Beyond denial?
All is Change
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
Beyond denial?
I have a tendency to intellectualize. In a way it is the ultimate way to 'deny'.
One reason I was enamoured with mind-altering substances was because they seemed to offer a path to a 'higher' consciousness, to the 'great mysteries'. I was somewhat surprised to find that abstaining from drugs, alcohol AND intellectualizing while practicing mindfulness (which, paradoxically, leads to a state of no-mind, and hence beyond anything of the mind, like intellectualizing) takes me to those 'places' that drugs and alcohol could only ever momentarily hint at.
Anyway, I like these topics while I recognize the limitations in using the mind to solve issues that ultimately depend on such things as faith and letting go.
Abstinence (morality), A focused mind , Awareness of the truth (applied wisdom) started with abstaining from alcohol. Alcohol removes inhibitions and leads to immorality. Such things as taking things that belong to others. The habit of lying, wanting things to be different from what they truly are. Wanting things that are not happening to happen. Wanting things that are happening to not happen. Generating the hate required to take the life of another being. Acting on passion in a way that harms another being. Sexual misconduct.
These are the basic codes of conduct that helps to change the habit of reacting with craving.
No Magic. Pure reason.
The anchor to Truth must be something universal. Available to all at all times. This is what the breath is.
The breath is a bridge between the conscious part of the mind and the unconscious. We breath whether or not we are aware of it. We can excert active control over the breath and we can let go of that control and the subconscious takes control.
When we are angry or full of passion the breath becomes hard and hot. When afraid the breath is fast . Awareness of the uncontrolled breath is an awareness of the forces that boil in the subconscious. The conscious mind can be aware of the unconscious mind. Awareness of the3 breath is awareness of Truth.
There are far deeper truths. Morality and breath awareness are important in order to be aware of them. Practice living a moral life and practice being aware of the truth and the Truth will reveal itself. Live in the present moment and be happy.
One reason I was enamoured with mind-altering substances was because they seemed to offer a path to a 'higher' consciousness, to the 'great mysteries'. I was somewhat surprised to find that abstaining from drugs, alcohol AND intellectualizing while practicing mindfulness (which, paradoxically, leads to a state of no-mind, and hence beyond anything of the mind, like intellectualizing) takes me to those 'places' that drugs and alcohol could only ever momentarily hint at.
Anyway, I like these topics while I recognize the limitations in using the mind to solve issues that ultimately depend on such things as faith and letting go.
Abstinence (morality), A focused mind , Awareness of the truth (applied wisdom) started with abstaining from alcohol. Alcohol removes inhibitions and leads to immorality. Such things as taking things that belong to others. The habit of lying, wanting things to be different from what they truly are. Wanting things that are not happening to happen. Wanting things that are happening to not happen. Generating the hate required to take the life of another being. Acting on passion in a way that harms another being. Sexual misconduct.
These are the basic codes of conduct that helps to change the habit of reacting with craving.
No Magic. Pure reason.
The anchor to Truth must be something universal. Available to all at all times. This is what the breath is.
The breath is a bridge between the conscious part of the mind and the unconscious. We breath whether or not we are aware of it. We can excert active control over the breath and we can let go of that control and the subconscious takes control.
When we are angry or full of passion the breath becomes hard and hot. When afraid the breath is fast . Awareness of the uncontrolled breath is an awareness of the forces that boil in the subconscious. The conscious mind can be aware of the unconscious mind. Awareness of the3 breath is awareness of Truth.
There are far deeper truths. Morality and breath awareness are important in order to be aware of them. Practice living a moral life and practice being aware of the truth and the Truth will reveal itself. Live in the present moment and be happy.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Some pretty deep thoughts there Grymt, thanks for sharing. I too feel that honest and truth are pillars of not just sobriety but living am good life. I have done some experimentation with mindfulness to attempt to help not only with my sobriety but also my anxiety. It's quite a powerful concept and I agree that there's some much deeper awareness that one could never come close to achieving while in a drug altered state
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,044
Thanks Grympt. The way I see it, even the drunkenest most degraded part of myself is the whole of existence, but from the perspective of the dirt clod, where I'm blind. On drugs or drinking, I could never feel joy or see beauty, as I have the tiniest inkling of feeling & seeing some of these days. My everything was nothing, where now nothing can be everything. Why not?
