Do No Harm -- brags (examples) sought
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vashon WA
Posts: 1,035
Riffing on what Beccybean said, I've been working on the concept of "strategic thinking". Being right, and demonstrating it, isn't always strategic towards the end goal. Most of the time, for me, keeping my big mouth shut and my ears open is very strategic. It certainly isn't easy. Not being drunk helps!
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Hi courage.
I am also someone who likes to say what I think, and while I don't think I suck at diplomacy, I'm willing to compromise only so much in communicating my thoughts. (Feelings is a bit different issue for me...) There is both personal and communal value in being direct and straight talking vs holding back our opinions (which can provide useful information to others if expressed/perceived in the right way) or behaving like a chameleon who just reflects the environment.
My view is that it's often more about the way it's being presented, the style, rather than the actual content of what we want to express. Constructive criticism is a form of art imo, and none of us are always good at it... some people are more natural than others, but we can always learn. For example, I find parts of my job where I need to review others' work very good opportunities to exercise this. I am sure you know what I mean.
I think what Dee and Scott said above are key methods to achieve what I was alluding to about finding good ways of expression without having to compromise the message too much. Oh, and sustained sobriety
I definitely had lots of problems with saying things on a whim in early sobriety, and while I was typically aware of this or became aware quickly after it happened, it simply just took time and repeated experiences to shred this feature more. The good thing is that now we at least have some conscience and healthier self-criticism to address it
I am also someone who likes to say what I think, and while I don't think I suck at diplomacy, I'm willing to compromise only so much in communicating my thoughts. (Feelings is a bit different issue for me...) There is both personal and communal value in being direct and straight talking vs holding back our opinions (which can provide useful information to others if expressed/perceived in the right way) or behaving like a chameleon who just reflects the environment.
My view is that it's often more about the way it's being presented, the style, rather than the actual content of what we want to express. Constructive criticism is a form of art imo, and none of us are always good at it... some people are more natural than others, but we can always learn. For example, I find parts of my job where I need to review others' work very good opportunities to exercise this. I am sure you know what I mean.
I think what Dee and Scott said above are key methods to achieve what I was alluding to about finding good ways of expression without having to compromise the message too much. Oh, and sustained sobriety
I definitely had lots of problems with saying things on a whim in early sobriety, and while I was typically aware of this or became aware quickly after it happened, it simply just took time and repeated experiences to shred this feature more. The good thing is that now we at least have some conscience and healthier self-criticism to address it Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Oh, you were looking for examples... Here is one, perhaps interesting from more than one points of view. There is a guy I need to work with closely these days, a very smart guy who's excellent regarding his field of expertise, very well-informed, etc. I really appreciate these things because the area we work on is definitely new to me technology-wise, and also theoretically to some extent. I want to learn from him and am more than willing. But... to put it simply: he is also a jerk in some ways. Wants to show off all the time, provokes people unnecessarily in real tricky ways where there is clearly no more purpose for him except to direct the perceived attention and positive outcome to himself... And of course with this goal in mind, he tends to be after the more vulnerable, less confident colleagues (some of whom are just as excellent in their fields as himself, or even better because they also have good social skills). He likes to play the role of the "teacher" and instruct everyone about what they do wrong. And yes he is a good teacher as far as technical stuff goes, but not so much when it comes to collaborating and involving others. I think that many of his reactions reflect an inner insecurity and lack of confidence, but it's being transmitted as the opposite (at least seemingly). There are at least two junior people working for him that seem very scared of him as an authority.
Anyhow, so he tried it with me as well. I'm kinda used to this attitude because it's quite common in my profession. I also know it a bit from the inside, because sometimes I behave in similar ways when I am feeling insecure... especially when younger. Definitely a defense. And because of all this, I kinda feel an urge to be straight with him and tell him what I think about his behavior.... but I keep myself from doing it because I think it would be too much driven by my own mental projections. So what I do: keep everything very factual, to the point, but as impersonal as possible. A few times I stepped in and did the same when I saw him "terrorize" those other colleagues -- like shifting the discussion back to the actual topic and leaving out all heat (despite feeling a lot of that heat inside). I also try not to respond to his attempts at targeting personal things in me, and definitely unresponsive to his provoking undeserved recognition. Keep the focus strictly on "objective" topic is how it works. Of course it's never truly objective, but in this case, and also in my many other similar experiences at work, it makes a civil, sometimes outstandingly productive collaboration possible. Of course this strategy is not a good one in personal relationships, although... see below.
