On my 4th step, feeling awful
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Gottalife
Normally I would agree with what you wrote, it was how I was taught, too. Get through the steps quickly, keep moving and taking action, steps 1-3 do not lead to a spiritual awakening.
However, I'm starting to wonder if this should apply to someone with mental illness, or if things should be done differently--perhaps under the guidance of a therapist. Anxiety and depression from alcoholism is different than anxiety and depression from mental illness.
I wish there was a therapist or psychologist familiar with step work on board to chime in.
I am sorry about your friend Will. I've heard others share about really bad experiences with militant sponsors like that.
Normally I would agree with what you wrote, it was how I was taught, too. Get through the steps quickly, keep moving and taking action, steps 1-3 do not lead to a spiritual awakening.
However, I'm starting to wonder if this should apply to someone with mental illness, or if things should be done differently--perhaps under the guidance of a therapist. Anxiety and depression from alcoholism is different than anxiety and depression from mental illness.
I wish there was a therapist or psychologist familiar with step work on board to chime in.
I am sorry about your friend Will. I've heard others share about really bad experiences with militant sponsors like that.
I could see peace instead of this
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Canada, eh
Posts: 2,360
I likely suffered from trauma and PTSD at the time as well as depression and anxiety, but none of that was recognized and I wasn't being treated for any of it. I was so desperate to get away from the drinking then that I did my 4th pretty quickly and I don't even recall having a lot of guidance other than encouragement from my sponsor at the time. She didn't sit with me through the whole thing, just answered any questions I had. It was mostly a solitary journey.
I recall feeling so very awful too--very down on myself and depressed after reviewing all I had written down. My problem was finding anything good about myself, I had such low self-esteem, but that was emphasized to me--to also note the good qualities I had. I did have someone to talk to that ran the sober living house then and she recognized that I should not sit on it anymore beating myself up and to get it done by moving on to my 5th and so she set up an appointment with one of her contacts who had experience with 5th steps. It happened to be a priest, but all that mattered to me was that he was an impartial stranger. (I found that much less difficult than talking to someone I knew, which I did later in another 5th)
Doing that 5th was probably the most freeing thing I've ever done.
A 4th is difficult and not pretty--it was taking a good hard look at myself and seeing what I hadn't wanted to see before. They were things that got in my way and were holding me back from a happy and healthy life. That's not easy at all and takes perseverance and courage.
As for asking for people's numbers on a phone list, I think having a number there is voluntarily and people who help others are getting helped just as much if not more. The advice on finding another sponsor and how to do that here is good.
I recall feeling so very awful too--very down on myself and depressed after reviewing all I had written down. My problem was finding anything good about myself, I had such low self-esteem, but that was emphasized to me--to also note the good qualities I had. I did have someone to talk to that ran the sober living house then and she recognized that I should not sit on it anymore beating myself up and to get it done by moving on to my 5th and so she set up an appointment with one of her contacts who had experience with 5th steps. It happened to be a priest, but all that mattered to me was that he was an impartial stranger. (I found that much less difficult than talking to someone I knew, which I did later in another 5th)
Doing that 5th was probably the most freeing thing I've ever done.
A 4th is difficult and not pretty--it was taking a good hard look at myself and seeing what I hadn't wanted to see before. They were things that got in my way and were holding me back from a happy and healthy life. That's not easy at all and takes perseverance and courage.
As for asking for people's numbers on a phone list, I think having a number there is voluntarily and people who help others are getting helped just as much if not more. The advice on finding another sponsor and how to do that here is good.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
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Laur24 - I completed my 4th step around the 6 month mark. It took me about a month to write it out. The process of writing it started out pretty smooth, and I didn't see why everyone made it out to be such a big deal. However, about halfway through the process I went through some emotional turmoil. It was predominantly anger, which was sometimes towards myself and other times towards other people. I didn't act on any of those emotions. Everyone I have ever asked about a 4th step said that it brought up strong emotions too.
My sponsor was available during the process, and I met with him 2 or 3 times while writing it. Other than that, I called him with a question here and there. I did call other people in the fellowship during the process too, which I found helpful. Any time that my sponsor was going to be out of town he would let me know in advance. In those situations (didn't happen often) he had someone else in the fellowship that would be my temporary sponsor while he was away.