NYCDl, this helps me stay quit.
NYCDl, this helps me stay quit.
All is Change
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
I have found that intellectualizing helped me early in recovery It still does. There was, is much I don't understand and I've tended to recoil from intangibles like faith, and love. As I've learned more about the value of such things I find that there comes a time when the intellectualizing becomes a hindrance. Still, I value the trying to understand. Not doing so and relying too much on the intellect and its products and I risk dry drunk. I suspect that not trying to understand can lead me to blind faith and its pitfalls. Look for a middle path.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Middle, odd word , ‘sounds ‘ funny in my mind’s ear .
I think though that there may be something there.
‘We’ are kind of ‘a’ middle, no? ‘We’ are that spot , that discrete learned awareness of the integration of all our ‘sides’ ie intellect/emotion, conscious/subconscious, the human being-ness of our experience in the present moment.
We are not really ever fully consistently one ‘side’ or another entirely in one present moment , tending to one side but not devoid of others.
I think though that there may be something there.
‘We’ are kind of ‘a’ middle, no? ‘We’ are that spot , that discrete learned awareness of the integration of all our ‘sides’ ie intellect/emotion, conscious/subconscious, the human being-ness of our experience in the present moment.
We are not really ever fully consistently one ‘side’ or another entirely in one present moment , tending to one side but not devoid of others.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,044
I think you're right -- there's always and "I" watching me "be". What would absence of distinction between intellect and being feel like? Something we can't find out by chasing or meditating either, prolly.
All is Change
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
"My everything was nothing, where now nothing can be everything" - indeed.
The middle path is the space between excessive reactions. Neither suppression nor expression. Neither denial nor acting out. Mere awareness, an equanimous observation of reality as it is, constantly changing, in a flux, rising and passing away, from moment to moment. An awareness of the present moment, from moment to moment.
By trying to Be in the Present ( Be here Now ) moment one finds that the habit is to not do so. Rather one dwells in memories of the past, constantly reacting to things that are not happening but mistaking the happenings for the present moment truths OR one dwells in the future, imaging things that are not happening and may never happen and mistaking those for tangible realities. We seldom dwell fully in the truth of the present moment. Why is this so?
The mind constructs reality using language at war with sensations. This is a barrier to pass through in order to fully be aware of the constantly unpredictably changing truth of the present moment, which is all that ever truly exists. This presents the problem of using words to express esoterica. Ultimately it is an experiantial, constantly changing, truth. Meditation that practices an equanimous awareness of truth, such as awareness of the breath and where that leads to deeper awareness of the reality as it is moment to moment as expressed by the sensations rising and passing away on the mind body phenomenon commonly referred to as I, me, mine ("I" watching me "be") but distinguished from such by an awareness of the fallacy of ego facilitates the knowing of these deeper truths.
The middle path is the space between excessive reactions. Neither suppression nor expression. Neither denial nor acting out. Mere awareness, an equanimous observation of reality as it is, constantly changing, in a flux, rising and passing away, from moment to moment. An awareness of the present moment, from moment to moment.
By trying to Be in the Present ( Be here Now ) moment one finds that the habit is to not do so. Rather one dwells in memories of the past, constantly reacting to things that are not happening but mistaking the happenings for the present moment truths OR one dwells in the future, imaging things that are not happening and may never happen and mistaking those for tangible realities. We seldom dwell fully in the truth of the present moment. Why is this so?
The mind constructs reality using language at war with sensations. This is a barrier to pass through in order to fully be aware of the constantly unpredictably changing truth of the present moment, which is all that ever truly exists. This presents the problem of using words to express esoterica. Ultimately it is an experiantial, constantly changing, truth. Meditation that practices an equanimous awareness of truth, such as awareness of the breath and where that leads to deeper awareness of the reality as it is moment to moment as expressed by the sensations rising and passing away on the mind body phenomenon commonly referred to as I, me, mine ("I" watching me "be") but distinguished from such by an awareness of the fallacy of ego facilitates the knowing of these deeper truths.