I think in part my experience dealing with similar interpersonal interactions come from some aspects of my relationship with my father, going back far into my childhood, when I sometimes reacted with intense frustration internally at least to some behaviors of his, in spite of our generally having a great and close relationship. Kinda learned to overlook those features of his and not respond to them, and then he also learned not to provoke me that way too much. I see a lot of the same in my work relationships. We focus on what's good in the relationship. I'm not saying it's the best approach, it definitely has conflict-avoidant features instead of working through the conflicts properly, but it's a compromise.
Anyhow, so he tried it with me as well. I'm kinda used to this attitude because it's quite common in my profession. I also know it a bit from the inside, because sometimes I behave in similar ways when I am feeling insecure... especially when younger. Definitely a defense. And because of all this, I kinda feel an urge to be straight with him and tell him what I think about his behavior.... but I keep myself from doing it because I think it would be too much driven by my own mental projections. So what I do: keep everything very factual, to the point, but as impersonal as possible. A few times I stepped in and did the same when I saw him "terrorize" those other colleagues -- like shifting the discussion back to the actual topic and leaving out all heat (despite feeling a lot of that heat inside). I also try not to respond to his attempts at targeting personal things in me, and definitely unresponsive to his provoking undeserved recognition. Keep the focus strictly on "objective" topic is how it works. Of course it's never truly objective, but in this case, and also in my many other similar experiences at work, it makes a civil, sometimes outstandingly productive collaboration possible. Of course this strategy is not a good one in personal relationships, although... see below.
I think in part my experience dealing with similar interpersonal interactions come from some aspects of my relationship with my father, going back far into my childhood, when I sometimes reacted with intense frustration internally at least to some behaviors of his, in spite of our generally having a great and close relationship. Kinda learned to overlook those features of his and not respond to them, and then he also learned not to provoke me that way too much. I see a lot of the same in my work relationships. We focus on what's good in the relationship. I'm not saying it's the best approach, it definitely has conflict-avoidant features instead of working through the conflicts properly, but it's a compromise.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
i have done, many times, what you did with your "explanation" to your son about why you were going to attend.
i continue to do it.
while i'm doing it, i catch it and then sometimes can make it "better" by acknowledging and apologizing. but usually that doesn't work because it's not like i said something i didn't mean, though often i didn't mean it entirely the way it came across.
in your example, i might then try to ameliorate by saying: oops, that didn't come out right; what i mean is that attending your wedding is important to me because it's important to you.
which is maybe exactly the same and maybe not.
(doing something because we care about the person who cares about the thing we're going to do is better than okay, yes?)
an example: i made amends to an ex about ten days ago. she asked if she could "share" a bit. yes, of course! one of the things she shared was that one thing she knows she always does is know and own and take responsibility for her part.
i didn't burst out laughing. i didn't scream. i didn't shake my head in wonder at the power of denial. i didn't drop my jaw. i didn't even flinch.
i was entirely cognizant of why i was there and stuck to my intention. the bigger picture.
i just listened.
i continue to do it.
while i'm doing it, i catch it and then sometimes can make it "better" by acknowledging and apologizing. but usually that doesn't work because it's not like i said something i didn't mean, though often i didn't mean it entirely the way it came across.
in your example, i might then try to ameliorate by saying: oops, that didn't come out right; what i mean is that attending your wedding is important to me because it's important to you.
which is maybe exactly the same and maybe not.
(doing something because we care about the person who cares about the thing we're going to do is better than okay, yes?)
an example: i made amends to an ex about ten days ago. she asked if she could "share" a bit. yes, of course! one of the things she shared was that one thing she knows she always does is know and own and take responsibility for her part.
i didn't burst out laughing. i didn't scream. i didn't shake my head in wonder at the power of denial. i didn't drop my jaw. i didn't even flinch.
i was entirely cognizant of why i was there and stuck to my intention. the bigger picture.
i just listened.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 2,937
Originally Posted by Jeni26 
I'm almost the opposite. I think carefully before I say or write anything that's the least bit controversial. In some ways, that's a bad thing because I end up with a million seething resentments.
I rarely feel anger though. Oh...except towards my sister in law...I have fleeting visions of bopping her over the head next time she opens her selfish money-grabbing insensitive loud mouth
Oops... 😇
I rarely feel anger though. Oh...except towards my sister in law...I have fleeting visions of bopping her over the head next time she opens her selfish money-grabbing insensitive loud mouth
Oops... 😇
I am on the verge of tears.
