Joe Nerv

I have a commtiment every other monday where I bring a meeting to rehab. People in this place are pretty awesome. They all always seem laid back, relaxed, and eager. Last time I was there someone shared something that urked me, and I feel a need to put my thoughts out there.

This particular guy was in his 60s, and didn't seem to have any issues (himself) with his drinking. It was affecting his health, and his family talked him into getting help. I had seen him 2 weeks earlier, and his attitude hadn't changed much. He said he was content with his life the way it was, but would have a go at quitting to make others happy. That's not what urked me. He said while in the rehab he really didn't have any urges to drink, but he said he realized that it might be because of the "crap" the doctors are making them take. It occurred to me when he said that, that everyone up there in the rehab must have been on that "crap". Guys are falling asleep, and every single one of them seems pretty sedate.

I was in a rehab 29 years ago. Had I been offered meds, I'd have taken them in a heartbeat. I wasn't. Nor was anyone else. Yet I'm 150% certain I was an equal or better candidate for them than anyone else I shared my ward with. I had extreme panic and agoraphobia, and was even given special priveleges to not participate in certain events because of my anxiety. I also landed myself in the rehab with a half assed suicide attampt, so my depression wasn't to be questioned. No meds, yet they handled me with kid gloves.

Many events took place while I was in the hospital for the month I was there. About 2 weeks in, my mother came to an alanon meeting (I was unaware of her presence) on the floor below us, and had a massive heart attack while there. I found out by going downstairs to check what all the commotion was about when nurses and staff started running around saying there was an emergency situation. A counselor came with me and my mom to the hospital where I had say goodbye when they wheeled her off, not knowing if I'd ever see her again. She's still alive.

While in the rehab, the girl who had pretty much been my caretaker for the year preceding my treatment called and told me she was sleeping with someone else.

And while those 2 incidents hit me incredibly hard, nothing hit me harder than the staff telling me I had to go see a Broadway show, in NYC, that they were traveling to by bus. No special priveleges this time of staying behind. I was forced to face my panic and agoraphobia, or leave the rehab. The story of the Man Who Mastered Fear in the BB describes my feelings on that, and only very few I think can understand the horrors of even considering the trip. A bus, nyc, and a theater... 3 virtual impossibilities for me, even if I were loaded up with valium and alcohol. Hadn't done any of the 3 in years. It was impossible, yet to me the only choice I had was to do as they said, or go home and follow through with killing myself.

In all of those instances, my back was firmly plastered against a wall. With nowhere else to turn, after talking with counselors and friends I had made there, journaling, and doing everything else I could, I was left with my only option of pleading with an undefinable god to be helped. I cried in all the above situations, and begged for help... and guess what? I got it. I didn't get instantly healed. But each of those instances brought me to a place where I knew I could start depending on a power greater than myself to face life and all it has to offer, without alcohol. And without any alcohol, medication, or numbing of my feelings. I wouldn't have had any of those experiences or coincidences that helped pull me through, had I been medicated. And I sincerely doubt that I'd have gotten over my fears and anxieties. I'd intstead know that medication could relieve them, and I'd use it. I had friends who's anxiety wasn't anywhere near as crippling as mine was, and they found their way into psychiatrists offices for treatment. They still deal with issues, and many drank again, because I don't believe they ever learned to really deal with them. They medicated them, because someone fed and thoroughly convinced them of the belief that they had "chemical imbalances" and were hopeless, if not medically treated. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones who convinced them of that, because they have incredibly good marketing skills and hire experts to sell their products and become billionaires. I was told later in sobriety that I had chemical imbalances that could only be fixed with medication, yet nobody ever tested any chemicals in my brain. And I find it interesting that my chemicals aren't feeling unbalanced today.

I always hear stories also of someone stopping their medication because someone convinced them, and then killing themselves. I've seen it happen myself. But that's never attributed to the fact that medication had already been messing with their heads and brain chemistry. Only attributed to the fact that they stopped taking it. I could write pages and pages of why I believe that happens... and support it with a lot of experience, but this post is already way too long. If someone is taking medication, I don't believe they should stop. Not without strict medical supervision. It could absolutely have deadly consequences. But if someone isn't, and a doctor is telling them they have a chemical imbalance and need treatment, I think they should think real hard whether they want to heal and grow, or medicate and either stop, or stall that process. There are people who need medication, but IMO 90% of the people who are currently on it, would be much much better off if they weren't. But they'll never know, and they'll never agree because well... they're feeling pretty good right now. There's a lot of irony in that. IMO.

