12 step founded during Seance???WTH...really?
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12 step founded during Seance???WTH...really?
First of all let me say that I was really debating rather to post this,Sorry to bring this up, but this blew me away yesterday. I'm kinda of sensitive to witchcraft, seances, and the sort so to find out about this leaves me feeling a little edgy...because I have lost some family to the sort,Bothers me...
Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill Wilson had a bit of a thing for the spooky things in life. He even had a room in his house dedicated to the paranormal and mystical which he called the “spook room.” He once claimed that this room, and the contact he made with spirits there, helped him to get over his alcoholism. One of the spirits he claimed to have chatted with was a 15th-century monk named Boniface. Wilson claimed in his autobiography that Boniface and the other spirits he contacted via the Ouija Board were responsibly for his creating of Alcoholics Anonymous’s world-famous Twelve Steps.
He claimed to have written the "12 & 12" by channelling the spirit of a dead monk named "Boniface".
"An account published in the official A.A. history book, PASS IT ON, tells of a pre-breakfast conversation that Bill said he had with three ghosts during a visit to Nantucket in 1944, ghosts whom Bill Wilson said were the spirits of "three distinct long-dead Nantucket citizens".
Mostly it was Boniface:
"All that Bill Wilson had to do was go to either the public library in New York City or the library at Columbia University, and find an old manuscript or book of the sermons of Boniface, and memorize a few paragraphs from it (in Latin), and then recite them during a séance. He recited them letter by letter, so he didn't even have to get the pronunciation correct.
"And how was the message verified as coming from Boniface? By a scholar or minister looking it up and finding it in an old book about Boniface."
"Bill enthusiastically wrote to his Catholic Priest friend, Father Ed Dowling, telling about the help and guidance he was receiving from spirits of the dead while writing his second book, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (July 17, 1952)......Father Dowling's response was far less enthusiastic. He felt that Bill was messing with lying evil spirits from the dark side:
"Boniface sounds like the Apostle of Germany. I still feel, like Macbeth, that these folks tell us truth in small matters in order to fool us in larger. I suppose that is my lazy orthodoxy."
Letter from Fr. Ed Dowling to Bill Wilson, July 24, 1952,
The Soul of Sponsorship: The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters, edited by Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., page 59."
"The Chappaqua group, which met in the small, wealthy town of Chappaqua near Bedford Hills and had become the self-appointed guardian of local A.A. powers, was joined by another recovering alcoholic named Summer Campbell and a few of the men who worked with Bill. Another one of the men, Tony Guggenheim, wrote to a man they all respected -- C.S. Lewis at Cambridge, England -- to describe Bill and Lois's activities and to ask what he, Lewis, thought of them. Tom P. remembers that Lewis wrote back with total disapproval. "This is necromancy," he wrote. "Have nothing to do with it." Apparently, Bill's colleagues thought that an indictment from a man like Lewis would influence Bill to change his private beliefs. Apparently, they didn't know him very well.
By this time Bill and Lois were drawing away from the many rules and regulations that the membership of Alcoholics Anonymous would have liked to impose on their lives. So despite the controversy, they continued to communicate with spirits. In the evening, with a few friends, they would watch the light fade through the big oak and maple trees and arrange themselves around a table in the room at the back of the house, or in the wooden and upholstered chairs in the double-height living room in front of the big fireplace. Sometimes they would be joined by believing neighbors, sometimes by A.A. visitors from out of town, sometimes by one or two people from the office or one of the local A.A. groups. Their séances were never a secret."
"One of these bedrooms soon became the Spook Room. Bill had a strong interest in the paranormal. In this room they held séances and practiced with a ouija board. Sometimes Bill himself would lie on the couch in the living room, and act as a medium receiving messages, which Anne B., a neighbor and part of the spook circle would write on a pad."
Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill Wilson had a bit of a thing for the spooky things in life. He even had a room in his house dedicated to the paranormal and mystical which he called the “spook room.” He once claimed that this room, and the contact he made with spirits there, helped him to get over his alcoholism. One of the spirits he claimed to have chatted with was a 15th-century monk named Boniface. Wilson claimed in his autobiography that Boniface and the other spirits he contacted via the Ouija Board were responsibly for his creating of Alcoholics Anonymous’s world-famous Twelve Steps.
He claimed to have written the "12 & 12" by channelling the spirit of a dead monk named "Boniface".
"An account published in the official A.A. history book, PASS IT ON, tells of a pre-breakfast conversation that Bill said he had with three ghosts during a visit to Nantucket in 1944, ghosts whom Bill Wilson said were the spirits of "three distinct long-dead Nantucket citizens".
Mostly it was Boniface:
"All that Bill Wilson had to do was go to either the public library in New York City or the library at Columbia University, and find an old manuscript or book of the sermons of Boniface, and memorize a few paragraphs from it (in Latin), and then recite them during a séance. He recited them letter by letter, so he didn't even have to get the pronunciation correct.
"And how was the message verified as coming from Boniface? By a scholar or minister looking it up and finding it in an old book about Boniface."
"Bill enthusiastically wrote to his Catholic Priest friend, Father Ed Dowling, telling about the help and guidance he was receiving from spirits of the dead while writing his second book, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (July 17, 1952)......Father Dowling's response was far less enthusiastic. He felt that Bill was messing with lying evil spirits from the dark side:
"Boniface sounds like the Apostle of Germany. I still feel, like Macbeth, that these folks tell us truth in small matters in order to fool us in larger. I suppose that is my lazy orthodoxy."
Letter from Fr. Ed Dowling to Bill Wilson, July 24, 1952,
The Soul of Sponsorship: The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters, edited by Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., page 59."
"The Chappaqua group, which met in the small, wealthy town of Chappaqua near Bedford Hills and had become the self-appointed guardian of local A.A. powers, was joined by another recovering alcoholic named Summer Campbell and a few of the men who worked with Bill. Another one of the men, Tony Guggenheim, wrote to a man they all respected -- C.S. Lewis at Cambridge, England -- to describe Bill and Lois's activities and to ask what he, Lewis, thought of them. Tom P. remembers that Lewis wrote back with total disapproval. "This is necromancy," he wrote. "Have nothing to do with it." Apparently, Bill's colleagues thought that an indictment from a man like Lewis would influence Bill to change his private beliefs. Apparently, they didn't know him very well.
By this time Bill and Lois were drawing away from the many rules and regulations that the membership of Alcoholics Anonymous would have liked to impose on their lives. So despite the controversy, they continued to communicate with spirits. In the evening, with a few friends, they would watch the light fade through the big oak and maple trees and arrange themselves around a table in the room at the back of the house, or in the wooden and upholstered chairs in the double-height living room in front of the big fireplace. Sometimes they would be joined by believing neighbors, sometimes by A.A. visitors from out of town, sometimes by one or two people from the office or one of the local A.A. groups. Their séances were never a secret."
"One of these bedrooms soon became the Spook Room. Bill had a strong interest in the paranormal. In this room they held séances and practiced with a ouija board. Sometimes Bill himself would lie on the couch in the living room, and act as a medium receiving messages, which Anne B., a neighbor and part of the spook circle would write on a pad."
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Have you checked and verified this information by reading the direct sources? There is a lot of distorted truth on the internet, if not outright lies. I suggest taking all these quotes with a very big grain of salt. BTW, I don't believe Bill Wilson ever wrote an autobiography, but there are biographies of his life.
Sobriety is Traditional
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It's so easy to pass judgment on the past. Was Bill Wilson a freak?
Think about the times in which he lived. We think we are so cool because the internet has come into existence in the last generation. But Bill Wilson's generation saw the proliferation of things which had a far greater impact on day-to-day affairs: indoor plumbing, electric lights, refrigeration, high-speed travel, surgery, antibiotics, and global communication, to name a few.
