I think I've got this wrong?
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
I think I've got this wrong?
As I understand it, addiction to alcohol is the result of a mental obsession, affecting approximately 90% of those generally referred to as alcoholics.
The remaining 10%, suffering from alcoholism, which is a disease/illness comprising of a mental obsession and a physical allergy.
Addiction, to anything, can be cured by those addicted, changing their perspective, so that if they don't return to it, they are free of it, in terms of its existence in their personal lives.
Alcoholism, cannot be cured, the only respite from its destructive effects on anyone suffering it, being absolute abstinence from alcohol, which is but a symptom of it.
Noting at the same time, it's the only illness that'll kill you whilst at the same time telling you, you haven't got it
My source for this information is the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' read in conjunction with a recording of 'Charlie & Joe's: Big Book Study Meeting', together with my own thirty year drinking history and well over seven years in sobriety. And other associated books, recordings, etc.
This question prompted by what appears to be the constant confusion, accepting that alcoholism is often referred to as 'the illness of ignorance' between addiction to alcohol and alcoholism...unless of course., I've got it wrong?
No doubt constructive comment or criticism, by others more knowledgable than I, will resolve this...
The remaining 10%, suffering from alcoholism, which is a disease/illness comprising of a mental obsession and a physical allergy.
Addiction, to anything, can be cured by those addicted, changing their perspective, so that if they don't return to it, they are free of it, in terms of its existence in their personal lives.
Alcoholism, cannot be cured, the only respite from its destructive effects on anyone suffering it, being absolute abstinence from alcohol, which is but a symptom of it.
Noting at the same time, it's the only illness that'll kill you whilst at the same time telling you, you haven't got it
My source for this information is the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' read in conjunction with a recording of 'Charlie & Joe's: Big Book Study Meeting', together with my own thirty year drinking history and well over seven years in sobriety. And other associated books, recordings, etc.
This question prompted by what appears to be the constant confusion, accepting that alcoholism is often referred to as 'the illness of ignorance' between addiction to alcohol and alcoholism...unless of course., I've got it wrong?
No doubt constructive comment or criticism, by others more knowledgable than I, will resolve this...
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Casper, WY
Posts: 287
Very interesting. Can anyone shed light as to whether the term "alcoholic" or "alcoholism" have any medical jurisprudence? I know the DSM-IV and DSM-V have criteria for "Alcohol Dependence," which encompass both physiological and psychological symptoms denoting systemic conditions. While "alcoholism" is sometimes used by myself and others as an interhangeable, colloquial term, I'm unaware if it carries any weight within the medical community.
Bottom line for me is this...
My alcohol dependence/alcoholism, like cancer or diabetes, cannot be cured as of yet. The old saw of "Science may one day accomplish this..." Symptons, which are acute, can be managed from both a physiological and psychological standpoint with continued treatment, which deals with the more chronic summary umbrella terms of alcoholism. I abstain from drinking, environments that trigger cravings, and engage in behavior modifications. These address a bevy of physiological and psychological criteria which are often part and parcel to the greater whole of "being" alcoholic and/or alcohol dependent.
Insofar as ignorance, I would argue that only undiagnosed cases are a disease of ignorance. Denial IS a classic symptom, and once the criteria are met, it's viciously hard to quantify whether the individual actually remains ignorant, or becomes aware but intellectually chooses to deny the truth via pathological behaviors. For me, after the first few online quizzes and brief forays into AA, I was thoroughly aware, but made every attempt to make it go away through intellectual warfare. It's not uncommon for othet diagnosed diseases. Ever hear of a patient seeking a second opinion? A third? A fourth? Arguing with the docs, explaining symptoms away? I would speculate that the level of denial in, say, a cancer diagnosis might be less due to a few things...
1) Cancer/other diseases lacks social stigma.
2) Alcoholics/alcohol dependepnt persons can remain reasonably functional for long periods, until the progression is externally too difficult to ignore as they pass that stage of the disease.