I don't even know if I have a formal mental health diagnoses, but I was a suicide attempt in August 2015. That probably means that I have something wrong with me that the doctors could give a fancy name.
There are lot's of people I know that have gone through extreme trauma (much more trauma than me anyway), and made it through their 4th step. Some of the major events that come to mind: witnessing murders, committing murders, death of children, being sexually molested, working as prostitutes, serving long-term prison sentences, AIDS diagnoses, and pretty much every other awful thing than a human being can experience.
As far as timing goes, I did attempt a 4th step during a prior recovery attempt. It was too soon (probably a month sober), and I couldn't endure the pain. I threw the stepwork away, didn't call my sponsor, and stopped going to meetings. It wasn't long afterwards that I relapsed. That is just my personal experience though. Other people might have been able to do their 4th step early on, but I would have needed a straightjacket.
With regard to the phone lists, most of the people want to get called. I actually had a slight resentment for a while because no one ever called me off of the phone list. There was a time when I even stopped putting my name down on the list. I put my name down now, but I still haven't had anybody call me off of it! It would probably make my whole week if I got a call off of the list.
Maybe you could go to a meeting, share your experience with the step and ask for feedback. That might make it easier for you to identify who you should be talking to after the meeting.
My sponsor was available during the process, and I met with him 2 or 3 times while writing it. Other than that, I called him with a question here and there. I did call other people in the fellowship during the process too, which I found helpful. Any time that my sponsor was going to be out of town he would let me know in advance. In those situations (didn't happen often) he had someone else in the fellowship that would be my temporary sponsor while he was away.
I don't even know if I have a formal mental health diagnoses, but I was a suicide attempt in August 2015. That probably means that I have something wrong with me that the doctors could give a fancy name.
There are lot's of people I know that have gone through extreme trauma (much more trauma than me anyway), and made it through their 4th step. Some of the major events that come to mind: witnessing murders, committing murders, death of children, being sexually molested, working as prostitutes, serving long-term prison sentences, AIDS diagnoses, and pretty much every other awful thing than a human being can experience.
As far as timing goes, I did attempt a 4th step during a prior recovery attempt. It was too soon (probably a month sober), and I couldn't endure the pain. I threw the stepwork away, didn't call my sponsor, and stopped going to meetings. It wasn't long afterwards that I relapsed. That is just my personal experience though. Other people might have been able to do their 4th step early on, but I would have needed a straightjacket.
With regard to the phone lists, most of the people want to get called. I actually had a slight resentment for a while because no one ever called me off of the phone list. There was a time when I even stopped putting my name down on the list. I put my name down now, but I still haven't had anybody call me off of it! It would probably make my whole week if I got a call off of the list.
Maybe you could go to a meeting, share your experience with the step and ask for feedback. That might make it easier for you to identify who you should be talking to after the meeting.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 79
Originally Posted by Obladi 
I'm also wondering about your sponsor and whether you might need a new one? Did you know she was going to be out of town and not available to you? Did she know you were calling her because you were working yourself into knots over working Step 4? If she didn't tell you she wasn't going to be available, then I think it's inappropriate for her to say right that moment, "find someone else." And if she knew you were upset over working Step 4, I think she should've told you to leave it until she was available to work with you.
O
I was resentful and finally called her on Tuesday saying that I was hurt that she didn't call me back. It was then that she told me about her living amends to her family. I've talked to some of my AA friends and they've mentioned I might need a new sponsor.
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We are all rooting for you Laur! Please start calling people and hopefully you can find a good match soon. People will be very receptive. That's why they provided their number. I know it's hard and I'm not looking forward to it either!
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Originally Posted by laur24
She's been out of town before and notified me ahead of time and given me her sponsor's number to call. This specific time she didn't tell me. Basically on Saturday I called her telling her how when I entered AA, sobriety was my last option because I couldn't deal with my deteriorating mental health a moment longer. I was just about to launch into my feelings of hopelessness when she said, "this is a really important conversation, but unfortunately I can't have it with you right now. Please call another AA member." She never called me back Saturday, but Sunday evening she sent me a text saying she was back.
