My Sponsor and I clash over Higher Power and Big Book Study
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Perhaps you should direct your sponsor to the "How it works" chapter in the Big Book. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to quit drinking! And the Steps are but suggestions. This is what AA itself says.
I'm an agnostic sober for 20 years and if anyone tried to cram Christianity down my throat I wouldn't be sober. I pray to a higher power of my own understanding as the BB suggests. I really hope you can find a new sponsor, not "letting" you do the first step for any reason is simply wrong. Bill Wilson would agree with me.
I'm an agnostic sober for 20 years and if anyone tried to cram Christianity down my throat I wouldn't be sober. I pray to a higher power of my own understanding as the BB suggests. I really hope you can find a new sponsor, not "letting" you do the first step for any reason is simply wrong. Bill Wilson would agree with me.
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
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Also what helped me was the Spiritual Experience appendix in the back of the Big Book.
SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.
In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.
Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.
We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
—Herbert Spencer
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.
In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.
Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.
We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
—Herbert Spencer
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by Sally1009 
I have tried to explain that I am an atheist, that my Higher Power for me can only be the power of the group. I have been willing to 'believe',...
Contrary to what's being posted on this thread, AA is neither religious nor Christian. The BB is emphatic about the requirement for a concept that makes sense to you. For me early on, that concept was very nameless and faceless, and is still very far removed from any traditional concept.
Lack of power was my problem. I had to tap into some additional power. By taking the 12 Steps as outlined in the BB, I was able to find all the power I needed. It didn't have to have a name.
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Of course, AA DOES require that you admit to personal powerlessness. You don't have to believe in a particular characterization of the outside power that gets you sober, but you DO have to believe that of yourself you are powerless.
This philosophical approach resonates with many people, and more power to them (no pun intended....), but I am living proof that you do not have to believe that you are personally powerless in order to recover from alcoholism.
This philosophical approach resonates with many people, and more power to them (no pun intended....), but I am living proof that you do not have to believe that you are personally powerless in order to recover from alcoholism.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
OTT...
I am not personally powerless.... yet I very easily reconcile this idea of "powerless over alcohol"... I am not powerless, I believe that God is within each one of us... You and I are both faces of God... well, at least that is how I experience my higher power.
Some things cannot be put into words or easily explained. That doesn't mean it's not real.
I am not personally powerless.... yet I very easily reconcile this idea of "powerless over alcohol"... I am not powerless, I believe that God is within each one of us... You and I are both faces of God... well, at least that is how I experience my higher power.
Some things cannot be put into words or easily explained. That doesn't mean it's not real.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
Powerless over alcohol, is powerless over alcohol.
( powerless) Specific to alcohol, 100%.
It's what happens in the body's digestion process of alcohol once alcohol is consumed.
For some it has abnormal reactions.
The abnormal reaction is a craving for more alcohol.
Normal drinkers don't crave more alcohol after the first drink of alcohol.
So if a person has a craving for more alcohol after they consume the first drink of alcohol, how would medical science classify that person?
My guess is, Alcoholic.
How would medical science classify a person who does not crave more alcohol after the first drink.
My guess is, Non-Alcoholic.
Does anyone then have the power to stop the craving on their own for more alcohol after the first drink of alcohol is consumed, if they classify themselves as Alcoholic?
If the answer is, not having the power to stop the craving for more alcohol after the first drink of alcohol is consumed, then it's fair for that person to admit to themselves they are powerless over alcohol.
How can it be philosophical if the abnormal digestive reaction to alcohol consumption is physical?
( powerless) Specific to alcohol, 100%.
It's what happens in the body's digestion process of alcohol once alcohol is consumed.
For some it has abnormal reactions.
The abnormal reaction is a craving for more alcohol.
Normal drinkers don't crave more alcohol after the first drink of alcohol.
So if a person has a craving for more alcohol after they consume the first drink of alcohol, how would medical science classify that person?
My guess is, Alcoholic.
How would medical science classify a person who does not crave more alcohol after the first drink.