3) Alcoholism/alcohol dependence affects cognitive judgement in such a way that demonstrable, empirical evidence is disregarded due to unclear, irrational thinking.
4) Early attempts at diagnosis are often from external, non-systemic, non-medical symptoms, and are easier to rationalize away than concrete, medically driven diagnosis (which may or may not be accepted anyway, due to the reasons above).
Addiction comes in many forms, but not all have the significant effects on cognitive reasoning that short and long term drinking do. I smoked cigarettes, but they didn't turn me into a blithering idiot that would deny the health effects. I drink too much coffee, and while it affects my central nervous system, the effects are miniscule compared to my liter-a-day habit of alcoholic drinking.
When I spent my 49 days under the care of the State of Wyoming in an acute mental hospital, this is stuff I got to think a lot about. The overlap, for me, was with my Major Depressive Disorder feeding my alcohol dependency. Classic self-medication, etc et all. So, for me, it really became a chicken-and-egg argument. My depression predates my drinking by years, but it was clear they fed off one another. Again, while I'm not an M.D., I can think of instances where concurrent ailments overlap, affecting symptoms, diagnoses, and treatment methodology. An extreme example is that people don't die of AIDS, they typically die as a result of an infection which AIDS exacerbated through disallowing the immune system to fight other acute diseases. My depression was so severe that there was NO hope or enjoyment in my life, so even the temporary and increasingly fleeting euphoria of drinking was a release from the emotional hell I was living in. That it only exacerbated my depression was mitigated by the manipulation of my reward centers and dopamine levels and other medical alterations to my body. The physical fueled the psychological which fueled the physical which fueled the psychological...
(My name is Yon Yonson, I work in Wisconsin, I work in a lumber mill there...)
So, do you have it wrong? I don't think so. The methodology for diagnosis and treatment will vary greatly from the DSM versus the Big Book, but ultimately, my docs and treatment teams were uninterested in how I arrived at my conclusion of me being alcoholic/alcohol dependent. The emphasis, both from them and from my various support groups which included AA in the past (and likely will again in the future) was what will I do to treat it? The shrinks and DSM emphasised that the acute medical part wasn't the major issue, and the Big Book uses a different criteria to get to same conclusion. So, different roads leading to the same important fork in MY road. It simply depends upon which perspective I choose to examine my disease. However, when the conclusion is the same, then acceptance is the key to beginning treatment. If a cancer patient refuses to acknowledge their ailment, they also won't recieve treatment. In this way, the concrete definitions become less important than how I choose to accept and live with my uncurable malady.
I'm done typing on my phone for a bit...heh.
Bottom line for me is this...
My alcohol dependence/alcoholism, like cancer or diabetes, cannot be cured as of yet. The old saw of "Science may one day accomplish this..." Symptons, which are acute, can be managed from both a physiological and psychological standpoint with continued treatment, which deals with the more chronic summary umbrella terms of alcoholism. I abstain from drinking, environments that trigger cravings, and engage in behavior modifications. These address a bevy of physiological and psychological criteria which are often part and parcel to the greater whole of "being" alcoholic and/or alcohol dependent.
Insofar as ignorance, I would argue that only undiagnosed cases are a disease of ignorance. Denial IS a classic symptom, and once the criteria are met, it's viciously hard to quantify whether the individual actually remains ignorant, or becomes aware but intellectually chooses to deny the truth via pathological behaviors. For me, after the first few online quizzes and brief forays into AA, I was thoroughly aware, but made every attempt to make it go away through intellectual warfare. It's not uncommon for othet diagnosed diseases. Ever hear of a patient seeking a second opinion? A third? A fourth? Arguing with the docs, explaining symptoms away? I would speculate that the level of denial in, say, a cancer diagnosis might be less due to a few things...
1) Cancer/other diseases lacks social stigma.
2) Alcoholics/alcohol dependepnt persons can remain reasonably functional for long periods, until the progression is externally too difficult to ignore as they pass that stage of the disease.
3) Alcoholism/alcohol dependence affects cognitive judgement in such a way that demonstrable, empirical evidence is disregarded due to unclear, irrational thinking.