Alcoholism and addiction had to be considered in an entirely new context in this world of leisure. How or why Bill Wilson came up with his books has little impact on the fact that the books are important to recovery for millions.
Think about the times in which he lived. We think we are so cool because the internet has come into existence in the last generation. But Bill Wilson's generation saw the proliferation of things which had a far greater impact on day-to-day affairs: indoor plumbing, electric lights, refrigeration, high-speed travel, surgery, antibiotics, and global communication, to name a few.
Alcoholism and addiction had to be considered in an entirely new context in this world of leisure. How or why Bill Wilson came up with his books has little impact on the fact that the books are important to recovery for millions.
Sobriety is Traditional
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Originally Posted by FeenixxRising 
Have you checked and verified this information by reading the direct sources? There is a lot of distorted truth on the internet, if not outright lies. I suggest taking all these quotes with a very big grain of salt. BTW, I don't believe Bill Wilson ever wrote an autobiography, but there are biographies of his life.
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Originally Posted by Coldfusion
How or why Bill Wilson came up with his books has little impact on the fact that the books are important to recovery for millions.
Sobriety is Traditional
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Originally Posted by FeenixxRising
I believe some of the more fanatical Christian groups are spreading some of this information.
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Originally Posted by Coldfusion
In fact, I have read Pass It On (AAWS, 1984) and don't recall a ouija board, although I'll admit I skimmed over Bill Wilson's LSD-inspired rants.
If I recall correctly, the AA Central Office was autonomous by then, and did not approve of Bill's "experiments".
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Originally Posted by Coldfusion
For anyone who objects to AA literature, I recommend NA literature. It is written in such a neutral way that it should be acceptable to any sect or religion.
I believe that's the problem. The literature is too "neutral". Some of these groups (a very small minority IMO) want a very "Christian AA", not this neutral/spiritual stuff.
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Keep it simple. It works. Yes, there's a stigma against commune with ghosts and dead people, many believe it doesn't exist and others believe it is evil. I choose not to let social stigma dictate what I think. And I think AA works. The academic value of this topic aside, I don't believe any of this will help me get one more day sober. Just my $.02
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Just gonna place one of these here in case we need it later...
Smilingfaces - I've never heard that story before today - I have no idea about its veracity, but it's not the story I heard 
.
I do know that many of my friends lives here have been saved by AA.
I think maybe thats the more important point?
D
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.I do know that many of my friends lives here have been saved by AA.
I think maybe thats the more important point?
D
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I have utilized the program of AA successfully for 12 years now and have studied some of the history but have never run across what you posted. Can you cite sources? As has been stated already anyone can post anything on the internet but that does not make it the God's honest truth in fact blatant lies get posted quite frequently and passed off as truth. When I do research on the internet I always check the sources to do my best to vet the information that I am getting. Honestly I have trouble believing what you posted without having sources available for me to vet.
That said, AA has saved multitudes of people and continues to work. It is not the only successful program on the block but it does work for many people. If AA is not the program for you then I encourage you to find a program that works for you. I do not encourage anyone to disparage any program of recovery as you never know which one will work for whom and the person reading the post disparaging a program may be the person that program may work for but because of the post they are scared off from that program and never find sobriety. I choose not to take that much responsibility and just live and let live when it comes to programs of recovery even when I disagree with one's teachings.
That said, AA has saved multitudes of people and continues to work. It is not the only successful program on the block but it does work for many people. If AA is not the program for you then I encourage you to find a program that works for you. I do not encourage anyone to disparage any program of recovery as you never know which one will work for whom and the person reading the post disparaging a program may be the person that program may work for but because of the post they are scared off from that program and never find sobriety. I choose not to take that much responsibility and just live and let live when it comes to programs of recovery even when I disagree with one's teachings.
