What's Moo?
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I've always had very vivid dreams as far as I recall but after getting sober (like for many people) it reached a whole different level for a while. It settled down but I still frequently remember 2-3 detailed and intense dreams per night, meaning that my sleep tends to be disrupted somewhat. I frequently have dreams where I am going somewhere or doing something but am getting more and more lost in a dream environment that often becomes more and more dark, desolate and strange. Also the version where I lose something important, look for it everywhere, and never find it. They are the most typical anxiety dreams for me.
When I was in alcohol withdrawal and freshly sober, I had a lot of very disturbing nightmares akin to what I described above but often involving very gory and hopeless elements. And somehow almost every one of them included my parents, one of them or both. Interestingly, the parent motif only started after each of them died: many years ago a long series always just with my mom and more recently, after my dad's passing, my dad started to appear the same way, often both of them. I still have these sometimes and find them very curious considering that I had dramatically different relationships with and feelings for my two parents. But they tend to show up as similar motifs in my dreams. I think they signal something quite different than themselves, my mind just uses them as projections. Can be very disturbing and anxiety triggering not only within the dream but also after waking for an hour or so. I love to dissect my dreams but still don't understand this recurring motif completely. In any case, definitely unmistakable sign of anxiety for me. Just had one of these last night, why this discussion caught my eye
A friend of mine once said "stop doing all that psychoanalytic work and then mom and dad will go back to their grave"
When I was in alcohol withdrawal and freshly sober, I had a lot of very disturbing nightmares akin to what I described above but often involving very gory and hopeless elements. And somehow almost every one of them included my parents, one of them or both. Interestingly, the parent motif only started after each of them died: many years ago a long series always just with my mom and more recently, after my dad's passing, my dad started to appear the same way, often both of them. I still have these sometimes and find them very curious considering that I had dramatically different relationships with and feelings for my two parents. But they tend to show up as similar motifs in my dreams. I think they signal something quite different than themselves, my mind just uses them as projections. Can be very disturbing and anxiety triggering not only within the dream but also after waking for an hour or so. I love to dissect my dreams but still don't understand this recurring motif completely. In any case, definitely unmistakable sign of anxiety for me. Just had one of these last night, why this discussion caught my eye
A friend of mine once said "stop doing all that psychoanalytic work and then mom and dad will go back to their grave" 
Woe is Moo.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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I usual can let even very violent dreams go, but this ones that stay with you long after awakening, or become thematic, I does probe further. Can only deduce that my subconscious is anxious I not gonna make it. I hoping to become lucid in one of this dreams, so I can then speak to my momma and/or change outcome. I only able to "speak" to her 3 time since she die 20 year ago and each time very profound.
Well, no dream last night cuz not really sleep at all. Ugh. Insomnia the worst!
Well, no dream last night cuz not really sleep at all. Ugh. Insomnia the worst!
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Originally Posted by Cow 
I hoping to become lucid in one of this dreams, so I can then speak to my momma and/or change outcome. I only able to "speak" to her 3 time since she die 20 year ago and each time very profound.
For me right now, I think I had that dream because I am procrastinating some important things again and am having a hard time shifting focus. Poor mom and dad have nothing to do with that really other than my unconscious mind kinda tends to associate them with poor self care (I think because that's what I saw them doing in their own lives in many ways, no matter how we loved each-other or did not).
Woe is Moo.
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Originally Posted by Aellyce
no amount of analysis will make some chemical reactions go away if we are physiologically prone to it.
My momma only show up rarely. For me, she my biggest, deepest source of heartache, pain, love, fear, regret, remorse, longing, horror, sadness, unfinishedness (I know is not a word) --so many thing it really would be impossible to analyze what she there to represent. So is profound couple times when I can ask her.
I think maybe right now, I so much in turmoil and suffering that I really wanting and need "momma love," but, I not gonna get that, ever again. Thus, I not ever can catch up to her in the dreams. Many years ago, we was hanging out in dream and I really basking in her momma love, but I become lucid and was crushing because I realize it just only a dream. I ask her "this is dream, isn't it?" and her face fall too, "yes, I was hoping you wouldn't find out." I just grab her and wail!
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Join Date: May 2014
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Originally Posted by StormiNormi
Do you ladies (& men?)