I feel great today. I've been feeling great lately. And I believe that's only because I was forced into learning how to deal with the things that ailed me. I was forced into applying the 12 steps in my life, going to meetings, eating differently, and doing a lot of other things I'd have had no motivation to do had I been medicated. I'm grateful for the I've been led to. Having a pretty incredible journey. That's all.

Joe Nerv

The lack of response here somewhat concerns me. Are there any others here with similar thoughts, feelings?

bunnyfarm

Silup

banksy

thoughts

feelings

laurie6781

Sorry Joe, just came on now to read.

I heartily agree. I myself have been on medication, since I was into my 9th year sober, as I was diagnosed as Bi Polar.

I have had sponsees that have had to take medications and that is between them and their doctor just as mine are.

I consider myself sober all these years, sane, civilized, understanding, cooperative, etc and I would NOT be if I were to stop my meds.

Even the BB mentions that they do not know everything and additional help may be needed for the individual to find recovery and maintain their recovery.

I am also aware that there are rehabs that 'medicate' the clients while they are there and I have my reservations about that practice, but since I am not a Doctor, only a retired RN I will keep my opinions on that one to myself.

For at least 10 or 12 years now, when I have a sponsee that may need more 'intense' learning of the 'tools' I will work with them to get into the Salvation Army program. No medications there unless prescribed by the 'appropriate doctor' and for those that really WANT recovery the SA program of 6 to 9 months is really GREAT.

Good topic Joe, it will be interesting to see more responses!

Love and hugs,

bbthumper

I agree as well. I will not take the time to share all of my opinions on medications, but they are very similar to yours Joe.
I was diagnosed with social anxiety, generalized anxiety and depression before getting sober. I continued to take that medication for 3 months into sobriety at which time I decided Id ask to be tapered off. As a result of tapping into a power far greater than medication, I have been free of panic attacks and any significant depression since that time.
Are there people who need these med? Absolutely. Are there loads of people who don't need them but are on them anyways? Well, that's a matter of opinion, but I would say most definitely. Its sad that anti-depressant use has skyrocketed 400% in the last 20 years.

bbthumper

Great post BTW Joe

Joe Nerv

I guess I should mention that I also find it interesting how much people trust doctors. I am not a doctor, but I know myself much much better than any doctor ever did. I've been prescribed things by doctors that were absolutely absurd, and when I told them my thoughts was told/asked, "Who's the doctor here?" My brain chemistry was never tested, yet they came up with meds that would fix the imbalances they tried to convince me I had. I'm gonna guess the entire world has "imbalances". Would love to see these defined and accurately diagnosed in someone.

Had I listened to doctors in my life (MDs and psychiatrists) I'd be a complete physical and mental mess right now. I'm certain of that and could detail it elaborately. Because I haven't I'm in pretty incredible physical and psychological shape. I'm not happy every single day of my life, but I believe I grow through my pain.

Doctors have their place in our world and there are times they're absolutely needed, but they're not god. And they often cause a lot more harm than good because of the fact that they're trained to treat ailments, not heal them. I prefer to heal what ails me, and thus far I have a pretty good track record.

MemphisBlues

Read "Mad in America" and "An Anatomy of an Epidemic," both by Robert Whitaker, and you can find some disconcerting yet powerful arguments against the paradigm of psychiatric medication for many people.

Whitaker takes an investigative approach to the history of Psychiatry in Mad, and then a deeper analysis of the history of medication, including the biochemical theory of mental illness and the history of the first psychiatric meds through to the most modern meds.

Most striking to me was to learn that the entire biochemical imbalance concept of mental illness is just that -- a concept, a theory. More striking is his analysis of the clinical trials for drugs that all of modern pharma-psychiatry is based on. That was very revealing to learn that even the blockbuster antidepressants fare not much better than placebo and that the structure of the studies is specious in many regards.

For many, the biochemical concept would probably fall apart when it comes to schizophrenia. It's thought of as a chronic biochemical disease that requires life-long medication. Oddly enough, the best long-term prognosis for schizophrenics is for those never placed on anti-psychotics. The worst-case prognosis for schizophrenics is for those placed on anti-psychotics and then to have those drugs abruptly removed, which results in full-blown relapse. Under the terms of modern psychiatry, abrupt withdrawal of drugs followed by immediate relapse is seen as proof that the drugs cure the disease and are thereby needed for life. Same for depression. Abrupt withdrawal causes immediate relapse, therefore the drug is the cure and needed for life.

