freethinking

These types of debates are actually new to some people, even if they are old to you. The OP is new to sobriety and having some very valid questions that most of us have had at some point. Be patient!

blackoutgirl

Exactly.

Peter G

Only speaking as a tourist here, but this Original Poster is not who Langkah was addressing in his reply, which is just about as obvious as you can get. Conversations do evolve after all; debates often whittle down in details, past the original query.

Seems to me like that was an A+B transaction, based firmly within the larger context of this entire thread. Just sayin'. One might wonder why your apparently impatient interjection was necessary at all.

freethinking

Peter, this (which was typed after he specifically addressed certain people):

suggests to me he was addressing the whole thread, not just a specific poster.

Your reply to me here is impatient, I think you are projecting.

freethinking

I agree with Vinepest in his/her reply - what you described and quoted seems more like a result from chronic exposure to alcohol, rather than an explanation as to why this is a disease.

Peter G

lol!! True enough.

freethinking

Lol, well I "niced" my reply back since my original one (while so original, lol), seemed argumentative.

Peter G

Yeah, I don't disagree with you on that. In fact, I'm not so sure I buy the philosophy of our thing as a disease, in any traditional sense of the word anyway. My points in this thread are not arguing from any "pro disease" posture at all, only to try and make apparent why the classification was necessary to the AMA in the first place, and to demystify this whole very black (it's a disease damnit!!), or very white (it's all the result of bad choices damnit) conundrum, by pointing out the vast amounts of qualified research available.

I take the AMA's classification as something that was necessary in order to free up funding for more research. That's also how I've read it described many times in medical journals and from my own research. As far as it actually being a disease of the brain, who knows? I don't think even the AMA really knows for sure. Honestly it's not for me to pontificate with conviction, minus a degree in medicine/addiction treatment. More folks here making sweeping "choice" arguments could follow my lead in that regard. More importantly who bloody cares what it's called? If people use "disease" as a crutch I might feel bad, but if that crutch keeps them from another drink I say have at it.

I find it's only disturbing to some when the question of choice is thrown in the faces of people who, after chronic and long term exposure to alcohol, have lost any amount of choice in the matter. That shows a distinctly callous insensitivity - if not a completely unjustified denial of experiences that were all too real for some of us. Being blunt, when I first got sober and someone told me "Peter, you shouldn't make such bad choices", or "why did you decide to drink in the first place", I almost tore their heads clean off their necks just knowing that the question of choice had nothing to do with why I was dying. I took it as no less than a spit in the face of a misery I never asked for.

"Choice" arguments are almost identical to an experience I had as a teenager. While driving home from hockey practice I got caught in the middle of a freak snowstorm. I had a slight accident (slid off the road) as a result. When I arrived home my mother screamed at me "why were you driving in that snowstorm!!?" How could I possibly answer that question logically? There were nothing but clear skies when I set out. And therein lies the conundrum we are here debating and sharing about. Dunno if that makes any sense to anyone else but me, but it feels right saying it

Thing is; it's not black or white, and after a certain point, with alcoholism, it's definitely nowhere near simplistic or cut and dried, as a few here have been suggesting. The research is there, people only need peruse it objectively. The brain scans are also there, and such accumulative evidence suggests that there are medically quantifiable factors present, physiological reasons why an alcoholic can seem to completely lose their power to "choose" to drink or not. Does that evidence make this thing of ours a disease? Again, who knows, but I'm not arrogant enough to suggest it is or not, at least since this dis---ease has affected me in such a profoundly negative way. Having said that, does such research fly in the face of those who would have us believe it's all about an alcoholics bad moral choices? Damn straight it does.

Anyways, all of this speculation and polarization may or may not be useful to Dan's OP, but these are all things worth debating and it's obvious that many of us, in sharing our views, could stand to step back and stop being so bloody holier than thou about convictions they really don't own rights to.

freethinking

Well, regarding the AMA classifying it as a disease, I am glad they classified it as something because otherwise I don't think (at least in the U.S.) my insurance would have covered any of the treatment I have received for it in the past (detox, etc). I personally don't believe it is a disease in terms of cancer, etc - I wish there was some other word entirely for people who, of course have free will, but against any logic towards self-preservation keep choosing to put poison into their bodies and lose all. It does seem to be some form of mental illness to me. The only thing I really sort of feel in my gut is that the reasons why people become alcoholic are not black and white. I don't think I was anymore genetically predisposed to being an alcoholic as the next guy. I think my reasons are mainly inflated ego and upbringing (and, at a crucial time in my emotional development, hanging out with the wrong crowd). I don't think that is the case for other people. I think this *thing* drives people nuts because there is just no one clear answer on "why" it exists.

NYCDoglvr

I guess this is as good an excuse as any to stop taking care of your sobriety.

LosingmyMisery

Today, not drinking is a choice. There was a time where I had lost my choice to drink. I couldn't drink and I couldn't not drink. I was addicted to alcohol and not drinking seemed impossible. Why is it that others can drink alcohol "normally" and I can't? It doesn't matter. I understand I cannot drink and I don't. It took me a looooong time to get that. Addiction is hard to explain or understand. I clearly understand that I am "different" when it comes to alcohol. For that reason I abstain from it. Sobriety is a process. Getting there is too.