Like milk baths
Do you like milk baths? Spa bathsThere are a plethora of recipes/sents on Pinterest.
Very simple. I also found recipes for home made bath bombs.
Mix 2 cups of high fat powdered milk and spring in the essential oil of your choice. You can mix in oats as well.
Let sit for about a week in an air tight container for the scent to diffuse.
Pour the ingrediet in beakers, pop on topper and decorate with candy canes for a cute presentation
Inexpensive holiday gift to your girlfriends
Voila, a spa in a box! Maybe add a pretty shade of nail polish for after bath pampering.
Like milk baths
Do you like milk baths? Spa bathsThere are a plethora of recipes/sents on Pinterest.
Very simple. I also found recipes for home made bath bombs.
Mix 2 cups of high fat powdered milk and spring in the essential oil of your choice. You can mix in oats as well.
Let sit for about a week in an air tight container for the scent to diffuse.
Pour the ingrediet in beakers, pop on topper and decorate with candy canes for a cute presentation
Inexpensive holiday gift to your girlfriends
Voila, a spa in a box! Maybe add a pretty shade of nail polish for after bath pampering.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Depression certainly has strong and well-known chemical and physiological factors. Why antidepressants exist, even if they don't work for everyone. But yes it's hard to make people understand and accept these things if they don't know from experience. Like addiction.
I think the pattern in my recurrent parent dreams that they only appeared in them after their death is also related to my unconscious craving for things (parental care and parents teaching me self care) that I never really had much in a form appropriate for a child or youngster and with their passing for sure it's out of possibility. I really don't like to admit this to myself though, let alone others... One of my therapists (the psychoanalyst) was seemingly committed to provide some form of maternal nurture to me. That's what he said. He did it in an erratic and intrusive way that very much reminded me of my real mom. So my reaction: "are you *** serious"? But I was actually excited because it's a textbook thing and I was really hoping to dissect it with him. Instead, he moved the whole thing into another area and pretty much got lost in his own reactions but denying it. It was quite annoying, if anything, he probably added to those mental projections I tend to do in this context rather than resolving. The therapist coming after him was much wiser, he never touched the mommy thing without me bringing it up and wanting to discuss. And never tried to explicitly "play mom" for me, thankfully. All of this is quite interesting but I still prefer to parent myself than to expect it from any wannabe surrogate.
That milk bath and nail polish sound much better, I seriously will give it a try!
I think the pattern in my recurrent parent dreams that they only appeared in them after their death is also related to my unconscious craving for things (parental care and parents teaching me self care) that I never really had much in a form appropriate for a child or youngster and with their passing for sure it's out of possibility. I really don't like to admit this to myself though, let alone others... One of my therapists (the psychoanalyst) was seemingly committed to provide some form of maternal nurture to me. That's what he said. He did it in an erratic and intrusive way that very much reminded me of my real mom. So my reaction: "are you *** serious"? But I was actually excited because it's a textbook thing and I was really hoping to dissect it with him. Instead, he moved the whole thing into another area and pretty much got lost in his own reactions but denying it. It was quite annoying, if anything, he probably added to those mental projections I tend to do in this context rather than resolving. The therapist coming after him was much wiser, he never touched the mommy thing without me bringing it up and wanting to discuss. And never tried to explicitly "play mom" for me, thankfully. All of this is quite interesting but I still prefer to parent myself than to expect it from any wannabe surrogate.
That milk bath and nail polish sound much better, I seriously will give it a try!
Woe is Moo.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Why you not like to admit craving for parental care, Ael? Is you think it show weakness or something. Just about every time I has serious breakdown and is cry uncontrollable, I bust out with the calling out for momma. I think it maybe just instinct, yes?
My healer lady give me closest to maternal love, but, you know, I has to pay her. And really what I want is "ideal" maternal love, cuz in reality, momma was no physical affectionate at all. I agree, we must learn to be parent we are needing. Now if only I can grow up and stop all self abuse and get to that. Well, I finally get serious to work on it, and, hey, it only take 51 year! Is tough stuff.
... ... you must really be handful for therapist, Ael. I always analyze them, too. And shamefully admit, I always think I smarter and more insightful than them. Which is total arrogance. I sure it just other wall to keep me in control. ...But, in my defense, they truly IS lot of really bad therapist out there.