Lost in that premise is the fact that the drugs, indeed, are messing with brain chemistry -- which is provable scientifically -- and ceasing the drug perturbs brain function and is therefore proof that there is a biochemical cause and affect.

What I still can't wrap my brain around is why drug metabolites can me measured and therefore seen to mechanically alter brain function, but why there is no medically scientific way to measure normal brain chemistry and track it to prove its affect on mental health, yet the entire field of modern psychiatry is wrapped around the biochemical theory.

Then again, why should I understand it? I'm just the lab rat in this 35-year experiment for the six pounds of matter on top of my brain pan.

Threshold

This is how I see it. There are all sorts of resources out there that people can make use of in their lives. Everyone has their own "contract with the Universe" and can choose what they use in their lives.

It's up to the individual to arrange their own life. Some people are more motivated to do research, try this or that, etc. Some put their lives and choices into the hand of others, or give it over to drugs or booze, or meditation, or a religion, or join the military, or adopt 8 kids...whatever.

Are there rehabs and dr's and drug companies that push meds on people who might, through other means, find relief in their lives? Yup. But people have the option of trying something different in their lives too.

I was raised in a particular religion, and it was a pretty hard sell on me growing up, but ultimately I CHOSE something different for myself.

We could pretty much apply the "well isn't it a shame" game to any area of life.

Isn't it a shame that they didn't choose to attend college and instead are in a factory job.

Isn't it a shame that she doesn't lose weight, she has a pretty face.

Isn't it a shame that person is in AA when they could have used AVRT instead.

Isn't it a shame that that person tried herbs to cure cancer instead of chemo.

Isn't it a shame that I took Latin in high school instead of Spanish.

It's pretty much always a combination of a person's outside influences, personality, and hopes and fears.

I worked with a bunch of women once none of whom had diagnosed depression but who went to their dr's and demanded anti depression drugs because they wanted to feel better than they did.

Those women might have been able to achieve feeling better by any number of other means. They didn't, they chose to go to dr after dr after dr until they found one who would write the script they wanted.

I know other folks who addressed their depression by throwing their pills down the toilet and training for a marathon even though their dr's and families begged them to not go off meds.

And I have a great friend who is bipolar as they come, gets scary crazy manic and nearly paralyzed with depression and his meds are all that stands between him and total ruin for himself and his family. He only takes his meds because his wife begs him to and he respects her.

choices, choices, choices.

I have enough of a challenge managing my own life and choices. I don't dare play armchair quarterback with the choices of others, I only learned that because for a long time I thought I knew what was best for me and a lot of people around me and was proven incorrect.

I have had to start from scratch addressing my own depression, agoraphobia, addictions, anxiety etc in my life. Sometimes meds helped, sometimes they hurt, sometimes they did nothing at all. And in the end it was my own choice to keeping trying things, give up, or med myself into a stupor.

I've learned that mechanics, dr's, lawyers, etc don't always know best. I pay them for their professional opinion and services but they are not always accurate. I have to keep in mind that it is MY life and I need to be my own advocate, and sometimes I am going to make a wac choice as well, both on my behalf and that of others.

I've had drs that made bad calls and others that saved my life.

So far I have not been able to find that one magic key that makes life easy for me. Darn that.

Joe Nerv

There's something I rarely share but believe I've shared here before and will again.

Shortly after I celebrated a year sober I went camping with a bunch of AAs. I was still on shaky phobia grounds, and well... Started losing it to panic in the middle of the night. I wandered out of my tent and found myself talking to a woman who had been sober for quite a while. I told her my biggest fear was that I'd lose my sanity sober, and wind up in a psychiatric hospital. In the one year's time I spent in AA I'd seen it happen to 2 friends, and heard of it happening with others. She comforted me by telling me to watch closely all those who it happened to or happens to in the future. She promised that if I listen closely ill hear of some sort of chemicals they were using. Doctor prescribed chemicals, that mess with brain chemistry. She promised if I never went that route that I would heal, and while I realize I was giving that woman a lot of power by believing her, I did. And I found what she said to be accurate. The friend I wrote about in my blog had the same exact story as me. Except for the fact that she took anti anxiety and depression meds. I could tell lots more similar stories. All the people who wound up in psychiatric trouble, were taking psychiatric drugs. One could argue which came first, but I knew some of these people before they were medicated, and before they got worse.

At work, so for now I have to leave it at that.

ClearLight

I need to put in my experience with the medical profession.

They saved my life and made it worth living. Period. And I have met dozens of people that have had their lives saved by doctors.