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I think it is important
It is obvious that the 12 steps are in fact very beneficial for alcoholics like my self and society as a whole, but I take issue with something here.
I'm not sure of the reliability of the source(listverse,some other sites I found while researching),thats why I posed the question here, to either validate or not validate it???
If this story is true.. I do take some issue, because doesn't it seem a bit of "a conflict of issue". The main issue for me is this:The God I understand says not to partake in seances,mediums, etc, so if I am to follow the steps which are derived from a seance, are(the steps) necessarily from God or something that is cunning and very tricky(almost like a fallen angel).This argument you can say doesnt exist, because I cannot argue that these steps are in fact all for the good, and do give glory to God, but yet it still makes one wonder right??? A little bit of my history: My moms side of the family was very much into mediums,seances, etc, while my dads was very much against it. When I was a young child my mother tried taking me to one of these meetings(seances), I didn't feel it was right (because of what my dad taught me from the bible) and stormed out.Fast forward 5 years (age 13), my cousins and I started messing with a self made oiuja board(which I have since regret)and needless to say some weird stuff started happening(I have always felt guilty for messing with that thing,and have prayed for forgiveness)I do wonder sometimes if I did endure troubles through my life because I did mess with it(I have heard this can happen). I have dealt with very odd/paranormal experiences, maybe its cause "im more sensitive to these" things ,whatever the case may be.Nevertheless I still plan to follow the steps and I my intention is not to discourage anyone from following the steps,they are good, I hope you guys/gals can see why I have some issues with the story(if true) because of my background. Anyways have a good day, and stay sober one day at a time.God Bless.
I'm not sure of the reliability of the source(listverse,some other sites I found while researching),thats why I posed the question here, to either validate or not validate it???
If this story is true.. I do take some issue, because doesn't it seem a bit of "a conflict of issue". The main issue for me is this:The God I understand says not to partake in seances,mediums, etc, so if I am to follow the steps which are derived from a seance, are(the steps) necessarily from God or something that is cunning and very tricky(almost like a fallen angel).This argument you can say doesnt exist, because I cannot argue that these steps are in fact all for the good, and do give glory to God, but yet it still makes one wonder right??? A little bit of my history: My moms side of the family was very much into mediums,seances, etc, while my dads was very much against it. When I was a young child my mother tried taking me to one of these meetings(seances), I didn't feel it was right (because of what my dad taught me from the bible) and stormed out.Fast forward 5 years (age 13), my cousins and I started messing with a self made oiuja board(which I have since regret)and needless to say some weird stuff started happening(I have always felt guilty for messing with that thing,and have prayed for forgiveness)I do wonder sometimes if I did endure troubles through my life because I did mess with it(I have heard this can happen). I have dealt with very odd/paranormal experiences, maybe its cause "im more sensitive to these" things ,whatever the case may be.Nevertheless I still plan to follow the steps and I my intention is not to discourage anyone from following the steps,they are good, I hope you guys/gals can see why I have some issues with the story(if true) because of my background. Anyways have a good day, and stay sober one day at a time.God Bless.
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Interesting stuff SmilingFaces. Some of it is news to me. Bill was a believer in “spiritualism” but I believe this interest developed long after AA was founded and the basic AA text was written. Bill wrote the 12 steps in less than an hour one night in December of 1938. Here is a link to what he wrote about how the 12 steps came to be. A Fragment of History, By Bill W.
Can you quote directly from Bill’s autobiography (that “Boniface and the other spirits he contacted via the Ouija Board were responsibly for his creating of Alcoholics Anonymous’s world-famous Twelve Steps”) so I can refer to it? Thanks
Can you quote directly from Bill’s autobiography (that “Boniface and the other spirits he contacted via the Ouija Board were responsibly for his creating of Alcoholics Anonymous’s world-famous Twelve Steps”) so I can refer to it? Thanks
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IF,
I was one of the early day prospects, I probably would have identified clearer with Dr Bob than Bill W.