My healer lady give me closest to maternal love, but, you know, I has to pay her. And really what I want is "ideal" maternal love, cuz in reality, momma was no physical affectionate at all. I agree, we must learn to be parent we are needing. Now if only I can grow up and stop all self abuse and get to that. Well, I finally get serious to work on it, and, hey, it only take 51 year! Is tough stuff.
... ... you must really be handful for therapist, Ael.
I always analyze them, too. And shamefully admit, I always think I smarter and more insightful than them. Which is total arrogance. I sure it just other wall to keep me in control. ...But, in my defense, they truly IS lot of really bad therapist out there.
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Originally Posted by Cow
I
I think maybe right now, I so much in turmoil and suffering that I really wanting and need "momma love," but, I not gonna get that, ever again. Thus, I not ever can catch up to her in the dreams. Many years ago, we was hanging out in dream and I really basking in her momma love, but I become lucid and was crushing because I realize it just only a dream. I ask her "this is dream, isn't it?" and her face fall too, "yes, I was hoping you wouldn't find out." I just grab her and wail!
I think maybe right now, I so much in turmoil and suffering that I really wanting and need "momma love," but, I not gonna get that, ever again. Thus, I not ever can catch up to her in the dreams. Many years ago, we was hanging out in dream and I really basking in her momma love, but I become lucid and was crushing because I realize it just only a dream. I ask her "this is dream, isn't it?" and her face fall too, "yes, I was hoping you wouldn't find out." I just grab her and wail!
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
It's a defense, a false sense of independence and autonomy. Building walls instead of using healthy boundaries, dismissing my needs rather than seeking them out. I do admit it without much problem now but it's not something I will talk about with anyone. And it's still an internal fight quite often. I am sure you remember the very first Authenticity thread with Robby... I was totally floored participating in it (and later the whole series, for many reasons). Robby was describing and dissecting with us the whole phenomenon in that first thread in a way that kept making me breathless... I had never heard anyone else describing that experience that resembled so precisely mine. I am sure part of it was projection but was and am still confident about a lot of the similarities, and it was so beautifully presented and unwrapped. I did a lot of similar "work" later with my therapists but they were rarely as satisfying because they tend to be more one-sided.
Haha, yes I am indeed a handful for the therapists I believe but it seemed as though they liked it, dissection, disagreements, conflicts, challenges, and all. Yes it can be arrogant and cynical to question them sometimes, for sure. But vice versa when they sometimes believe they know the answer to everything due to their training and experience. There were a lot of valuable experiences and lessons for me with each therapist, and there was also a variety of misinterpretations and blinds spots with all of them. I do sometimes tend to idealize them (and other people I expect wisdom and learning from) initially but it never lasts long... the concept of "ideal love" or care never really sticks in my mind, I just don't believe in pure things when I approach the world consciously. But those unconscious emotional things from behind the defenses can be a whole different part of the reality. I think it is great progress if these areas are not in constant conflict yet we can use ideals constructively. Anyway, I love being in therapy. Right now I am taking a break from it but have a deal with the last person that I am free to return anytime, if I want for regular sessions or just occasional meetings. It is different from the previous ones in that with those I always wanted closure after a while. With this last guy, I much prefer open ended and he is good with that. I think if I want to see a therapist again, I will definitely go back to him instead of finding yet another one, I liked him best and also found him most competent. Well, also most expensive,... oh well.
That feeling you guys describe, wanting to find the missing love, comfort and understanding is something I tend to experience in my fantasy world more in regard to my father, or father figures (also all the male therapists, never chose a female so far). I still have a massive dose of resistance regarding "maternal love", I think.
Haha, yes I am indeed a handful for the therapists I believe but it seemed as though they liked it, dissection, disagreements, conflicts, challenges, and all. Yes it can be arrogant and cynical to question them sometimes, for sure. But vice versa when they sometimes believe they know the answer to everything due to their training and experience. There were a lot of valuable experiences and lessons for me with each therapist, and there was also a variety of misinterpretations and blinds spots with all of them. I do sometimes tend to idealize them (and other people I expect wisdom and learning from) initially but it never lasts long... the concept of "ideal love" or care never really sticks in my mind, I just don't believe in pure things when I approach the world consciously. But those unconscious emotional things from behind the defenses can be a whole different part of the reality. I think it is great progress if these areas are not in constant conflict yet we can use ideals constructively. Anyway, I love being in therapy. Right now I am taking a break from it but have a deal with the last person that I am free to return anytime, if I want for regular sessions or just occasional meetings. It is different from the previous ones in that with those I always wanted closure after a while. With this last guy, I much prefer open ended and he is good with that. I think if I want to see a therapist again, I will definitely go back to him instead of finding yet another one, I liked him best and also found him most competent. Well, also most expensive,... oh well.