4) Early attempts at diagnosis are often from external, non-systemic, non-medical symptoms, and are easier to rationalize away than concrete, medically driven diagnosis (which may or may not be accepted anyway, due to the reasons above).
Addiction comes in many forms, but not all have the significant effects on cognitive reasoning that short and long term drinking do. I smoked cigarettes, but they didn't turn me into a blithering idiot that would deny the health effects. I drink too much coffee, and while it affects my central nervous system, the effects are miniscule compared to my liter-a-day habit of alcoholic drinking.
When I spent my 49 days under the care of the State of Wyoming in an acute mental hospital, this is stuff I got to think a lot about. The overlap, for me, was with my Major Depressive Disorder feeding my alcohol dependency. Classic self-medication, etc et all. So, for me, it really became a chicken-and-egg argument. My depression predates my drinking by years, but it was clear they fed off one another. Again, while I'm not an M.D., I can think of instances where concurrent ailments overlap, affecting symptoms, diagnoses, and treatment methodology. An extreme example is that people don't die of AIDS, they typically die as a result of an infection which AIDS exacerbated through disallowing the immune system to fight other acute diseases. My depression was so severe that there was NO hope or enjoyment in my life, so even the temporary and increasingly fleeting euphoria of drinking was a release from the emotional hell I was living in. That it only exacerbated my depression was mitigated by the manipulation of my reward centers and dopamine levels and other medical alterations to my body. The physical fueled the psychological which fueled the physical which fueled the psychological...
(My name is Yon Yonson, I work in Wisconsin, I work in a lumber mill there...)
So, do you have it wrong? I don't think so. The methodology for diagnosis and treatment will vary greatly from the DSM versus the Big Book, but ultimately, my docs and treatment teams were uninterested in how I arrived at my conclusion of me being alcoholic/alcohol dependent. The emphasis, both from them and from my various support groups which included AA in the past (and likely will again in the future) was what will I do to treat it? The shrinks and DSM emphasised that the acute medical part wasn't the major issue, and the Big Book uses a different criteria to get to same conclusion. So, different roads leading to the same important fork in MY road. It simply depends upon which perspective I choose to examine my disease. However, when the conclusion is the same, then acceptance is the key to beginning treatment. If a cancer patient refuses to acknowledge their ailment, they also won't recieve treatment. In this way, the concrete definitions become less important than how I choose to accept and live with my uncurable malady.
I'm done typing on my phone for a bit...heh.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Thanks for your inspirational, thoughtful post.
An interesting, intelligent and articulate response which provided much by way of constructive comment, thank you.
For myself, I think I'll stick with the AA maxim to,'Keep it simple' given that I'm enjoying prolonged and hopefully lasting, no reason to think otherwise, sobriety.
Which is not to say others aren't free to choose what path or program that suits them. My only proviso being that it's based in cognitive (truth and reason) thinking.
Bearing in mind the Buddhist saying, 'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned.' A lot of truth in that, thanks again.
For myself, I think I'll stick with the AA maxim to,'Keep it simple' given that I'm enjoying prolonged and hopefully lasting, no reason to think otherwise, sobriety.
Which is not to say others aren't free to choose what path or program that suits them. My only proviso being that it's based in cognitive (truth and reason) thinking.
Bearing in mind the Buddhist saying, 'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned.' A lot of truth in that, thanks again.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Casper, WY
Posts: 287
Logic presumes a sound mind. When I was pounding down a liter of Fleischman's a day, my mind was anything but sound.
Jillian Guiller: "Sure you won't change your mind?"
Spock: "Is there something wrong with the one I have?"
That bit of dialogue from Star Trek IV always cracks me up, but it seems pertinent, and not just because it was more subtle than Spock's colorful metaphors ("They are not the hell your whales."). Plenty of people tried to tell me my mind was messed up. But my mind was messed up, so I couldn't see how messed up my mind was. "My name is Yon Yonson, I work in Wisconsin..."
