jsprplc2006

A question for everyone here.

Those who attend AA often do so for many years after they've reached sobriety. They say that they still have the "disease of alcoholism" even after they've stopped drinking.

However, other people have been serious problem drinkers, stopped, and gotten on with their lives, without claiming they have a disease, or attending meetings 20 years after they got sober.

I've never done heroin. If I did, I'd probably get addicted. But I don't claim to have "heroinism" at the moment.

The substance is the problem, not the person. This is what prevents me from going to any AA meetings, as much as I'd like a human support network. Real science/medicine is always open to improvements, keeping what works and throwing out what doesn't. Yet AA holds on to the same principles that two dudes who got sober many years ago came up with, never questioning their validity. Thoughts?

Aellyce

Hi,

I think people who want to achieve long-term recovery realize and learn from experience what works for them and what they need to maintain their sobriety. Some people get sober on their own and stay that way, others need help and support initially but then not so much, and again others benefit from a community and program in the long run. There is no one size fits all when it comes to recovery, I think.

You don't need to go to AA if you don't like it and don't think it would help. But if other methods are not enough, I would never rule it out even if I resisted it initially.

My personal opinion is that in addiction, the problem is in the person and not the substance. Substances don't slide into our bodies on their own volition, they are just chemicals that interact with our physiology, but we need to consume them for that to happen. So if we want to quit and stay clean/sober, the idea is to primarily work on our own behavior and lifestyle to help avoid taking the substances. One thing in 12-step programs and also here on SR in the long run is service work and helping others. Many find it very beneficial for maintaining their own recovery and this is why they continue with it. Or they just like the community.

Do what works for you and what you need as an individual!

NYCDoglvr

Good topic. We don't "reach sobriety". We're either sober or we aren't. I'm sober today because I haven't had a drink today, but that doesn't mean I won't drink tomorrow, next week, next year. I'm sober 23 years thanks to AA. This isn't a rational disease, addiction/alcoholism are mental illnesses. I still have denial and rationalization sitting on my shoulder. I know I have another drink in me (I've known people with more time than me who have picked up a drink). Thing is, I don't think I've got another recovery in me. But this is just my experience, not everyone's. I came to AA because I couldn't stop drinking alone. I needed the fellowship and support of other alcoholics. Now I stay sober by helping others and doing service. AA is only one program, it worked for me but I don't expect it to work for everyone. It's for people who WANT it, not for people who need it.

If you really want to be sober I suggest checking out rehab, AA, therapy (cognitive therapy is great for those in recovery), exploring all the options. Some people can simply stop drinking but I wasn't one of them. Recovery isn't a one size fits all proposition. It's finding what works for YOU and then doing the hard work.

Regarding AA, try to keep it simple. "The only require ment for membership is a desire to stop drinking". That's it. We don't drink one day at a time, which means it's only today I don't drink. I'm an agnostic who still does the steps.

2muchpain

IMHO, I think the person is the problem, not the substance. Alcohol, etc., is just a way people use to deal with their personal issues. I think that's why so many people go back to drinking, not addressing the issues their dealing with, and find other ways to cope with them.
I'm also the kind of person that questions everything, not to prove or disprove something, but just to understand "why". I also believe in real science/medicine, but I also believe there is something else beyond would science.
I question AA like I do many things, but I do go to meetings. I question the need or some approaches to various types of therapy, but I just finished a 10 week Intensive Outpatient Program.
I don't see any problem to questioning things, but while I'm doing that, I do what I need to do to remain sober. Otherwise, I can see myself questioning myself to an early grave.
One thing I don't question is my alcoholism and the need to be actually doing things to increase my chances of not drinking again while I keep asking why this and why that.
At the end of the day, those "why's" and the new scientific breakthroughs won't keep me out of a liquor store.
Just my opinion. John

Anna

I believe the person (me) was the problem and alcohol was the symptom. Alcohol was what I choose to turn to in order to help me deal with life, family, physical issues, etc. So, I had to stop the alcohol and I had to work on myself. I do not use AA, but I continue on my recovery journey.

NYCDoglvr

In AA's Big Book, Bill Wilson writes that "drinking is but a symptom" of a much larger disease. The "ism". Hey, it's not a disease of the elbow.

awuh1

I think you might be equating addiction with alcoholism. I am an alcoholic, but I am not currently addicted to alcohol. However, if I have one drink, all bets are off. The substance is NOT the problem. I have a biological problem that does not allow me to process alcohol like other people.

The second part of problem is that I may wish to have a drink, even though I am not currently addicted to alcohol. That's why I need a I defense against the first drink. Different people have different ways of accomplishing this. Part of my defense is to help others who are like me and who are just beginning to come to grips with the nature of their problem.

I do that both in AA and here at SR. The fact that I do so is not somehow a shortcoming or a burden, but rather a pleasure. It's a celebration of the freedom from both the alcohol and the "ism"

Hawks

The substance is far from the problem... It is only a small part.