I could scream and scream.
I find I bite my tongue and try put my point across yet no- one seems to get it.
I feel like do I have to be so direct that it is verging on rude?
Maybe I do?
Mine is family too.
Not friends, family.
I've tried disconnecting and not speaking to them.
I 've tried explaining.
I just come across as a moody teenager, not a 41 year old woman!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,860
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but here goes ...
This happened pre-sobriety but has stuck with me quite a while. In my former workplace, someone spoke at a meeting about how we treat one another. She said something like this: Consider the old adage "Treat others the way you would have them treat you" and reshape it as "Treat others the way they would want you treat them -- with respect." I thought that made a lot of sense and I've tried hard to bring that to my encounters with others. (That, and remembering it's not all about me. Often, it's about others.)
Ironically, in the same workplace, there was a person with a sign on her door that read something like "I'm on my last nerve and you're getting on it." It was as though she had pre-absolved herself of any accountability for her actions/words and that everyone was put on notice that they better walk on eggshells in her presence. Or else. Interactions with her were reliably difficult and colleagues avoided her like the plague. Since then there have been some changes and that person's manager was out. When a new manager was hired, that person was out, too. The last anyone heard, she was having a hard time finding a new job. She may have pre-absolved herself from any expectations about her own behavior, but others didn't "post-absolve" her. Memories can be long; the word can get out.
I've thought about that some during the last few days. Before speaking or acting, ask whether we're treating others the way they'd want to be treated. It can take us a long way.
This happened pre-sobriety but has stuck with me quite a while. In my former workplace, someone spoke at a meeting about how we treat one another. She said something like this: Consider the old adage "Treat others the way you would have them treat you" and reshape it as "Treat others the way they would want you treat them -- with respect." I thought that made a lot of sense and I've tried hard to bring that to my encounters with others. (That, and remembering it's not all about me. Often, it's about others.)
Ironically, in the same workplace, there was a person with a sign on her door that read something like "I'm on my last nerve and you're getting on it." It was as though she had pre-absolved herself of any accountability for her actions/words and that everyone was put on notice that they better walk on eggshells in her presence. Or else. Interactions with her were reliably difficult and colleagues avoided her like the plague. Since then there have been some changes and that person's manager was out. When a new manager was hired, that person was out, too. The last anyone heard, she was having a hard time finding a new job. She may have pre-absolved herself from any expectations about her own behavior, but others didn't "post-absolve" her. Memories can be long; the word can get out.
I've thought about that some during the last few days. Before speaking or acting, ask whether we're treating others the way they'd want to be treated. It can take us a long way.
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,787
I like to let people into traffic if they're waiting at a cross street. Especially if there's a lot of cars. I like to let them in so they don't have to sit there and wait for a break in the traffic.
Especially if there's a lot of cars. I like to let them in so they don't have to sit there and wait for a break in the traffic. 
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 162
Today, one of my work partners asked me to cc him on an email I was going to send to one of our employees about a mistake the employee made. My partner said he wanted to jump in on the email and "reprimand" the employee (really he meant so that he could ridicule/abuse the employee because he has absolutely no restraint when it comes to stuff like that- I know the man very well).
I felt that the mistake the employee made didn't really amount to much at all and left him off the email... Oops... My "mistake"...
I felt that the mistake the employee made didn't really amount to much at all and left him off the email... Oops... My "mistake"...
p***enger
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,047
I love these examples of small & big acts of ...I think the word that fits best is grace. Graciousness.
Giving someone else a break just plain feels good.
I've been really angry at a colleague for days because she's been non-responsive to emails & calls & a project that I trusted we would work on together is about to fall apart. Tonight I finally got hold of her. She's really upset because of something to do w/her son. I let her vent, tried to talk her down a bit, & then asked her to please let me know early tomorrow if she'll be able to support the work, so that I can plan accordingly & let other partners know where we stand. We remain on good terms of mutual respect that includes but goes beyond our shared work.
This has been a week with a lot of big & small decisions that mix reason & emotion -- the worst kind LOL. But to the best of my knowledge, I've acquired no new enemies. That's on my list of things to take comfort in when there's not much else -- no new enemies.
Yes, it really is -- I have a list & that one's on it.
Keep your stories coming, please!
Giving someone else a break just plain feels good.