All is Change
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
Basically:
In the two mind spaces (past and future) one spends most of the conscious time in there are two types of experiences: Pleasant and un-pleasant. To these two one reacts in one of two ways: Craving or Aversion. These reactions are themselves pleasant or unpleasant and thus self perpetuating.
As these habits are within ones own mind body phenomena no-one or no-thing other or outer can be blamed. The habit, however, is to blame the outer or other for the results of ones own choice to react and for the consequent mind-body sensations.
It becomes clearer that to break this habitual cycle of misinterpreting truth or reality as it is from moment to moment and instead to live in the present as it is, pleasant or unpleasant, one must: not do things that are harmful, do wholesome things and accept reality as it is.
Abstain from unwholesome actions.
Mindfulness raises the awareness of reality.
Equanimous, even minded, non reactive, observation of reality changes the habit of reaction and allows past miseries to rise up to pass away leading to a happy life. Be happy. May all be happy and peaceful.
In the two mind spaces (past and future) one spends most of the conscious time in there are two types of experiences: Pleasant and un-pleasant. To these two one reacts in one of two ways: Craving or Aversion. These reactions are themselves pleasant or unpleasant and thus self perpetuating.
As these habits are within ones own mind body phenomena no-one or no-thing other or outer can be blamed. The habit, however, is to blame the outer or other for the results of ones own choice to react and for the consequent mind-body sensations.
It becomes clearer that to break this habitual cycle of misinterpreting truth or reality as it is from moment to moment and instead to live in the present as it is, pleasant or unpleasant, one must: not do things that are harmful, do wholesome things and accept reality as it is.
Abstain from unwholesome actions.
Mindfulness raises the awareness of reality.
Equanimous, even minded, non reactive, observation of reality changes the habit of reaction and allows past miseries to rise up to pass away leading to a happy life. Be happy. May all be happy and peaceful.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
Dudes, y'all are way over my head and I did some pretty "deep thinking" during my drinking and my inclination was still to figure out the why's and wherefores of it once I quit. Like Dee said, "error."
Very freeing to relegate my deep thoughts to things like spiritual and academic consideration from Friar Richard Rohr. Or Shakespeare. Or Brene Brown.
My Dad is one of the wisest self-described 'simpletons' I have ever known. I have learned a lot from understanding that my impulse to "drill down," as he calls it, can do me a lot more unnecessary harm than any hopeful or 'smart' intellectualism I might get.
Quite happy to live more on the plane of sane simpletons.
Very freeing to relegate my deep thoughts to things like spiritual and academic consideration from Friar Richard Rohr. Or Shakespeare. Or Brene Brown.
My Dad is one of the wisest self-described 'simpletons' I have ever known. I have learned a lot from understanding that my impulse to "drill down," as he calls it, can do me a lot more unnecessary harm than any hopeful or 'smart' intellectualism I might get.
Quite happy to live more on the plane of sane simpletons.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,044
Originally Posted by August252015 
Dudes, y'all are way over my head
And but, we're all drowning in it. But why think about that?
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Me? I'm an artist, always have been, a straight up bs artist 
I always try and leave out the invitation to be called on it/everything.
MythBusters proved you can polish it, so throwing it out , rolling it around in conversation with feedback and rethinks can sometimes yield some right nice nuggets, shiny even sometimes
I always try and leave out the invitation to be called on it/everything.
MythBusters proved you can polish it, so throwing it out , rolling it around in conversation with feedback and rethinks can sometimes yield some right nice nuggets, shiny even sometimes
All is Change
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
Thank you all.
Blind belief is not beneficial. These truths are to be experienced. Unless a truth has been confirmed by direct experience it is quite right to not believe it. Make a study of truth and you are likely to find truths. Meanwhile, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Be mindful of the present moment.
Don't react with craving or aversion, clinging or hatred, hunger or anger. Change the habit of reacting to pleasant and unpleasant feelings within the mind/body. Become more aware of the truth of the present moment. Be aware of the breath as it is, constantly changing, from moment to moment.
Be Free from ignorance, the bondage of ego and misery.
May all be happy, peaceful and liberated.