My guess is, Non-Alcoholic.
Does anyone then have the power to stop the craving on their own for more alcohol after the first drink of alcohol is consumed, if they classify themselves as Alcoholic?
If the answer is, not having the power to stop the craving for more alcohol after the first drink of alcohol is consumed, then it's fair for that person to admit to themselves they are powerless over alcohol.
How can it be philosophical if the abnormal digestive reaction to alcohol consumption is physical?
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
You could go to AA in Israel, the Middle East, or Japan and thus avoid almost all the Christians. AA members don't have much of a problem with them in meetings there, since AA doesn't require Christian beliefs.
Or you could go to my home group in CA. We have about 2 Christians out of about 40 members. The longer term 30-40 year members are atheist or agnostic or pagan. No one is concerned about that because AA doesn't require Christian beliefs.
If you choose to believe the non-AA members who tell you AA does require Christan belief, then you're faced with converting to Christianity or leaving AA. Or you could believe the AA members who tell you that the realm of the spirit is all inclusive, never exclusive, and get to stay.
Choose wisely.
Or you could go to my home group in CA. We have about 2 Christians out of about 40 members. The longer term 30-40 year members are atheist or agnostic or pagan. No one is concerned about that because AA doesn't require Christian beliefs.
If you choose to believe the non-AA members who tell you AA does require Christan belief, then you're faced with converting to Christianity or leaving AA. Or you could believe the AA members who tell you that the realm of the spirit is all inclusive, never exclusive, and get to stay.
Choose wisely.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 818
Keith nailed it, I think. Regardless of the number of the number of times you find the word "God" in the Big Book, AA is neither a religious nor a Christian program. Unfortunately, some individuals and groups will always try to force their beliefs on others regarding this subject. Ignore them.
You stated that you're willing to use the group as your higher power and further on that you accept there are forces in the universe greater than you. Just leave it at that for now. And take the steps one at a time. I'm not sure where you're at, but it seems like you're jumping from step 2 to step 7 and back again. The steps are in an order for a reason. Take them in that order.
I have no problem with the existence of God, but agree with you that He, as my higher power, isn't too concerned with the daily minutia of each individual's life. He gave us free will so that He doesn't have to micromanage our existence. But as to your concerns that some higher power won't, if asked, help you out; well that's something that I suggest you file under the "wait and see" category.
One last thing. Try and scrape up a copy of "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. It's a pretty short book and from your post I think you may get something out of it.
You stated that you're willing to use the group as your higher power and further on that you accept there are forces in the universe greater than you. Just leave it at that for now. And take the steps one at a time. I'm not sure where you're at, but it seems like you're jumping from step 2 to step 7 and back again. The steps are in an order for a reason. Take them in that order.
I have no problem with the existence of God, but agree with you that He, as my higher power, isn't too concerned with the daily minutia of each individual's life. He gave us free will so that He doesn't have to micromanage our existence. But as to your concerns that some higher power won't, if asked, help you out; well that's something that I suggest you file under the "wait and see" category.
One last thing. Try and scrape up a copy of "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. It's a pretty short book and from your post I think you may get something out of it.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Of course, AA DOES require that you admit to personal powerlessness. You don't have to believe in a particular characterization of the outside power that gets you sober, but you DO have to believe that of yourself you are powerless.
This philosophical approach resonates with many people, and more power to them (no pun intended....), but I am living proof that you do not have to believe that you are personally powerless in order to recover from alcoholism.
This philosophical approach resonates with many people, and more power to them (no pun intended....), but I am living proof that you do not have to believe that you are personally powerless in order to recover from alcoholism.
It does NOT mean powerlessness over anything else. And nobody has to submit to anything. The "only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" That's it.
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Join Date: May 2010
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Originally Posted by Mark75
OTT...