Even now, after my initial response, I sent a link to a couple friends also in recovery. I told them to check my logic, since my Spock ears are in the shop.
Jillian Guiller: "Sure you won't change your mind?"
Spock: "Is there something wrong with the one I have?"
That bit of dialogue from Star Trek IV always cracks me up, but it seems pertinent, and not just because it was more subtle than Spock's colorful metaphors ("They are not the hell your whales."). Plenty of people tried to tell me my mind was messed up. But my mind was messed up, so I couldn't see how messed up my mind was. "My name is Yon Yonson, I work in Wisconsin..."
Even now, after my initial response, I sent a link to a couple friends also in recovery. I told them to check my logic, since my Spock ears are in the shop.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
So you are asking a question that you feel you already know the answer to, and will stick to the "big book" regardless. 
That's fine.
Alcoholism is certainly a physical ailment, caused by drinking too much alcohol too often for too many years. There's evidence for a genetic predisposition, so it's not entirely the drink, and there are social factors often rooted in childhood that drive people to drink (escape, for example). But the "cure" is to never drink again, and there's abundant evidence that our brains eventually become indistinguishable even by specialists from the brains of people who were never alcohol addicts. There are lots and lots of references that I don't have handy, but that's pretty much what objective science says.
Doesn't mean you can drink again, necessarily (you can rebuild that chemical dependency really quickly), but as far as any tests can discern you are free of the last symptoms. And it doesn't mean you are now perfect and well-adjusted, you're still a human being with strengths and issues and baggage, but at least you aren't an addict anymore.
DSM-5 uses the phrase "alcohol use disorder", and it's a spectrum, not either/or. Most people are on the low end, some of us went all the way to the other end, but most people with alcohol problems jump off on their own somewhere along the way.
I think that's the key, reflected in the DSM-5 definition accepted by the medical community. It's a spectrum, not either/or, and there aren't any clean sharp boundaries.
That's fine.Alcoholism is certainly a physical ailment, caused by drinking too much alcohol too often for too many years. There's evidence for a genetic predisposition, so it's not entirely the drink, and there are social factors often rooted in childhood that drive people to drink (escape, for example). But the "cure" is to never drink again, and there's abundant evidence that our brains eventually become indistinguishable even by specialists from the brains of people who were never alcohol addicts. There are lots and lots of references that I don't have handy, but that's pretty much what objective science says.
Doesn't mean you can drink again, necessarily (you can rebuild that chemical dependency really quickly), but as far as any tests can discern you are free of the last symptoms. And it doesn't mean you are now perfect and well-adjusted, you're still a human being with strengths and issues and baggage, but at least you aren't an addict anymore.
DSM-5 uses the phrase "alcohol use disorder", and it's a spectrum, not either/or. Most people are on the low end, some of us went all the way to the other end, but most people with alcohol problems jump off on their own somewhere along the way.
I think that's the key, reflected in the DSM-5 definition accepted by the medical community. It's a spectrum, not either/or, and there aren't any clean sharp boundaries.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Your perception of me and my question...
Your perception of me and my question is yours, not mine. Thank you for your response, always good to hear others POV, especially when it's offered in a constructive manner, thank you.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I don't know if there is a right and wrong to this question, Redmayne. I would suggest that restricting yourself to one source is unneccessarily limiting and cannot provide you with a balanced understanding. If you want to learn more about it, maybe you could expand your reading. I suggest Gabor Mate, Katherine Ketcham, Veronica Valli, or any of the authors mentioned in Anna's sticky - http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...rituality.html. There is a tremendous amount of literature listed there, and a survey of that material would give you the ability to evaluate your hypothesis yourself.
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,360
I think it's hard to separate symptoms sometimes. I have a hard time knowing where some of my weirdness came from; drinking too much, this type of abuse or this other type of abuse or some malfunction in my hardware. For example the OCD traits I exhibited while drinking. I was starting to become very ritual in some of my behaviors especially related to drinking. I would get stuck on thought pattern loops and not be able to get off of them. That , so it would seem, is not unusual for someone who is poisoning themselves with this drug. After this long they are mostly gone but I still have occasion to go round and round with myself. Is that because of the alcoholism or something else?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
Red,
The more I read and learn about drinking, the more I realise that its different roads to the same place.