By reading more AA books so to get a handle of how all this AA came about in my early sober days,
"Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" seems to balance out the ego of Bill W's character.
I read stuff about Bill's other "outer experiences" somewhere, but took it with a pinch of salt.
The reason, or one of the main reasons is, Dr Bob's wife always made references to Bible. I don't take this as religion, but more of a lean towards borrowing ideas within the world of wisdom. I don't care if it came from the Koran, if the idea from a snippet of spiritual text made up a whole to deal with the drinking problem and showed results, then it's better than what taking a drink has done.
On the question of witchcraft, seances and Bill W,...well... he drank a lot!
We are not cured and I don't think he had any evil malice or agenda.
In the 11th step it suggests to Pray AND Meditate....while in meditation our thoughts are many.
To filter the thoughts, the Oxford method was to use the Four Absolutes, in the BB it's the Four Standards.
The Four Absolutes - Their Source, Application, and Significance Honesty Purity Unselfishness and Love by Dick B.
From my understanding,these are teachings from the Sermon on the Mount.
Therefore for me, it washes over Bill W's experiments with the paranormal.
I was one of the early day prospects, I probably would have identified clearer with Dr Bob than Bill W.
By reading more AA books so to get a handle of how all this AA came about in my early sober days,
"Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" seems to balance out the ego of Bill W's character.
I read stuff about Bill's other "outer experiences" somewhere, but took it with a pinch of salt.
The reason, or one of the main reasons is, Dr Bob's wife always made references to Bible. I don't take this as religion, but more of a lean towards borrowing ideas within the world of wisdom. I don't care if it came from the Koran, if the idea from a snippet of spiritual text made up a whole to deal with the drinking problem and showed results, then it's better than what taking a drink has done.
On the question of witchcraft, seances and Bill W,...well... he drank a lot!
We are not cured and I don't think he had any evil malice or agenda.
In the 11th step it suggests to Pray AND Meditate....while in meditation our thoughts are many.
To filter the thoughts, the Oxford method was to use the Four Absolutes, in the BB it's the Four Standards.
The Four Absolutes - Their Source, Application, and Significance Honesty Purity Unselfishness and Love by Dick B.
From my understanding,these are teachings from the Sermon on the Mount.
Therefore for me, it washes over Bill W's experiments with the paranormal.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
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There is a great deal of room under the tent of AA for all conceptions of one's higher power and there are many who find theirs in the form of some rather unconventional interpretations. Spiritualism, even Wickens and Atheists all seem to find a fellowship when the goal is a better sober life.
SmilingFaces, I can attest that "your" God belongs to you and I hope that you can look at the 12 steps which are a product of the common sense approach to a self examined life and with reliance on the God of your understanding that you can have what so many of us have been blessed to find. One of the more difficult concepts for me to grasp was that this is a program that gives structure to recovery and sobriety and why it works may be less of an immediate concern than simply working at it.
The "spirits" that haunt me the most come in brown bottles labeled, Canadian Club and green ones labeled, Glen Livet.
I wish you sucess on your journey and hope you find the peace and satisfaction that I found almost 14 years ago. For me the steps could have come out of a Cracker Jack box, I was desperate for a better life.
Cheers,
Jon
SmilingFaces, I can attest that "your" God belongs to you and I hope that you can look at the 12 steps which are a product of the common sense approach to a self examined life and with reliance on the God of your understanding that you can have what so many of us have been blessed to find. One of the more difficult concepts for me to grasp was that this is a program that gives structure to recovery and sobriety and why it works may be less of an immediate concern than simply working at it.
The "spirits" that haunt me the most come in brown bottles labeled, Canadian Club and green ones labeled, Glen Livet.
I wish you sucess on your journey and hope you find the peace and satisfaction that I found almost 14 years ago. For me the steps could have come out of a Cracker Jack box, I was desperate for a better life.
Cheers,
Jon
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