You cannot be physically addicted to alcohol beyond around 72 hours... Scientific research tells us.

What drives people back to alcohol after 72 hours off it?

Alcohol can't, it sits in a bottle. It can't climb out of the bottle and down an alcoholics throat can it?

They no longer have an alcohol problem on a physical level.

After that, they have a "continuous sober living" problem.

The problem centres in our minds.

Hence AA is about learning to live sober and learning how to ensure your mind, never returns to its old thinking.

Science has names for the type of treatment AA provides.

CBT or Moral Psychology.

Best part is..... It's free.

Dee74

I have not drunk alcohol in nearly 8 years, but I know that if I do again everything I've worked for since 2007 will be lost.

Some people like to consider themselves a former alcoholic (I read a post here earlier today)

Me, I'm not a former anything - it keeps me vigilant to think of myself as 'in remission'.

D

Mountainmanbob

It's easy to talk ourselves out of most anything. AA is by no means a perfect Program but then again neither are the ones attending.

Once an admitted alcoholic it seems that the good old drinking days are gone forever. Every return to alcohol is always followed by a still worse relapse.

MM

pulltight

I'm approaching my urge to drink as somewhat a obsessive compulsion, because I'm a bit OCD about things.
I have no problem admitting that I have/had a problem or am a alcoholic, binge, heavy drinker or whatever but I came to the realization that drinking isn't something that I should be doing.

Point is that I don't get hung up on labels or diseases, I just don't drink anymore.
Just like I don't drink antifreeze, gasoline or eat rat poisoning or whole birthday cakes.
It's working so far.

mfanch

I am SO GLAD that the problem is ME. I can DO something about that.

After rewiring my brain, alcohol/drugs ceased to matter. I became indifferent to them.

Many people just quit and go on their merry way. Maybe that's you. I did that before and could only get 3-5 years under my belt before I inevitably went back to drinking.

Shoot, if the problem were alcohol, I would just move to where there isn't any.

SR is great in that we all can find our own paths.

2muchpain

Hawks,

So AA provides CBT or Moral Psychology. Really? I've been to a lot of meetings, and never saw any CBT going on, and just what is Moral Psychology? I have two degrees in Psychology and never heard of it. I also don't think Science and AA have a whole lot in common, except maybe in a broad sense. I don't think there is a whole lot of hard science going on in AA, but I could be wrong. John

Hawks

2muchpain... You'll need to go a little further into the history of psychology to find moral psychology.

Carl Jung was a practitioner. I'll assume you know who he is.

CBT is essentially looking at the behaviours we undertake and then assessment made of which are useful and which are not.

I underwent CBT to deal with grief around the death of my Father.

I wrote down during and at the end of each day, what i had done and how I felt about the behaviours and activities and actions I had taken.

Every week, I sat down with my psychologist and we reviewed the journal.

What worked, what didn't and after that, I was to proceed into the next week attempting to eliminate the not so good and attempt to cultivate the good.

Would that be CBT as you understand it?

mpr

Some people need to have the frame of mind that they are still an alcoholic to keep themselves in check. If they forget about it they end up drinking again. Others can get over the initial hurdle and just be done with it. At the end of the day it is just whatever works for you, run with it.

2muchpain

Hawks,
I was in involved in both CBT and DBT. As you know, CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It's a very detailed form of therapy that centers on the premise that if you change your way of thinking (cognitive), you will change the way you perceive everyday situations and change your behaviors accordingly. Maybe there were people that were there like you, to deal with a specific issue, but most were there to change their way of perceiving life's daily situations. The therapist saw it as changing the tape in your head, and replacing it with a more positive and realistic tape, which of course, will change how you react to daily situations. By changing your behaviors, people will respond to you in a more positive was. At least this was my take on it. John

2muchpain

Hawks,

Also, very sorry about the lose of your Father.

Now that I'm thinking about it, when I was seeing a CBT specialist, I was to write down events and my reactions to them, and then discuss then at the next session as you described (called keeping a diary), so I think we are talking about the same thing, but I to still disagree with you that CBT as a theraputic process has any similarities to AA, other than both need a change in thinking and behaving but I don't think you can replace CBT with AA, but they do complement each other. John

Ken33xx

Yes, that works for me.

fini

if the substance were the problem, then everyone who drinks would be/become an alcoholic, or a heavy drinker or a problem drinker or...
if the substance were the problem, there would be no long-term casual 'normal' drinkers of a glass of wine here and there.

if the substance were the problem, it would be analogous to the hot stove element: touch it once, get burned, and lo and behold we avoid touching it again.

quite clearly the 'problem' is in how the person reacts to/interacts with the substance, and not the substance itself.

Ken33xx

Well said.



For me it's a realization that drinking won't make anything better and whatever is bothering me is usually a quality problem compared with where I was when I joined AA.

If I were to start drinking again I can't say when problems associated with booze would return but they would at some point.


One of the first things I noticed after getting sober was the number of people who drink and don't abuse alcohol.


And there it is!