There is line and once you are over, you are over. Whether you have reached the line, only you can know, but you do.
Thanks for your post.
The more I read and learn about drinking, the more I realise that its different roads to the same place.
There is line and once you are over, you are over. Whether you have reached the line, only you can know, but you do.
Thanks for your post.
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
In my opinion alcohol addiction and alcoholism are the same thing. They both have physiological and psychological components. It has also been my observation that the majority of those with these issues also have a pre-existing mental health problem. I have found it to exceedingly rare that someone has become addicted/alcoholic simply from long term over consumption. The solution is the same. Permanent abstinence and getting down to the causes and conditions that led to the addiction/alcoholism.
I made my own recovery path. Some aspects definitely resembled AA others didn't. What I did find were men and women who had found a way to live life in a way that I wanted and I asked them for help.
My alcoholism is only a part of me. It doesn't define me. I have no fear of obsessions, triggers, etc. Nor do I feel I am only living a life of a daily reprieve from it. I also don't believe in the allergy concept or even the beast. What I do believe is there is many ways to recover. Just look. Be open minded and open hearted. Anyone who truly wants to recover can.
I made my own recovery path. Some aspects definitely resembled AA others didn't. What I did find were men and women who had found a way to live life in a way that I wanted and I asked them for help.
My alcoholism is only a part of me. It doesn't define me. I have no fear of obsessions, triggers, etc. Nor do I feel I am only living a life of a daily reprieve from it. I also don't believe in the allergy concept or even the beast. What I do believe is there is many ways to recover. Just look. Be open minded and open hearted. Anyone who truly wants to recover can.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Not really...
Not really, as the question arose in my mind due to what appears to be the constant confusion displayed by others as to credible descriptions as to the difference between addiction to alcohol and alcoholism consists of, accepting that the answer to both centers in the mind.
Together with, also accepting that we are all free to choose our own path or program of recovery, with for my part, the proviso that it provides prolonged and lasting sobriety.
Balanced against my own and others experiences, whilst noting that, from a BBC News online report, that 90% of US Rehab. facilities run programs based on AA's 12 Step program.
Which has not only been in existence but as far as I'm aware can boast, over the years, notable success for something like 80 years, whilst we are constantly bombarded by those who offer much simpler, easier alternatives. Which provide no proof either of their credibility or if they work! On any sustained level, that would benefit the individual...usually the product of those who know all the answers but none of the questions...
Together with, also accepting that we are all free to choose our own path or program of recovery, with for my part, the proviso that it provides prolonged and lasting sobriety.
Balanced against my own and others experiences, whilst noting that, from a BBC News online report, that 90% of US Rehab. facilities run programs based on AA's 12 Step program.
Which has not only been in existence but as far as I'm aware can boast, over the years, notable success for something like 80 years, whilst we are constantly bombarded by those who offer much simpler, easier alternatives. Which provide no proof either of their credibility or if they work! On any sustained level, that would benefit the individual...usually the product of those who know all the answers but none of the questions...
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by Redmayne 
Not really, as the question arose in my mind due to what appears to be the constant confusion displayed by others as to credible descriptions as to the difference between addiction to alcohol and alcoholism consists of, accepting that the answer to both centers in the mind.
Together with, also accepting that we are all free to choose our own path or program of recovery, with for my part, the proviso that it provides prolonged and lasting sobriety.
Balanced against my own and others experiences, whilst noting that, from a BBC News online report, that 90% of US Rehab. facilities run programs based on AA's 12 Step program.
Which has not only been in existence but as far as I'm aware can boast, over the years, notable success for something like 80 years, whilst we are constantly bombarded by those who offer much simpler, easier alternatives. Which provide no proof either of their credibility or if they work! On any sustained level, that would benefit the individual...usually the product of those who know all the answers but none of the questions...
