things cause relapse, that there is no external cause, no matter what, then i have the responsibility and fantastic opportunity to live my sober life without things coming at me that cause relapse.
you bet my brain wants to analyze. which is serving me well. plus, that is one of the things it is "for".
Agree to disagree. I'd hate to complicate it that much.
"don't drink under any and all circumstances"
you'll never convince me it ever needs to me more than that. If you can tow that line you'll be sober and you won't live in your head.
All else is semantics.
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 700
Best advice my sponsor gave me, Sobriety has to be first priority in my life, #1.. everything else will follow.
For me, Relapse starts when Sobriety isn't #1 in my life. Don't have to using to be in relapse.
If your gut is telling you to restart your sobriety date then do it.
I know a lady that restarted hers after 20 years because of prescribed medication after a surgery. She followed her gut.
For me, Relapse starts when Sobriety isn't #1 in my life. Don't have to using to be in relapse.
If your gut is telling you to restart your sobriety date then do it.
I know a lady that restarted hers after 20 years because of prescribed medication after a surgery. She followed her gut.
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by ScottFromWI
Folks - lets stick to helping the OP, not arguing about our own semantics regarding the subject.
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Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 919
I see the discord here and it saddens me a little.
We all want the same thing, to be our own masters and not be a slave to a substance.
Its tough because we all hold onto many things very strongly to help us in our journey, and others don't always see things the same.
I think that's why it is good we have one foundation here: don't drink. "Sober" recovery. And as long as we respect that, respect each other, we should all be good.
We all want the same thing, to be our own masters and not be a slave to a substance.
Its tough because we all hold onto many things very strongly to help us in our journey, and others don't always see things the same.
I think that's why it is good we have one foundation here: don't drink. "Sober" recovery. And as long as we respect that, respect each other, we should all be good.
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Join Date: Nov 2018
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI
Folks - lets stick to helping the OP, not arguing about our own semantics regarding the subject.
Stayingsassy
Ironically, OP arrived at his own conclusion quickly, decided what he’d like to do about it and moved on...way up in page one, while the rest of the circus raged on!
Ironically, OP arrived at his own conclusion quickly, decided what he’d like to do about it and moved on...way up in page one, while the rest of the circus raged on!
It's also possible that I totally misread intentions, but I don't think so.
No Dogma Please
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,562
Originally Posted by fini
"What difference does it make what word they used to describe why they relapsed?"
a huge one.
if i relapse and say i relapsed because of frustration, or because of stress, or because of a crappy day at work.....then i think/will think/tell others that these things are causes of return to drinking, and that by extension these things are to be avoided in order to stay sober.
life is to be avoided. since it's full of those things that cause relapse.
if i understand that none of those things cause relapse, that there is no external cause, no matter what, then i have the responsibility and fantastic opportunity to live my sober life without things coming at me that cause relapse.
you bet my brain wants to analyze. which is serving me well. plus, that is one of the things it is "for".
a huge one.
if i relapse and say i relapsed because of frustration, or because of stress, or because of a crappy day at work.....then i think/will think/tell others that these things are causes of return to drinking, and that by extension these things are to be avoided in order to stay sober.
life is to be avoided. since it's full of those things that cause relapse.
if i understand that none of those things cause relapse, that there is no external cause, no matter what, then i have the responsibility and fantastic opportunity to live my sober life without things coming at me that cause relapse.
you bet my brain wants to analyze. which is serving me well. plus, that is one of the things it is "for".
Originally Posted by BullDog777
Agree to disagree. I'd hate to complicate it that much.
"don't drink under any and all circumstances"
you'll never convince me it ever needs to me more than that. If you can tow that line you'll be sober and you won't live in your head.
All else is semantics.
"don't drink under any and all circumstances"
you'll never convince me it ever needs to me more than that. If you can tow that line you'll be sober and you won't live in your head.
All else is semantics.
Don't drink/use addictive substances, at all, is how I run my sobriety. The only way I can assure myself that I won't end up back in rehab is to never take ANY amount of these substances EVER.
BUT
We all know relapse happens. I think that the who/what/when/where/why what were you thinking feeling doing would be extremely important data to have to assure that the NEXT relapse/slip/whatever never happens.
