Mark75

I am interested in this thread, partly because I got some "tough love" and I don't think I needed it, necessarily, but it is what it is and I have left that resentment behind...

I am wondering, though... What is tough love?? ... as spoken to/of by the OP and others in this thread?

Definitions? Descriptions?

susanlauren

BacktoSquareOne,
What do you consider "tough love"? What do you consider "enabling"? What do you consider "detachment"? What do you consider "appropriate boundaries"? What do you consider "acceptable behavior"? When is "enough enough"?

I am sure you are correct that there are alcoholics and addicts who do none of the things I listed in my hypothetical example. But alcoholism and addiction do tend to get worse rather than better. And unfortunately, I grew up with the worst case scenario.
Susan

LexieCat

My second husband almost died of liver failure. He was (and presumably still is) a good-hearted person. After his near-death experience (a week in a coma, several weeks barely hanging on with encephalopathy from the liver disease, 40 quarts of ascites drained from his abdomen, being told that IF he lived he would need a liver transplant), he got sober. We got married. He got a job. We moved. He was found (miraculously) to have EARLY cirrhosis, and if he quit drinking would live a long and healthy life.

He went back to drinking. He lost his job, forcing me to look for a second job. He renewed the lease on our house after I told him we could no longer afford it. I was sick with grief and worry, and all I could see in my future was another deathbed vigil.

I had to leave. I got an apartment and left him enough rent for one month, and made him deal with the consequences of signing the new lease.

It was me or the disease. I could do nothing for him. I had supported his sobriety as well as I could. I showed faith in him, I encouraged him. Even as I left, he was blaming me for "giving up."

His continued drinking was his choice. He quit going to AA. He stopped even trying.

Now, should I have stayed, gotten a second job while he lay at home every day passed out by the time I came home? Should I have had to wonder whether he was going to start vomiting blood from esophageal hemorrhage?

Terminally Unique

I think part of the disconnect here - between disease and tough love - is that traditionally, alcoholism was viewed as sin. The Bible, for example, labels drunkenness as one of the "works of the flesh" (Galatians 5:21) and warns that no "drunkard" will inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10).

Although she did not invent it, Marty Mann, in collaboration with E. M. Jellinek, sought to promote the disease concept of alcoholism, presumably in the hope that it would ease some of the stigma surrounding alcoholism. Through the founding of the National Council for Alcoholism (NCA) and its subsequent efforts, she largely succeeded in popularizing the disease concept, particularly by leveraging E.M. Jellinek's book, "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism."

However, culturally, alcoholics are still treated, even today, in many respects, as sinners.

In his thesis, "Under the Influence" - in which he sought to show that alcoholism is rooted in physiology, not psychology or immorality - James Milam points out that the traditional sin-confession-repentance cycle is clearly evident in the 12-Steps. Bill Wilson also makes specific reference to the seven deadly sins in "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" (see pages 48, 49, 66 & 67).

Even Rational Recovery's use of "The Beast" metaphor is not entirely accidental - it comes from the Bible, as for example, in Satan's temptation of Christ in Matthew 4:5-11. It posits a biological source for addictive desire, but it still uses what is, in effect, a "moral solution" to alcoholism.

The CBT/REBT method developed by Albert Ellis, used by SMART Recovery, stands out as an exception to this. It views addiction as rooted in beliefs, but it also takes into account the perceived moral dimension of addiction, since addicted people are often burdened by guilt because of it, which often deepens their desire for intoxication.

So, on the one hand, alcoholism has come to be viewed as a disease, but society in general has not necessarily adjusted its attitudes toward the alcoholic, or its solutions to alcoholism, hence the disconnect.

I don't consider alcoholism a moral issue, or the alcoholic as a sinner per se - my conceptual understanding alcoholism is physiological. However, I personally utilize a "moral" solution to overcome it. As a result, I have thought about this particular paradox on several occasions.

MrDavid

Hi BackToSquareOne...Thanks for the topic.