I was resentful and finally called her on Tuesday saying that I was hurt that she didn't call me back. It was then that she told me about her living amends to her family. I've talked to some of my AA friends and they've mentioned I might need a new sponsor.
I was resentful and finally called her on Tuesday saying that I was hurt that she didn't call me back. It was then that she told me about her living amends to her family. I've talked to some of my AA friends and they've mentioned I might need a new sponsor.
I suspect that the solution may lie in you doing what you are not comfortable with (and what your sponsor had suggested you do) and that is reach out more to others in the fellowship.
Also, if you want to discuss your mental health issues, perhaps it's a good time to reconnect with your counsellor. Sponsors are for step work and AA. She's unlikely to be qualified to comment on your mental health after all.
Theres' a great leaflet on sponsorship on the AA website. Might be worth a read through and chat about with your sponsor to establish firmer expectations / boundaries perhaps?
Wishing you all the best for your sobriety and recovery.
BB
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Originally Posted by OpioPhobe
Maybe you could go to a meeting, share your experience with the step and ask for feedback. That might make it easier for you to identify who you should be talking to after the meeting.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Originally Posted by Berrybean
I would suggest getting to some meetings early and staying late so you can chat with people as you help set up and clear up - this tends to lead to more one to one conversations .
Also just approach those AAers with more time than she has. To be honest if she was sitting on a beach with her family it probably wasn;t the best time for her to take your call. Thing is, I took MONTHS to write all of my Step 4. Should my sponsor have been on call 7 days a week 24 hours? I don't think so. Although she does let me know if she'll be away more than a few days and asks to use texting if there is any problem rather than phone so she can just check it periodically. In the beginning of AA people didn't have mobile phones. Sometimes people would not be in.
I think it is all of our responsibilities (in AA or out) to build up our network of support - it's not really that great to just be relying on our sponsor. And their job is to guide through the steps - not just to chat when we're feeling down. That is a call that can be mde to any of the people we have met in the fellowship - I suspect this is why she's asking you to get more numbers. Also, there is a good 12-step community on here you can reach out to and ask questionsabout step work or for support. Not to mention your Higher Power.
What is your personal daily AA recovery routine (aside from meetings and meeting / speaking with your sponsor)? If you are confused about that question (thinking its all about the meetings and sponsor, perhaps that is something we can help you with if you like).
But, saying all that, writing the step 4 CAN be gruelling. It's best to crack on with it - Step 5 will no doubt bring a huge amount of relief.
Alcoholism-12 Step Support - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
Step 4 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
When's she back?
BB
Also just approach those AAers with more time than she has. To be honest if she was sitting on a beach with her family it probably wasn;t the best time for her to take your call. Thing is, I took MONTHS to write all of my Step 4. Should my sponsor have been on call 7 days a week 24 hours? I don't think so. Although she does let me know if she'll be away more than a few days and asks to use texting if there is any problem rather than phone so she can just check it periodically. In the beginning of AA people didn't have mobile phones. Sometimes people would not be in.
I think it is all of our responsibilities (in AA or out) to build up our network of support - it's not really that great to just be relying on our sponsor. And their job is to guide through the steps - not just to chat when we're feeling down. That is a call that can be mde to any of the people we have met in the fellowship - I suspect this is why she's asking you to get more numbers. Also, there is a good 12-step community on here you can reach out to and ask questionsabout step work or for support. Not to mention your Higher Power.
What is your personal daily AA recovery routine (aside from meetings and meeting / speaking with your sponsor)? If you are confused about that question (thinking its all about the meetings and sponsor, perhaps that is something we can help you with if you like).
But, saying all that, writing the step 4 CAN be gruelling. It's best to crack on with it - Step 5 will no doubt bring a huge amount of relief.
Alcoholism-12 Step Support - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
Step 4 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
When's she back?
BB
It's so odd to me because I've been calling my sponsor and she will text back a long two page type text. I sent off a quick reply yesterday asking what her boundaries were on when I can call, and she again sent me a long text saying that asking her was trying to manipulate the situation to make myself feel better. And then she said I shouldn't text her because it's easier to hide behind excuses via text. That entire exchange yesterday flipped my thinking from me taking it personally, to me thinking maybe something is up with her. At that point I started thinking she was projecting and it was better to call some other people for the time being.