There's my thoughts in a nutshell. I found the discourse a mite heated, but in the end interesting and worth it. It's obviously a subject we all feel passionate about. And why I can feel positive about both AVRT and 12 Step. They both have value.
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it's for sure interesting how differently we can all read posts and exchanges.
i saw no discord and nothing heated, nor was i trying to convince anyone of anything. and i answered the question about difference exactly because i did not see it as semantics at all, but as something crucially important in the distinction.
go figure!
i saw no discord and nothing heated, nor was i trying to convince anyone of anything. and i answered the question about difference exactly because i did not see it as semantics at all, but as something crucially important in the distinction.
go figure!
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
I think it comes down to whether or not OP relapsed last summer or not.
Obviously, OP is getting some really different ideas about that.
I just found it amusing that there was an intense debate happening after OP decided to go ahead and just discuss it with friends and sponsor.
OP, I’m curious what the consensus was among your peers? Were you asked to reset your date?
Obviously, OP is getting some really different ideas about that.
I just found it amusing that there was an intense debate happening after OP decided to go ahead and just discuss it with friends and sponsor.
OP, I’m curious what the consensus was among your peers? Were you asked to reset your date?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6
Hey y'all! Thanks for checking in. I actually was not asked to reset my date. They felt that b/c I took it once for anxiety and did not abuse it that it does not warrant a restart. I find it to be a slippery slope and it still doesn't sit well with me so I am going to talk with my brother (who is in recovery) about it this week. I think I am just going to reset it. I was sober for 9 years from 26-35 and was prescribed klonopin for 2 of those years. not once did I take more than I was prescribed and some days, I didn't take any. That being said, I didn't have a problem with benzos back then so it was a bit different. I guess I just look back on that stretch of time where I was completely clean and sober with no lapses and feel that it was more genuine.
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Originally Posted by etd
Hey y'all! Thanks for checking in. I actually was not asked to reset my date. They felt that b/c I took it once for anxiety and did not abuse it that it does not warrant a restart. I find it to be a slippery slope and it still doesn't sit well with me so I am going to talk with my brother (who is in recovery) about it this week. I think I am just going to reset it. I was sober for 9 years from 26-35 and was prescribed klonopin for 2 of those years. not once did I take more than I was prescribed and some days, I didn't take any. That being said, I didn't have a problem with benzos back then so it was a bit different. I guess I just look back on that stretch of time where I was completely clean and sober with no lapses and feel that it was more genuine.
Still, if you are asking the question here, and you also want to ask more people: maybe do what sits right in your heart. It’s you that needs to feel at peace with you.
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
...could it be that you are not telling the whole story? I sometimes don't. I tend to project an image of myself that is seldom the whole story.
"...just used it to help with anxiety. I do have a history of benzo addiction, as well. In addition, I took more gabapentin and ambien than prescribed to help with insomnia and anxiety. The latter I discussed with my sponsor..." - and the former?
Is there guilt for craving the benzo high and does being sober mean you should be over that? Somehow 'graduating' means it's all down-hill from here? Perhaps look at why there is guilt rather than trying to fix it.
-2c
"...just used it to help with anxiety. I do have a history of benzo addiction, as well. In addition, I took more gabapentin and ambien than prescribed to help with insomnia and anxiety. The latter I discussed with my sponsor..." - and the former?
Is there guilt for craving the benzo high and does being sober mean you should be over that? Somehow 'graduating' means it's all down-hill from here? Perhaps look at why there is guilt rather than trying to fix it.
-2c
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Originally Posted by fini
it's for sure interesting how differently we can all read posts and exchanges.
i saw no discord and nothing heated, nor was i trying to convince anyone of anything. and i answered the question about difference exactly because i did not see it as semantics at all, but as something crucially important in the distinction.
go figure!
i saw no discord and nothing heated, nor was i trying to convince anyone of anything. and i answered the question about difference exactly because i did not see it as semantics at all, but as something crucially important in the distinction.
go figure!
Look...In my eyes, there's no 1 "right way" to do this. There's tons of different ways people can stay sober, and thank God for that.
If it was all up to one idea or place ...well, I would imagine there would be quite a lot of turnover.
So...to me..."do what works for you" is the best way. However that may be. In the end, it doesn't really matter as long as each person's sobriety remains intact.
Just do whatever blows your hair back. As long as your happy and healthy, God bless you. Simple as that.
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