I am not personally powerless.... yet I very easily reconcile this idea of "powerless over alcohol"... I am not powerless,
I am not personally powerless.... yet I very easily reconcile this idea of "powerless over alcohol"... I am not powerless,
As has been said......PEOPLE in AA may say such things but it's not part of the AA program (it may be part of that person's "version" of the AA program......which, by definition, isn't "true" AA.....it's an offshoot of it).
For me what works is "powerless over alcohol....both when I start to drink and before I start to drink - powerless to moderate and powerless to keep from starting." As for the rest of my life......in some areas I'm finding I'm far more powerful than I believed while in other areas where I thought I had power I'm finding I'm now more powerful than I am over booze.
Completely powerless??? Hell no...... NOBODY is.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
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When I first came into the rooms, I was powerless over alcohol in that I could not not drink. But the program taught me how to abstain from alcohol through the 12 steps, sponsorship, meetings and 12 step work. AA taught me that I had a choice now as to pick up that drink.
So now I suddenly have power over alcohol through the option of choosing. Or do I?
My choices here are really limited. I can not drink (good option) or take that drink and suffer the consequences (Jail, wet brain, death). This is pretty much a lousy choice and in essence offers no real choice at all. I would call this a limiting factor in my life. A choice to live or to die isn't really a choice for me.
So given the "options", I feel there are no real options. Even though I'm not drinking, alcohol still exerts power over me by limiting my choices.
There are a few other things in life that I have no power over - other people, the sun rising every morning, etc. This doesn't mean I'm totally powerless (I still have myself to kick around), just not the center of the universe I once was.
So now I suddenly have power over alcohol through the option of choosing. Or do I?
My choices here are really limited. I can not drink (good option) or take that drink and suffer the consequences (Jail, wet brain, death). This is pretty much a lousy choice and in essence offers no real choice at all. I would call this a limiting factor in my life. A choice to live or to die isn't really a choice for me.
So given the "options", I feel there are no real options. Even though I'm not drinking, alcohol still exerts power over me by limiting my choices.
There are a few other things in life that I have no power over - other people, the sun rising every morning, etc. This doesn't mean I'm totally powerless (I still have myself to kick around), just not the center of the universe I once was.
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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I am not powerless over alcohol. I never have been, and I never will be.
I chose to quit drinking, and I did so. I am living proof that one does not have to believe in the concepts promoted by AA in order to recover from alcoholism.
I chose to quit drinking, and I did so. I am living proof that one does not have to believe in the concepts promoted by AA in order to recover from alcoholism.
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
Each of us is proof of something or other.
For a while I was proof that smoking dope and getting loaded to the point where I couldn't find my bed that one doesn't have to believe in the concepts promoted by AA in order to recover from alcoholism.
I advised several horrible drunks in my crappy apartment complex that they should do as I did because I had simply chosen to quit drinking and they could too.
Needlepoint kept my hands too occupied to hold a drink and thus evidenced my vast power over alcohol for a while. I advised horrible drunks to buy the larger of the patterns so that it would be easier on the eye.
I often decided not to drink after trouble and carried through for a while, showing I was in solid control of deciding to not drive into stuff when drunk. I told many horrible alcoholics to make a firm decision as I had done to not drink at all and stick by it for a while.
Currently I'm proof that the AA stuff works well for many decades, and will often suggest it to horrible drunks. But, my pattern shows that all might change if I ever get drunk again and go on to yet some other good idea.
For a while I was proof that smoking dope and getting loaded to the point where I couldn't find my bed that one doesn't have to believe in the concepts promoted by AA in order to recover from alcoholism.
I advised several horrible drunks in my crappy apartment complex that they should do as I did because I had simply chosen to quit drinking and they could too.
Needlepoint kept my hands too occupied to hold a drink and thus evidenced my vast power over alcohol for a while. I advised horrible drunks to buy the larger of the patterns so that it would be easier on the eye.
I often decided not to drink after trouble and carried through for a while, showing I was in solid control of deciding to not drive into stuff when drunk. I told many horrible alcoholics to make a firm decision as I had done to not drink at all and stick by it for a while.