My parents were faced with a similar dilemma. What to do with their alcoholic son??? They tried so hard to fix my alcoholism, time and time again, but to no avail. The family nucleus was beginning to tear apart and the only way to salvage what was left of this sinking ship was to let go and let God instead. I don’t blame them for their decision, but I did question their motives as to why. Ultimately, it was my decision to drink, time and time again, even after the many wonderful and heartfelt interventions they had arranged on my behalf. The day I stepped out that door was the first day I ever felt alone and one that set this alcoholic straight despite my many years of suffering while living on the streets.

I lived in the bowery for many years and one thing I wondered from time to time was how I ended up here. I had to take myself (with me) everywhere I went, which (unfortunately) caused me to view my life from an entirely different perspective –my alcoholic one. It wasn’t the drunk-filled weekends with my friends anymore, but a hard fought reality of shame and solace associated with my alcoholism. No one wants to drag a 210lb disease around with them everywhere they went but I did with regularity. The day I viewed my alcoholism from the most desperate of circumstances, was the day my alcoholism finally stood out. That was the day I finally asked for help......thank God.

I’m not saying that tough love is the approach to take, but it did have its benefits. It might not be the correct way to deal with the problem at hand -at least not from everyone’s perspective, but it did improve my spiritual conditioning which ultimately set my recovery in motion. I thank God for Sister Mary who through Divine love set my mind straight as she directed me towards a solution, not just another drink. The friars at the recovery center were a blessing as well and helped instill in me a sober routine that included prayer and step work and partnering in with other recovering alcoholics of course. That was the guidance I needed and one that has been a lifesaver for many years now and I hope by God’s grace can continue on for many years to come.

My parents, my siblings and myself have all been reunited and are a living testimony to the grace of God and have through recovery outlets like “AA” and online forums like “Sober Recovery” began to rebuild what was lost so many years ago. I’ve been sober for almost ten years now and my personal life has never been better. I hope anyone who suffers with similar bouts of “what to do next” with the alcoholics in their life, will get the much need clarity to make the right decision when need be. Ask for help, find sources of information that can help you make informed decisions before venturing forward and never give up on the alcoholics in your lives. My parents never did -despite their decision and their prayers as well as the prayers of others have given both of us a second chance, that will continue to pay dividends here and now and for as long as we have left –thanks be to God. :ghug3

~God bless~

Terminally Unique

I do agree entirely with you on this, although unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), I cannot say with certainty how I would personally react in such a situation. As such, I try to be very careful in giving others blanket advice about how to deal with their loved ones - only they can know what they are willing and able to tolerate.

I am, however, cognizant of the reality that addiction is a black hole, which, if not contained, will suck inside itself every financial and emotional resource a family has.

BackToSquareOne

Here's the cliff notes version Mark. : Tough love - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BackToSquareOne

Susan, your questions are impossible to answer in a general sense as every case is different. Of course there comes a time when detachment from the alcoholic/addict is the only viable option. I personally wouldn't tolerate any of the behavior you gave in the example of the heroin addicted daughter. As a primary modality of treatment though I think tough love leaves a lot to be desired.

Making a person who is already suffering the agony of addiction go through even more suffering is psychologically backwards. Don't doctors learn a little something known as "First, do no harm". Does getting tough with the alcoholic even begin to address the real problem?

What about the issue of abuse of power by the person doling out the toughness? Could cruel treatment keep the alcoholic from getting real help? Could well intentioned people running wild with heresay evidence that tough love is the way to go actually do more harm than good? Just my 2 cents worth...

Terminally Unique

Google "surviving straight inc" - there is a documentary coming out on this.

BackToSquareOne

Here's the link to that : Surviving Straight Inc. the Documentary

yeahgr8

This is a problem with tuff love and with the opposite...what's the point in being hard on someone or being soft on someone without being armed with an answer or solution? Better to either keep quiet or offer no opinion.

And then you have to be sure that you have worked the solution or problem through yourself, else, as above, it is just an opinion and you might as well keep your mouth shut because opinions based on no real life experience can do a huge amount of harm.

Sometimes people just want someone to listen though and you can remain nice and neutral in this instance and still help the other person presuming that you're boundries are in place and you don't let yourself get emotionally drained.

Lots to consider!

Mark75

Thanx for the link backtosquareone

I am middle aged. So my perspective is that of an adult male who was not out on the street but I was in a lot of trouble career wise with the possibility of legal problems (thankfully this did not come to be...)