That feeling you guys describe, wanting to find the missing love, comfort and understanding is something I tend to experience in my fantasy world more in regard to my father, or father figures (also all the male therapists, never chose a female so far). I still have a massive dose of resistance regarding "maternal love", I think.
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Oh something relevant that I just remembered, speaking about therapy... Two of my therapists (and a bunch of psych theories) believe that what many addicts really crave is love, often a form of missing (or never satisfyingly experienced) parental love. But that need becomes unconscious and we substitute it with our drug of choice, then keep "seeking" it in all the wrong places. If this is true, then those on the F&F side of SR are at least more honest with themselves I guess...
Woe is Moo.
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What is F&F?
I think I definitely needing "love" now, but not sure I concur with theory that addiction born from seeking love. I very sure at time when I start with the eating disorders, it was absolutely to soothe and distract and detach from what happening. ... ... although, at times, sausage and mushroom pizza does feel little bit like love. Maybe if I have proper love in youth, I not go off into addiction, or, maybe love now would make easier to let go of addiction.
It all so convoluted, yes?
I think I definitely needing "love" now, but not sure I concur with theory that addiction born from seeking love. I very sure at time when I start with the eating disorders, it was absolutely to soothe and distract and detach from what happening. ... ... although, at times, sausage and mushroom pizza does feel little bit like love.
Maybe if I have proper love in youth, I not go off into addiction, or, maybe love now would make easier to let go of addiction. It all so convoluted, yes?
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when I try to find something nice about my Pop I go back to our last conversation in Nov 1999.. 2 days before he passed... Ardy when its your turn I will come to get you and you buy the donuts and I will buy the coffee.. my best big kid day with my Pop Oct 1968 morning when I found him and 3 buddies having coffee and donuts.. and I got called into their circle of chat andlaughter and teasing about being a college kid.. and then the check came.. mine mine mine.. all of 2.50 for 5 of us back then for coffee and donuts ... Money falling out of her pockets they all kidded... big spender Quilling . hahahahaha... my best day with my Pop in 10 years for that half hour.. then off to class....
Parents and love.. I did not raise my children as my Parents had raised me.. it was harder as a single Mom in 1980's.. and Ivan being ill... but we all learned so much. they are doing so well. and I tell them all the time how proud of them all and separately I can.. for without them I would not have a roof over my head... and they know how hard it was to grow up with my Pop at the edge.. love family and holidays.. I know Ed is lots without his Pop and he won't admit it.. when we were at Nancy's for the weekend .. I am a hugger. and we were leaving.. I know she wanted Ed to hug her and say Happy Birthday Mom.. the I love you would have been icing on the cake.. I have to say it first to get him to respond... what to do. what to do.. make a dinner this weekend that your Mom would have made ... put her photo up on the table and set and extra missing man place... talk to her Moo.. for she is listening ...yep I believe that with all my heart.. for when I need my Pop... his fav music comes on someplace and I know he is near by...
love kiddo so much love a Moms hug a kiss on each each.. and a punch in the arm... prayers for a better tomorrow.. Wisconsin..
Parents and love.. I did not raise my children as my Parents had raised me.. it was harder as a single Mom in 1980's.. and Ivan being ill... but we all learned so much. they are doing so well. and I tell them all the time how proud of them all and separately I can.. for without them I would not have a roof over my head... and they know how hard it was to grow up with my Pop at the edge.. love family and holidays.. I know Ed is lots without his Pop and he won't admit it.. when we were at Nancy's for the weekend .. I am a hugger. and we were leaving.. I know she wanted Ed to hug her and say Happy Birthday Mom.. the I love you would have been icing on the cake.. I have to say it first to get him to respond... what to do. what to do.. make a dinner this weekend that your Mom would have made ... put her photo up on the table and set and extra missing man place... talk to her Moo.. for she is listening ...yep I believe that with all my heart.. for when I need my Pop... his fav music comes on someplace and I know he is near by...
love kiddo so much love a Moms hug a kiss on each each.. and a punch in the arm... prayers for a better tomorrow.. Wisconsin..