I definitely agree with what you're saying. And I totally agree with my sponsor's suggestion to get more phone numbers. Maybe this was entire situation over the weekend was my higher power pushing me to work harder at my recovery.
My personal daily routine.. I wake up and say the morning prayer, 1st step, 2nd step, and 3rd step prayer. I read pages 86-87 when I'm stressed. I haven't been doing my 4th step (but usually I'll try to do step work a bit each day), I go to a meeting, I call my sponsor, I check in with 1 AA friend, and I try to do 3 nice things per day for people without expecting anything in return.
My sponsor suggested calling 5 people. So I'm trying to build my network now. And I'm going to be adding an outpatient program a couple times a week as well.
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Originally Posted by August252015
WHAT BERRYBEAN SAID.
A few thoughts- perhaps a different sponsor is a good idea. I made a change while getting my 4th done and ready for my 5th- one reason I did was because I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with my first sponsor.
I took my time doing the steps "officially" - however, as the BB says, I didn't stagnate. I strongly believe we skip steps or do them in "our own way" at our own peril, even at risk of our sobriety completely.
I was dx with BPD. My symptoms are minimal to nonexistent now that I am sober. Frankly, I am shocked that therapists would tell anyone NOT to do any of the steps. The steps can- are- perhaps even should be- "hard" or "stressful" - we were alcoholics with tornadoes for lives to whatever degree our own story was one of unmanageability and illness.
I don't expect my sponsor to be there 24/7 and I know she is human too, needs her own sponsor, and has her own life and program to live- but I have never heard of a sponsor being officially on break from their role.
Learning to take care of ourselves in sobriety- mentally, emotionally, in every way- can (IMO, it's totally legit that they do) involve multiple avenues and assistance. As far as AA goes, I am a believer that the steps were laid out for good reason - and as I grow I am a believer that living my best life sober means applying them to my life as it unfolds, specifically and with awareness.
A few thoughts- perhaps a different sponsor is a good idea. I made a change while getting my 4th done and ready for my 5th- one reason I did was because I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with my first sponsor.
I took my time doing the steps "officially" - however, as the BB says, I didn't stagnate. I strongly believe we skip steps or do them in "our own way" at our own peril, even at risk of our sobriety completely.
I was dx with BPD. My symptoms are minimal to nonexistent now that I am sober. Frankly, I am shocked that therapists would tell anyone NOT to do any of the steps. The steps can- are- perhaps even should be- "hard" or "stressful" - we were alcoholics with tornadoes for lives to whatever degree our own story was one of unmanageability and illness.
I don't expect my sponsor to be there 24/7 and I know she is human too, needs her own sponsor, and has her own life and program to live- but I have never heard of a sponsor being officially on break from their role.
Learning to take care of ourselves in sobriety- mentally, emotionally, in every way- can (IMO, it's totally legit that they do) involve multiple avenues and assistance. As far as AA goes, I am a believer that the steps were laid out for good reason - and as I grow I am a believer that living my best life sober means applying them to my life as it unfolds, specifically and with awareness.
I definitely don't want to put off the 4th step any longer than I have to. It's super uncomfortable and I just want to be done with it already. Since getting sober, my symptoms were pretty much non-existent, except for this week when I had an anxiety attack and became hopeless.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
Hi Laur24,
If I was you I would be really confused by some of the advice above. Stopping or delaying the steps is really not a good idea, but it is what most of us would have wanted to hear at times.
If I was you I would be really confused by some of the advice above. Stopping or delaying the steps is really not a good idea, but it is what most of us would have wanted to hear at times.
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Originally Posted by leanabeana
Hi Laur. I've been down the 5150 road. I'll do just about anything to avoid that in the future including staying sober.
If you're anything like me, emotional regulation and distress tolerance are huge issues. Making an inventory of your faults is a huge trigger for an emotional CF. Not saying it isn't necessary or useful, but you may not be ready for it. Can you put it on hold for now?