Together with, also accepting that we are all free to choose our own path or program of recovery, with for my part, the proviso that it provides prolonged and lasting sobriety.
Balanced against my own and others experiences, whilst noting that, from a BBC News online report, that 90% of US Rehab. facilities run programs based on AA's 12 Step program.
Which has not only been in existence but as far as I'm aware can boast, over the years, notable success for something like 80 years, whilst we are constantly bombarded by those who offer much simpler, easier alternatives. Which provide no proof either of their credibility or if they work! On any sustained level, that would benefit the individual...usually the product of those who know all the answers but none of the questions...
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
I have also read that AA can only boast of about 5% success in the first year. Me, like I have said I made my own program but I haven't slipped once in over 4 years. And yet I know of plenty of people who have used AA in and out of rehabs and relapse seems to be a part of their life.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Casper, WY
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by Redmayne
usually the product of those who know all the answers but none of the questions...
I know that I had to get beat up pretty badly before I started asking the right questions. Financial ruin, two trips through 90 day inpatient treatment, my previously mentioned mental health vacation courtesy of the State of Wyoming and a judge, etc, et all. I've had my lows, but like I said before, a number of factors kept me from a willingness to accept my condition. So, I showed up saying "I need help! I can't live like this anymore! Life sucks!" and then, maybe-not-quite-but-very-nearly in the same breath, going "So here's how I expect to be helped!"
I was smarter than the DSM, the shrinks, the therapists, the sober members of AA, not to mention all the family and friends that loved me, cared for me, and could see the mess I was and was becoming.
So yes, I think you're dead on. It's a matter of the mindset that allows a willingness to accept the summary conclusion of all the displayed symptoms. Medical, social, psychological, whatever...if I don't accept them, I can't treat them. This remains analogous to other conditions in the disease model, since, regardless of what you have, if you choose to deny it, effective treatment is all but an impossibility.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Thank you...
Thank you to all those who've contributed and acknowledged to this thread thus far and to those who may yet do so, you've certainly helped me a lot...
To be honest, I my desire to drink alcohol was removed from me by way of a 'spiritual or psychic'; experience, courtesy of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous', 'a recording of one of 'Charlie & Joe's: Big Book Study Meetings' and ' the God of my understanding.'
The proof of which I'm alive today! Safe, sane and sober, when I should be dead.
So to be honest, allowing for the fact that I believe sobriety is an individual responsibility, the achievement of which may be helped by others sharing their experience, strength and hope. I don't really care, it's a 'selfish program,' right!
But I do think, given failure to recover from addiction to alcohol or alcoholism, in terms of absolute abstinence from alcohol, at the very least runs the risk of proving fatal.
Places a high level of responsibility on those who offer programs of recovery, usually offering an untried, untested solution often based on nothing more than their own philosophy of knowing all the answers but none of the questions.
Who seemingly ignore the fact that in doing so, they may ultimately be responsible for the deaths of others..,..
Now that's a sobering thought, don't you think?
To be honest, I my desire to drink alcohol was removed from me by way of a 'spiritual or psychic'; experience, courtesy of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous', 'a recording of one of 'Charlie & Joe's: Big Book Study Meetings' and ' the God of my understanding.'
The proof of which I'm alive today! Safe, sane and sober, when I should be dead.
So to be honest, allowing for the fact that I believe sobriety is an individual responsibility, the achievement of which may be helped by others sharing their experience, strength and hope. I don't really care, it's a 'selfish program,' right!
But I do think, given failure to recover from addiction to alcohol or alcoholism, in terms of absolute abstinence from alcohol, at the very least runs the risk of proving fatal.
Places a high level of responsibility on those who offer programs of recovery, usually offering an untried, untested solution often based on nothing more than their own philosophy of knowing all the answers but none of the questions.
Who seemingly ignore the fact that in doing so, they may ultimately be responsible for the deaths of others..,..
Now that's a sobering thought, don't you think?
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