So I spent last night..
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by LexieCat 
I am always ready to listen to and to discuss thoughtful, legitimate criticisms of AA. Nothing is perfect. And, because it is made up of human beings, there are individual members who bring discredit on AA. HOWEVER, AA is fortunately much bigger than the individuals that make it up...
Some people will simply not find AA helpful. There are alternatives. I hope everyone finds a way to recover that works for him or her.
Some people will simply not find AA helpful. There are alternatives. I hope everyone finds a way to recover that works for him or her.
These people, who do not necessarily want to be in AA, might certainly end up with an axe to grind.
I'll just point out that as a result, some groups via "group conscience" have decided that they will not sign "court slips."
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 273
I think the main criticism people have with AA is "Why does it have to be bundled with religion?" Why can't it just be about recovery, instead of including God and basically excluding non-Christians? It's that frustration that leads people to extrapolate their hatred from 'AA not being secular is horrible' to 'everything about AA is horrible.'
I think a lot of people are helped by AA. I think a lot of people feel excluded from that help because it is so religious. For goodness sake, it has its own 'big book.' If that's not a kick in the head to atheists, I don't know what is. I don't think people who are used to being surrounded by religion realise just how offensive that is. You get responses like 'it's not just about religion, there's help if you aren't religious' but that doesn't make it any less alienating. Religion has a necessarily 'holier than thou' air about it because they genuinely think you're going to Hell because you aren't of their faith... It's hard to be around people like that, even if they aren't always conscious that this is the doctrine of their organization.
AA is great if you believe in God. Not so much for everyone else.
PS:I know what I've written is probably offensive. I'm not saying AA is a cult. I'm just saying it seems from my outside perspective to be intertwined with religion. A poster above said you have to recite religious scripture... I think if you don't know why that would be uncomfortable for an atheist, you ought to step into our shoes for a day. Of course, I have other reasons for not attending AA, but I really do think if those other reasons were gone the religious aspect would still be upsetting enough to seek other methods.
I think a lot of people are helped by AA. I think a lot of people feel excluded from that help because it is so religious. For goodness sake, it has its own 'big book.' If that's not a kick in the head to atheists, I don't know what is. I don't think people who are used to being surrounded by religion realise just how offensive that is. You get responses like 'it's not just about religion, there's help if you aren't religious' but that doesn't make it any less alienating. Religion has a necessarily 'holier than thou' air about it because they genuinely think you're going to Hell because you aren't of their faith... It's hard to be around people like that, even if they aren't always conscious that this is the doctrine of their organization.
AA is great if you believe in God. Not so much for everyone else.
PS:I know what I've written is probably offensive. I'm not saying AA is a cult. I'm just saying it seems from my outside perspective to be intertwined with religion. A poster above said you have to recite religious scripture... I think if you don't know why that would be uncomfortable for an atheist, you ought to step into our shoes for a day. Of course, I have other reasons for not attending AA, but I really do think if those other reasons were gone the religious aspect would still be upsetting enough to seek other methods.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
I've never watched them and i'm in AA...why would i go somewhere then look for stuff slating the place i'm going to?
Watched any of the vids about drunks behaving like a a bunch of brainless chimps on yourtube, that's worth a laugh too:-)
Watched any of the vids about drunks behaving like a a bunch of brainless chimps on yourtube, that's worth a laugh too:-)
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 323
Originally Posted by Che
I think the main criticism people have with AA is "Why does it have to be bundled with religion?" Why can't it just be about recovery, instead of including God and basically excluding non-Christians? It's that frustration that leads people to extrapolate their hatred from 'AA not being secular is horrible' to 'everything about AA is horrible.'
I think a lot of people are helped by AA. I think a lot of people feel excluded from that help because it is so religious. For goodness sake, it has its own 'big book.' If that's not a kick in the head to atheists, I don't know what is. I don't think people who are used to being surrounded by religion realise just how offensive that is. You get responses like 'it's not just about religion, there's help if you aren't religious' but that doesn't make it any less alienating. Religion has a necessarily 'holier than thou' air about it because they genuinely think you're going to Hell because you aren't of their faith... It's hard to be around people like that, even if they aren't always conscious that this is the doctrine of their organization.