Currently I'm proof that the AA stuff works well for many decades, and will often suggest it to horrible drunks. But, my pattern shows that all might change if I ever get drunk again and go on to yet some other good idea.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Hi, I don't know if this helps but I was at a meeting this week where a woman shared that she and her former sponsor clashed over religion. The sponsor was pushy and wanted the woman to become religious and so the woman broke off that sponsor relationship (I am new to AA and don't know all the terminology, sorry), and right now has a temporary sponsor until she can find a new one. In my opinion it might be better to have a sponsor who understands you are not religious and who doesn't push religion. But either way it sounds you are trying to do all that you can to stay sober and I think that's what counts. Good luck and keep it up.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
I am not powerless over alcohol. I never have been, and I never will be.
If you're not powerless, then there is no need for a higher power. Go and be happy. Or better yet, help others who are also not powerless.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by keithj
Then why are you commenting on a sponsor/higher power thread? Clearly, you have the power to stay sober. The need for a higher power is irrelevant to you.
If you're not powerless, then there is no need for a higher power. Go and be happy. Or better yet, help others who are also not powerless.
If you're not powerless, then there is no need for a higher power. Go and be happy. Or better yet, help others who are also not powerless.
For me, if I have to convince myself of a concept or try way too hard to think outside the box to "get" a concept, then maybe that concept is not for me. It never, ever made sense to me that a power greater than me could restore me to sanity whether it be the AA group or the wonderfully ridiculous example so many people use while on this topic (that a 'friend of a friend' used), a "doorknob". That is not how I see a higher power "acting" in my life, period.
I do believe in a "higher power" and I pray, but I do not believe I am powerless over alcohol and I just wish, when I was struggling so hard with a higher power in AA, I had known about AVRT and SMART. But, I think AA works for a ton of people and I think that's great too.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by keithj
Then why are you commenting on a sponsor/higher power thread? Clearly, you have the power to stay sober. The need for a higher power is irrelevant to you.
If you're not powerless, then there is no need for a higher power. Go and be happy. Or better yet, help others who are also not powerless.
If you're not powerless, then there is no need for a higher power. Go and be happy. Or better yet, help others who are also not powerless.
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Location: Central NC
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Sally
I found I could set aside my old ideas,and find new ones which worked for me as a reasonable starting point
I was excited when I found this out because I did not know I could do this.
I loved this new freedom.
I just asked,"whoever or whatever that might be out there" to help me stay sober,one day at a time ,and say thank you that evening for a sober day.
nothing else mattered then but sobriety.I cared less about what others believed or religion or anything,my main goal was to find some kind of sobriety for me.I was trying to save my butt.
my suggestion:find some kind of reasonable starting point you are comfortable with,and go from there.Set any old ideas and expectation aside and let the steps give you what they will give you.Experience it,enjoy it if possible.We all need a reasonable starting point of some kind or we will flounder and we may get drunk.Best wishes to you Sally
I found I could set aside my old ideas,and find new ones which worked for me as a reasonable starting point
I was excited when I found this out because I did not know I could do this.
I loved this new freedom.
I just asked,"whoever or whatever that might be out there" to help me stay sober,one day at a time ,and say thank you that evening for a sober day.
nothing else mattered then but sobriety.I cared less about what others believed or religion or anything,my main goal was to find some kind of sobriety for me.I was trying to save my butt.
my suggestion:find some kind of reasonable starting point you are comfortable with,and go from there.Set any old ideas and expectation aside and let the steps give you what they will give you.Experience it,enjoy it if possible.We all need a reasonable starting point of some kind or we will flounder and we may get drunk.Best wishes to you Sally
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by freethinking
This isn't the 12-step forum so I think he has a right to reply with his AVRT experience/philosophy, and I think he was just trying to help the OP understand that in the end there are other ways of approaching all of this. And FWIW, I do not think OTT was trying to say that AAers have to believe they are completely powerless over all things in life. I thought it was a given he meant with regards to alcohol.
P.S. I'm female
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