Is there a DBT group in your area that you can join? Make recovery and mental health your full time job. Provide all of the same structure and constant support that you had when you were in the hospital and IOP. Not everyone in recovery understands mental illness so it's really important to be under the constant guidance of a professional. Of course, other AA members can certainly help you get guidance on the steps and offer support in your sobriety, but you need to pull out all the stops if you're feeling hopeless and suicidal.
Of course, I am just a novice in recovery myself but I do know a few things about feeling hopeless and needing professional help.
If you're anything like me, emotional regulation and distress tolerance are huge issues. Making an inventory of your faults is a huge trigger for an emotional CF. Not saying it isn't necessary or useful, but you may not be ready for it. Can you put it on hold for now?
Is there a DBT group in your area that you can join? Make recovery and mental health your full time job. Provide all of the same structure and constant support that you had when you were in the hospital and IOP. Not everyone in recovery understands mental illness so it's really important to be under the constant guidance of a professional. Of course, other AA members can certainly help you get guidance on the steps and offer support in your sobriety, but you need to pull out all the stops if you're feeling hopeless and suicidal.
Of course, I am just a novice in recovery myself but I do know a few things about feeling hopeless and needing professional help.
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
make the calls, laur! theyre waiting for you to call.if the 1st person doesnt answer, leave a message and call the next.
Oh, and about my sponsor. What she said didn't sit well with me either, but she didn't seem to want to discuss it further. I'm hesitant to get a new sponsor while in the midst of step 4. I'm hoping the answer will be revealed in time, and by getting more phone numbers, and talking to more people in the program.
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Pathwaytofree, thanks! I was trying to find a quote to respond to, but just everything you wrote is awesome. I never thought to just stop and take a break from the steps when I'm feeling suicidal. I'm definitely going to do that now.
Also, I'm 100% going to be writing 'God please help me to see the truth' on the top of all of my pages. I've noticed that while writing the 4th step, I've started to feel sorry for myself and I hate that. I start feeling disconnected from God when I start thinking that way.
I've been trying to keep column 2 very brief, so as not to bring up all the emotions, but I think I still dwell on them in my head. I'm going to try to be more factual and detached when I write them.
I used to see a therapist, but stopped when I started working because her hours were only during the day. I was reminded of an outpatient program my insurance has however, that is in the evenings. So I made an appt to see them today so I can get enrolled.
Also, I'm 100% going to be writing 'God please help me to see the truth' on the top of all of my pages. I've noticed that while writing the 4th step, I've started to feel sorry for myself and I hate that. I start feeling disconnected from God when I start thinking that way.
I've been trying to keep column 2 very brief, so as not to bring up all the emotions, but I think I still dwell on them in my head. I'm going to try to be more factual and detached when I write them.
I used to see a therapist, but stopped when I started working because her hours were only during the day. I was reminded of an outpatient program my insurance has however, that is in the evenings. So I made an appt to see them today so I can get enrolled.
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Biminiblue,
I am feeling so much better today. I was so wonderfully surprised when I logged on today to see all the responses. I am so grateful to everyone's suggestions!
I called my sponsor this morning and it kind of put a damper on things. Yesterday she gave me a list of things to do to see if the willingness was there to get out of my depression.
1. call 5 sober program people,
2. be of service to 3 people. do a kind act without asking or expecting anything in return.
3. go to a meeting
4. share about my suicidal thoughts.
I only did one of those things- I went to a meeting. So I was kind of nervous to call her this morning and tell her I didn't do what she asked. She didn't seem very excited when I told her I got a phone number at a meeting last night, or that I'm looking to get signed up in an outpatient evening program. But it was really difficult for me to go to a new meeting and get a phone number! I'm trying not to take it personally. I think something must be going on with her. Her reaction was very different from the rest of my support system.
I really think this is my higher power giving me the opportunity to grow and become stronger in my recovery.
I am feeling so much better today. I was so wonderfully surprised when I logged on today to see all the responses. I am so grateful to everyone's suggestions!
I called my sponsor this morning and it kind of put a damper on things. Yesterday she gave me a list of things to do to see if the willingness was there to get out of my depression.
1. call 5 sober program people,
2. be of service to 3 people. do a kind act without asking or expecting anything in return.