Blind belief is not beneficial. These truths are to be experienced. Unless a truth has been confirmed by direct experience it is quite right to not believe it. Make a study of truth and you are likely to find truths. Meanwhile, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Be mindful of the present moment.
Don't react with craving or aversion, clinging or hatred, hunger or anger. Change the habit of reacting to pleasant and unpleasant feelings within the mind/body. Become more aware of the truth of the present moment. Be aware of the breath as it is, constantly changing, from moment to moment.
Be Free from ignorance, the bondage of ego and misery.
May all be happy, peaceful and liberated.
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,763
The quote I've had in my signature for almost the entire time I've been a member here was uttered by one of the smartest men in history. It applied to me when I first got sober and it still applies to me today. Yeah sure it'd be nice to know why I drank the way I did...might even be helpful in the long run, but the better question was why should I stop drinking, and the answers were much more obvious. I have a lifetime to solve the question "why did I drink" once I'm sober, but if I didn't figure out the answer to "why don't I quit" when I was contemplating suicide every day back in 2013 then everything else was meaningless.
All is Change
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
I've learned that people have delicate sensibilities and that the plain truth hurts too much sometimes. That's fine. The habit is to ignore or deny that which is painful. The trouble an alcoholic is in is that the way to ignore the pain is to drown it and to keep on drowning it. That's not a good habit. Not healthy to self or to others. The way out of that is to learn to cope with reality as it is, sober.
It's never hard to stop drinking. Every alcoholic does it at least once a day. The difficulty is to stay stopped. To live with reality as it rises out of the alcohol soaked mind.
What I'm suggesting is that living a moral life, strengthening the focus, concentration, awareness of the mind and learning to not react to and becoming more aware of reality and just observing it equanimously will lead each alcoholic who chooses to do so to that peace of mind and happiness that was previously sought in the bottle.
It's a simple path. It doesn't happen overnight so a measure of faith is necessary. At each step it's possible for anyone to be sure it works because the way to live a moral life is a choice everyone can make without input from anyone else. The way to concentrate the mind is based on awareness of the breath that each individual self reliant person carries with them at all times wherever they may find themselves. As we 'see' reality, both inside and out, through the sense organs, we need to heighten our awareness of that seeing and finally as will be seen by all those who choose to practice it: an equanimous observation of that reality (strengthened by the morality and concentration) results in the change of habit necessary to sustain reality which ultimately is that peace and happiness lies within us all. Simply dare to know that. Become self realised. Independent. Self dependent.
It's never hard to stop drinking. Every alcoholic does it at least once a day. The difficulty is to stay stopped. To live with reality as it rises out of the alcohol soaked mind.
What I'm suggesting is that living a moral life, strengthening the focus, concentration, awareness of the mind and learning to not react to and becoming more aware of reality and just observing it equanimously will lead each alcoholic who chooses to do so to that peace of mind and happiness that was previously sought in the bottle.
It's a simple path. It doesn't happen overnight so a measure of faith is necessary. At each step it's possible for anyone to be sure it works because the way to live a moral life is a choice everyone can make without input from anyone else. The way to concentrate the mind is based on awareness of the breath that each individual self reliant person carries with them at all times wherever they may find themselves. As we 'see' reality, both inside and out, through the sense organs, we need to heighten our awareness of that seeing and finally as will be seen by all those who choose to practice it: an equanimous observation of that reality (strengthened by the morality and concentration) results in the change of habit necessary to sustain reality which ultimately is that peace and happiness lies within us all. Simply dare to know that. Become self realised. Independent. Self dependent.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 1,068
Good morning Grymt. I certainly agree with your first statement at the beginning of the thread:
"I have a tendency to intellectualize."
I find your posts interesting and I usually need to read them at least twice to understand them. A lot of informational nuggets in your posts. But at least for me they just seem... complicated. I guess I need another cup of coffee. That said, I hope you keep posting your thoughts. I like the mental stimulation.
Have a great sober day everyone.
"I have a tendency to intellectualize."
I find your posts interesting and I usually need to read them at least twice to understand them. A lot of informational nuggets in your posts. But at least for me they just seem... complicated. I guess I need another cup of coffee. That said, I hope you keep posting your thoughts. I like the mental stimulation.
Have a great sober day everyone.
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