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F&F = Friends and Family. Was referring to all the discussion about codependency etc.
I don't buy that theory either as something that explains addiction in a simple and universal way, It's far more complex, I think.
Yeah I had that story about eating disorder as well. Also had a strong tendency to curb my alcohol cravings with food when I was freshly sober, for more than just a couple weeks. It worked very well for me but obviously not the most sensible solution long-term...
When I struggled with the eating disorder, I found that I very often used the eating binges to neutralize ongoing anxiety. I think people do similar about depression. Food can have a powerful rewarding effect, especially in people who can't wait for something like love to show up or kick in. We want a quick and strong hit to our brains
Ardy, good on you for parenting differently!
I don't buy that theory either as something that explains addiction in a simple and universal way, It's far more complex, I think.
Yeah I had that story about eating disorder as well. Also had a strong tendency to curb my alcohol cravings with food when I was freshly sober, for more than just a couple weeks. It worked very well for me but obviously not the most sensible solution long-term...
When I struggled with the eating disorder, I found that I very often used the eating binges to neutralize ongoing anxiety. I think people do similar about depression. Food can have a powerful rewarding effect, especially in people who can't wait for something like love to show up or kick in. We want a quick and strong hit to our brains
Ardy, good on you for parenting differently!
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I'm glad I popped in on this discussion, I was talking about my struggles in my relationship with my mother over in the Emotional Maturity thread, if you get a chance to look at that... The major things are gaps or breakdowns in communication because one person is absent (as in not present in the conversation in the moment because she is taking everything back to past events and conversations) or the other.. It used to be me and her, now it's just her.. and it is frustrating.. all of my frustrations in life currently have to do with not being able to bridge emotional divides between myself and loved ones, and feeling like I have made myself available and have taken the initiative to reach as far as I possibly can over the center line to reach them, and I still fail to reach them on a level of unconditional love and understanding.
I am wrapped up in all sorts of fear right now in terms of opening up to others and making myself vulnerable. I want to join the Church and I couldn't even make the phone call today to inquire about the process, because the prospect makes me feel vulnerable. I allow in the fear that my mother will judge me because she feels that Christianity demeans women (it doesn't, guys.. it truly.. just doesn't). This anxiety comes up and as anxious thoughts tend to do, it projects about things that may never even happen.. When I get married in the Catholic Church will she even want to be there? That's unreasonable, I don't have enough information to know that, and I am not there.. I have so much fear of rejection from my mother.. because I have been rejected by her before, many many times.. sometimes because I was wrong, sometimes because she was...
And you guys have been talking about loving the child in you that did not receive parental love... that's what we need to do... and I have forgiven my inner child for a lot of things... I resolved the past, and moved on from the past... but I can't control that present and future dynamics may stay aligned with what had happened in the past, that my mother very well may continue to reject certain aspects of who I am... She may never believe that I am sober. She may always question that. Can I handle that? Not as yet..
I am wrapped up in all sorts of fear right now in terms of opening up to others and making myself vulnerable. I want to join the Church and I couldn't even make the phone call today to inquire about the process, because the prospect makes me feel vulnerable. I allow in the fear that my mother will judge me because she feels that Christianity demeans women (it doesn't, guys.. it truly.. just doesn't). This anxiety comes up and as anxious thoughts tend to do, it projects about things that may never even happen.. When I get married in the Catholic Church will she even want to be there? That's unreasonable, I don't have enough information to know that, and I am not there.. I have so much fear of rejection from my mother.. because I have been rejected by her before, many many times.. sometimes because I was wrong, sometimes because she was...
And you guys have been talking about loving the child in you that did not receive parental love... that's what we need to do... and I have forgiven my inner child for a lot of things... I resolved the past, and moved on from the past... but I can't control that present and future dynamics may stay aligned with what had happened in the past, that my mother very well may continue to reject certain aspects of who I am... She may never believe that I am sober. She may always question that. Can I handle that? Not as yet..
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