I've been really angry at a colleague for days because she's been non-responsive to emails & calls & a project that I trusted we would work on together is about to fall apart. Tonight I finally got hold of her. She's really upset because of something to do w/her son. I let her vent, tried to talk her down a bit, & then asked her to please let me know early tomorrow if she'll be able to support the work, so that I can plan accordingly & let other partners know where we stand. We remain on good terms of mutual respect that includes but goes beyond our shared work.
This has been a week with a lot of big & small decisions that mix reason & emotion -- the worst kind LOL. But to the best of my knowledge, I've acquired no new enemies. That's on my list of things to take comfort in when there's not much else -- no new enemies.
Yes, it really is -- I have a list & that one's on it.
Keep your stories coming, please!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: California
Posts: 2,693
My dog had a cancer scare and I was overtaken with grief. I didn't drink. He was given six months to live a few days later and I didn't drink. A few weeks later the biopsy showed that it was a misdiagnosis. I didn't drink.
Believe it or not it was much harder to not drink when I received the good news rather than the death sentence.
Cunning, baffling, powerful, all of the above.
One of the weirdest experiences to learn that I guess I have more of an inclination to drink (my very dormant AV that is) during times of happiness than during times of sorrow. Weird. Just shows me the AV is dormant or in remission but always there, even if pretty minuscule after 11 months.
But inclination to drink? No thanks. I'm NEVER drinking again.
Believe it or not it was much harder to not drink when I received the good news rather than the death sentence.
Cunning, baffling, powerful, all of the above.
One of the weirdest experiences to learn that I guess I have more of an inclination to drink (my very dormant AV that is) during times of happiness than during times of sorrow. Weird. Just shows me the AV is dormant or in remission but always there, even if pretty minuscule after 11 months.
But inclination to drink? No thanks. I'm NEVER drinking again.
p***enger
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,047
Way to go, Melinda! Yes, I've felt that inclination to drink when I feel good. That feeling, hey, I'm strong & healthy now, everything's right with me & the world, my side of the street is squeaky clean ... I can do whatever I want.
Carelessness, thoughtlessness of consequences & of others -- hallmarks of alcoholism? The absorption in self.
Doing no harm can sometimes by achieved by restraining the compulsion to insert self into anything & everything.
Carelessness, thoughtlessness of consequences & of others -- hallmarks of alcoholism? The absorption in self.
Doing no harm can sometimes by achieved by restraining the compulsion to insert self into anything & everything.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 30,196
I often literally bite my tongue when I'm tempted to snap at either my husband or my dad.
I said two things in the past (the brutal truth) that I dearly wish I could unsay--but it's too late. The very real damage is done, and it can't be undone.
"Loose lips sink ships." So now I keep my mouth shut.
I said two things in the past (the brutal truth) that I dearly wish I could unsay--but it's too late. The very real damage is done, and it can't be undone.
"Loose lips sink ships." So now I keep my mouth shut.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vashon WA
Posts: 1,035
I have learned, both the hard way and the easy way, that most people in my life have good intentions and are trying to do the right thing. The worst thing to do to someone like that is to assume that they have bad intentions and/or are trying to do a bad thing. I know that is the case for me personally. Things go wrong, people get distracted, sh#t happens, toes get stepped on but we're just trying to muddle through as best we can and treating each other with respect and dignity and even a little love goes a long, long way.
That said,
Some people are bad, doing bad things and need to be identified and avoided. Leave the vengeance to someone else if at all possible.
Learning how to communicate correction without being confrontational is a divine art.
I not only stop for pedestrians in traffic, I smile and wave at strangers. It feels great.
I'm not going to drink again but I think that drinking when you feel good has got to be better than drinking when you feel bad. Perhaps the same is true with the impulse?
That said,
Some people are bad, doing bad things and need to be identified and avoided. Leave the vengeance to someone else if at all possible.
Learning how to communicate correction without being confrontational is a divine art.
I not only stop for pedestrians in traffic, I smile and wave at strangers. It feels great.
I'm not going to drink again but I think that drinking when you feel good has got to be better than drinking when you feel bad. Perhaps the same is true with the impulse?
p***enger
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,047
Originally Posted by gaffo
Perhaps the same is true with the impulse?
I've worked with disturbed adolescents, some rather dangerous. In evaluating their behavior, I always tried not to be purely punitive -- I tried to leave an open door. I'd say to my colleagues, down the road, this person is going to find some serious trouble. It doesn't have to come from me.
There's another one: judge not.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