I ended up in a treatment center for career people... law enforcement, professionals, etc... It was not Malibu or Pasedena or South Florida... not by any stretch of the imagination... LOL... It was nice and clean, good food, mostly... Well trained staff except for the "counselors" who hung out at night... mostly recovered people with an interest in giving back...

They had rules that were absolute, breaking those rules had consequences, and they thought nothing of handing out a "therapeutic discharge" if rules were broken more than once or if they were of a "serious" nature (bringing in drugs, obviously, but others less heinous...)... This was particularly a severe consequence because a therapeutic discharge very possibly meant the end of a career... Even an apparent lack of interest or motivation as detected by the staff had consequences... I remember getting excoriated over a sarcastic remark I made during rec therapy about the lame "challenge" that was part of a team building exercise... Well, I had it comin', but I didn't appreciate it at the time... Others, who sat in the back and didn't pay attention might be moved back in their program, meaning longer stay, more money, etc....

There was very little "love"... very few attaboys and I felt a purposeful emotional distance from everybody... I felt punished... It was tough love and I resented the hell out of it.

But, I see now what they were trying to do... And, well, I survived and I came at this whole recovery thing from a perspective of humility...

So that's my experience. Would I change it if I could? Hell yes. But I kept my job and family and haven't picked up in the almost 3 years since....

mama36

IMO there are two sides to this...two outcomes and what if, just what if a person dealt with their alcoholic loved one with "tough love" as spoken of in some cases above, and that person went through the being alone, the carrying around their 210 pound disease and couldn't handle it? What if walking the streets and living in horrible places and being around others like themselves 24/7 was detrimental to their well being...not that they are well but lets face it, it could be worse in some cases by kicking them to the curb. What if something happened to that person that we kicked to the curb? What if loving them and being there for them is the only thing that could save them from harm either by themselves or by something bigger than that?

I have experience with the leaving the abusive alcoholic who was pounding the hell out of the entire family...yeah, time to get out. I believe that what square one is referring to is someone much different than that.

I don't know about others, but I know for me that if I kicked my son to the curb and alcoholism took his life one way or another I would never be able to live with myself.

I completely agree if you are being beaten or stolen from or abused or the likes then there has to be a limit, but in square one's case I believe that we are talking about something entirely different and kicking this person to the curb may just make them take a huge turn in the wrong direction.

We all have opinions and they are always intersting...IMHO we have to do what we can do depending on the situation and tough love is not always the best way to deal with things.

D.

Boleo

"Giving a alcoholic options is not an act of kindness"
- Clarence Snyder (Founder of the Cleveland group)

This makes sense to me now because when I first sought out sobriety, what I really wanted was a temporary solution that would allow me to get my "STUFF" back and then go back to drinking in some improved manor.

Clarence also "qualified" his sponce's with a few simple questions designed to weed out those looking for a easier, softer way. He never told them that they did not qualify. He simply told them to come back when they were ready.

IMO trying to help people who are not ready for help is not helpful. Al-Anon calls it "Enabling".

zbear23

hmmmm. Where to start.<G>
"Alcoholic" is actually a pretty vague AA term. Technically, it is most often referring to a diagnostic label of "alcohol dependence." A lesser problem, often mischaracaterized as alcholism is diagnosed "alcohol abuse." Both of these diagnoses have very specific signs and symptoms and, sad to say, the "typical" AA labeling of an alcoholic as a liar, cheat and a thief, while not universally true,..and obviously distasteful... is pretty accurate. My priority was protecting the only way I had learned to avoid or cope with my own misery....my self loathing, fears, insecurities, anxieties, etc. For me, recovery has been a process of learning to regulate my thinking and feelings without depending on substances. IOW...I've ceased being a victim and have taken responsibility for myself. I stopped holding friends and loved ones hostage. One might even call it "growing up." Drinking was a poor solution to my problem. The problem wasn't drinking, but thinking, and part of that was the insanity of believing I could drink in safety....after proving time after time that I couldn't.