3. go to a meeting
4. share about my suicidal thoughts.
I only did one of those things- I went to a meeting. So I was kind of nervous to call her this morning and tell her I didn't do what she asked. She didn't seem very excited when I told her I got a phone number at a meeting last night, or that I'm looking to get signed up in an outpatient evening program. But it was really difficult for me to go to a new meeting and get a phone number! I'm trying not to take it personally. I think something must be going on with her. Her reaction was very different from the rest of my support system.
I really think this is my higher power giving me the opportunity to grow and become stronger in my recovery.
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Originally Posted by laur24
.
I really think this is my higher power giving me the opportunity to grow and become stronger in my recovery.
I really think this is my higher power giving me the opportunity to grow and become stronger in my recovery.
very well could be the HP sayin,"ok, i got ya all prepared to step out of your comfort zone. even gave ya a nudge here and there. but just as that tomsteve character didnt 'get' the nudge, i think i gotta give a little bigger nudge. i sure hope i dont have to nudge as much as i had to nudge tomsteve. he gave me fits."
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Join Date: Aug 2017
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I'm so glad you're feeling better laur! Too bad about your sponsor's response. There must be something going on with her, but right now you need to think about yourself. You don't need to dump her immediately, but start putting your feelers out for additional support.
I started thinking about IOP last night as well. I wish I had access to an evening program. My insurance only covers the day program and I would have to miss 8 weeks of work. Luckily my therapist is trying to get me in twice a week so that helps.
Keep up the good work!
I started thinking about IOP last night as well. I wish I had access to an evening program. My insurance only covers the day program and I would have to miss 8 weeks of work. Luckily my therapist is trying to get me in twice a week so that helps.
Keep up the good work!
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Originally Posted by leanabeana
I thought you weren't supposed to ask questions during shares?
Laur24 - glad you are feeling better. I don't understand the hold up on what you sponsor asked you to do though. It seems pretty straightforward. Am I missing something?
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Join Date: Aug 2017
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Laur - you shared your suicidal thoughts here and your sharing helped me so there's a kind act. I bet others would say the same so there's 2 or 3 kind acts. That's progress.
I know calling people is hard for you so maybe you'll feel stronger tomorrow. Remember that they want to hear from you. I reached out to an AA buddy today and I felt apprehensive at first but I'm so glad I did. She talked me through something difficult.
Can you volunteer to help make the coffee or clean up at a meeting? This automatically gives you face time with potential supporters and maybe even a new sponsor. It's a more natural exchange than just walking up to someone out of the blue. That would also kill two birds with one stone and fulfill your service for the day.
I know calling people is hard for you so maybe you'll feel stronger tomorrow. Remember that they want to hear from you. I reached out to an AA buddy today and I felt apprehensive at first but I'm so glad I did. She talked me through something difficult.
Can you volunteer to help make the coffee or clean up at a meeting? This automatically gives you face time with potential supporters and maybe even a new sponsor. It's a more natural exchange than just walking up to someone out of the blue. That would also kill two birds with one stone and fulfill your service for the day.
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Originally Posted by laur24
Definitely got a bit confused, but my intuition says I need to finish this 4th step. I know I'm as ready as I'll ever be. 2 years ago I attended AA and zipped through steps 1-3, and then went out on my 4th step. Right now I know I've got a really strong foundation by really spending time on my steps 1-3. However, this weekend was the first time since getting sober that I questioned my higher power. To me, that was a warning sign.
My gut told me the answers were in the steps and the meetings, and I was best to stay out in the world this time and just get on with it.
I talked to my sponsor. He said if you don't feel the need to go, don't go. I didn't so I didn't, and recovered the AA way.
I trusted my gut. I intuitively new that I would come unstuck if I tried easier softer ways.
I have this long standing friend with serious bi polar. He was the one who scraped me up off the floor after my last drink, and took me to a meeting. He helped me a lot with the steps. We spent a lot of time together. He showed me exactly according to the big book, which was how he had taken them. He is over 40 years sober today.
He has expert medical help with his bi polar, but the experts couldn't do much with him until his alcohol problem was solved. Then he made about as good a recovery in every respect as you could wish to see.
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