I'm someone! I know lot's of others too. I suffered from debilitating depression and my doctor (MD) diagnosed my and prescribed a medication that made the depression go away. It doesn't have anything to do with "testing brain chemistry". What is that supposed to mean anyway? Thank God for my doctor.

No, actually you don't. You don't know a zillion things about yourself that a doctor can find out because they have medical knowledge you will never have.

Wrong again - they're trained to heal people. Pure and simple. They are trained to heal people.

Yeah - that's what Steve Jobs thought. Thing is -- he died needlessly because he tried to heal himself and listened to his doctors too late.
There's trust and there's blind trust. My doctors always fill me in on everything they're planning to do. I ask lots of questions. My doctors don't play the God game and I haven't met many that do. The ones that do - I drop them so fast it makes their heads spin and move on to a good doctor.

Bottom line - you're welcome to treat yourself - that's one less patient to use up doctor's time for the rest of us.

Threshold

I tried to self medicate for a long time with booze and drugs. That wasn't a good choice. I do believe it had a negative effect on my body chemistry. My brain is part of my body. I only say that because some people imply otherwise (not present company).

In my case, the theory that booze and drugs would help was a failed one.

Sometimes people do stuff, with the best intentions, and it is counterproductive. Hopefully they haven't damaged themselves beyond a point of being able to try something else.

Some people would rather be in a stupor, be it on Rx meds, street drugs, or booze, than try to address the underlying issues in their life that make them feel unable to deal with it.

Some people use "placebos"...which may also be in the form of an Rx med, an herb, or even booze or street drugs, and for whatever reason using that thing DOES make them feel like they can deal.

Or they use meditation, or religion, or volunteering, or a sexual fetish, and hey, sometimes people get relief and do become able to function using those things.

And some other people don't. Maybe it's chemistry. Maybe it's some miswiring (physical) in their brain, maybe it's a personality issue.

I may be wandering way off topic here, since the thread seems to be about how psychiatric drugs are bunk. But if they work as well as a placebo, and many people feel they are actually doing them some good ...are they doing some good or not?

I am glad I saw the light when it came to my misguided attempts to self medicate using drugs and alcohol. I am glad I chose a recovery option that has led me to freedom. The option I chose does not "work" for everyone and I've read entire expose books on it as well about what a load of crap it is.

I know many people who are self medicating with booze and drugs that think I am a crazy fool, a delusional crazy fool.

Joe Nerv

If I had cancer or even suspected I had cancer I'd be in a doctors office in a heartbeat.

dox

Joe: What chemical imbalances were you told that you had?

~dox

Joe Nerv

I don't remember specifically but pretty sure they were throwing the words seratonin and dopamine around. And how other chemicals affected that. What I remember best was that they were driving home the point that they weren't dealing with a "normal" brain. I needed chemical treatment because the chemicals in my brain were out of whack. My chemicals would go into normal "balance" if I treated them with Prozac, Zoloft, Imiprimine, or Wellbutrin... all of which I had a short stint with because I am in fact open minded. Gave at least 3 months to each of those, longer to prozac because everyone raved so much about it.

And while I agree with a lot of what threshold said, I think it goes a little beyond the it's a shame examples. I think people are often being tricked into thinking/believing they're being helped, when they're actually being hurt. Not always, but a good percentage of the time. And I think the whole medication fad is having a huge impact on our society. I'm all for live and let live and whatever works, but I think a lot of we're seeing is an illusion. And that concerns me.

Coldfusion

I have never been to rehab, but I have been to detox. Once.

I went there BECAUSE I wanted medications to detox, and that is why all the heroin addicts were there.

newby1961

To thine own self be true. I am not in AA to please anyone else and no one else has ever walked in my shoes so how can one judge that and secondly who gives anyone the right to judge what others are doing but God.

Joe Nerv

Don't know if that was aimed at me, but if I seem to be judging anybody my apologies. Wouldn't mind you pointing out where I did, and I'll do my best to correct it. I'm doing my best to keep this to my experience, and the experience I have with others who were or are close to me. I didn't post this out of judgement, I posted out of concern. And I'll repeat that I'm in no way whatsoever suggesting that anyone on medication, get off it. I am certain that that is a dangerous thing to do, on one's own anyhow.

And uh... if there was any judging goin on in this thread, I think it was towards me a few posts back.

tomsteve

shoemaker, stick to thy last.
i was on a high horse once, thinkin i knew what was better for the patients at detox/rehab than the ones running the show. didnt do me any good.

not everyone is gonna get it. it is a fact i had to accept and stick to the ones that want it.