I have a problem with the "tuff" part of tuff love, as usually it is anything but kind and loving....probably due to the anger, frustration and fears of those trapped in watching the addict/alcoholic commit suicide on the instalment plan. Desperate measures for desperate circumstances. I think that detachment can be accomplished with kindness. It need not be punative. OTOH, it is also insane to continue allowing an addict to abuse you and put your life and happiness at risk. It's true....I cannot cure the alcoholic, but I CAN disengage and work on my own recovery from enabling or codependency or whatever insanity caused me to remain far too long in an abusive situation. Alanon is, IMO, a pretty good resource.

As for the comparison with heart disease, etc....I think that a far more appropriate comparison is to diabetes, which also has a behavioral componant. If I see someone eating themselves to death, or drinking themselves to death....is that so different than standing by while they put a gun to their head? I am not responsible for being an alcoholic.... whether or not it is a disease, it is not what I aspired to. I AM responsible for my recovery. It was not my desire or ambition to become addicted. And until I am able to identify, acknowledge and accept my "powerlessness," those around me will be well served to protect themselves from me....and if possible, help protect me from myself. Until I experience enough pain and suffering as a consequence of my addiction, I probably won't be willing to change. Being deprived of those resources that might alleviate the pain and lessen the consequences generally speeds up the willingness to change. I will let you save me over and over again, so long as you are willing. Refusing to participate in someone elses self destructive behavior .... which, incidentally, always damages those who love them .... is IMO a kindness, not a punishment. If a diabetic doesn't follow doctor's orders on diet, lifestyle, etc., he/she is responsible for the consequences. Once I accepted my alcoholism, and was offered a solution that has, over time, proven itself to work, THEN I became responsible for my recovery. And the truth is IMO, AA works just fine. It didn't work for me until I followed directions precisely....just like taking prescribed medication as directed. Why seek help if I'm unwilling to accept it?

The facts are these: statistically, diabetics, hypertensives and asthmatics relapse at a higher rate than alcoholics, when measured by the need for retreatment within the first year; and they generally do so because they won't "follow the treatment plan....wont' follow doctor's orders." Also....those who voluntarily enter treatment actually stand no better chance for long term sobriety than those who are mandated. Further, the central problem, besides the possibility of physical damage and death, is denial. Along with denial comes delusion. Alcohlics live in a delusional reality and sometimes it takes great fortitude and determination to "force" them into a moment of clarity in which they may be willing to see the truth and accept help. Really, interventions are just methods to momentarily break through the denial. Because the clarity is usually short lived....the van may be idling at the curb: there is seldom any reality in the "I'll do it tomorrow" plan for sobriety.

Finally....I will respect another's choice to drink or drug, etc....but I will also do whatever I need to do to protect myself from the consequences of that behavior. If I need to change the locks, so be it. If I need to call the cops....well alright then. I've known lots of recovering addicts who owe their lives to being arrested and jailed.

One of our slogans is "first things first." Just like they advise us on an airplane to put our own oxygen mask on first, before trying to save anyone else....First thing is to do what I can to preserve life....mine and yours. If that's uncomfortable, or feels like I"m being mean..... oh well.

Addiction is insanity, and seldom responds to reason. Tuff love is a combination of loving myself as well as another. I will not sacrifice my life to another's insanity. I will be forever grateful to those who, in my early recovery, loved me enough to be honest with me.

blessings
zb

Terminally Unique

Thank you for sharing your experience, Mark.

I am aware of situations situations such as you describe, and of that approach to "treatment," but others may not be. I know from experience that people would not necessarily believe me if I were to describe the exact same thing you did, and would possibly try to say "that's not true, that doesn't happen, you are making it up."

I draw very different conclusions on the practice, however.

Mark75

Yea, AVRT, I am ambivalent about the experience as well, but just ambivalent... not critical, necessarily. If an institution is going to certify to the public that a cop has recovered enough to trust him back on the street with a gun, or that a nurse is not impaired and can administer medication safely... that is an awfully high standard...

I am not at all ambivalent about therapeutic communities run by recovered, sometimes not for very long, addicts and alcoholics... that is tough love without the love and I have many concerns... but even they have their supporters...

This is a good thread so far.... but, as has become apparent, this is a topic with many different angles, experience and goals.

Thanx BTSO