AA is great if you believe in God. Not so much for everyone else.
PS:I know what I've written is probably offensive. I'm not saying AA is a cult. I'm just saying it seems from my outside perspective to be intertwined with religion. A poster above said you have to recite religious scripture... I think if you don't know why that would be uncomfortable for an atheist, you ought to step into our shoes for a day. Of course, I have other reasons for not attending AA, but I really do think if those other reasons were gone the religious aspect would still be upsetting enough to seek other methods.
I think a lot of people are helped by AA. I think a lot of people feel excluded from that help because it is so religious. For goodness sake, it has its own 'big book.' If that's not a kick in the head to atheists, I don't know what is. I don't think people who are used to being surrounded by religion realise just how offensive that is. You get responses like 'it's not just about religion, there's help if you aren't religious' but that doesn't make it any less alienating. Religion has a necessarily 'holier than thou' air about it because they genuinely think you're going to Hell because you aren't of their faith... It's hard to be around people like that, even if they aren't always conscious that this is the doctrine of their organization.
AA is great if you believe in God. Not so much for everyone else.
PS:I know what I've written is probably offensive. I'm not saying AA is a cult. I'm just saying it seems from my outside perspective to be intertwined with religion. A poster above said you have to recite religious scripture... I think if you don't know why that would be uncomfortable for an atheist, you ought to step into our shoes for a day. Of course, I have other reasons for not attending AA, but I really do think if those other reasons were gone the religious aspect would still be upsetting enough to seek other methods.
Wake up to 2011. I am 180 lbs, muscular, lifting, have gf, have close friends. I still think religion is ********, but I've got some experience under my belt. I can say, no it doesn't make sense to stone gay people or women. Yes it does make sense that if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. Etc etc.
Frankly your religion is your choice. When I was a skinny little ***** atheism made perfect sense. I was at the bottom of the food chain. I hated all those assholes who were beautiful and their parents had money and no drugs no mental illness and it just seemed like "yeah, of course you believe in God, you've never had to overcome anything of significance in your entire life". Now that I have some things, now that I like myself, I have some things going on, I'm more like, I dunno, is agnostic the one where you believe theres a greater power out there? Yeah I believe theres something greater out there. I believe theres something after this life that is beautiful probably beyond words. But you know over and over again when i see atheists I see that social outcast I was. I see fat men with beards and skinny kids with acne. People just don't grasp how much their outward appearance can effect their interaction with their environment and ultimately the course of their life. You know recently I asked a weight lifting buddy why everyone in this one high class restaurant was jacked and muscled up. He said "because you want someone whos clean and takes care of themselves touching and handling your food. You wouldn't want some scraggly person with beat up clothes and a poor appearance touching your food right?". And thats just talking about food.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Well, the main answer to your question about "religion" (which I could turn into a debate about religion versus spirituality), is that the "spiritual experience" (or "spiritual awakening") IS what AA is about. It's what the first 100 alcoholics found worked for them when nothing else had.
So it's impossible, really, to talk about AA "minus the spiritual component." It would be a contradiction in terms. You wouldn't be talking about AA, you would be talking about something that adopts part of AA without the heart of it.
Anyone is free to create a recovery program that involves no concept of a Higher Power. Someone has--SMART, for example. There are others.
I don't know of any government programs in the U.S. that require AA any longer. The courts have held that it violates the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. Whether you agree with that interpretation or not, it's the law. Private organizations can require it or not. The government CAN, however, mandate alcohol treatment. Many people flock to AA for that purpose, simply because it is ubiquitous--it's free and it's easy to find. That isn't AA's doing, it's the lack of alternatives out there.
So it's impossible, really, to talk about AA "minus the spiritual component." It would be a contradiction in terms. You wouldn't be talking about AA, you would be talking about something that adopts part of AA without the heart of it.
Anyone is free to create a recovery program that involves no concept of a Higher Power. Someone has--SMART, for example. There are others.
I don't know of any government programs in the U.S. that require AA any longer. The courts have held that it violates the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. Whether you agree with that interpretation or not, it's the law. Private organizations can require it or not. The government CAN, however, mandate alcohol treatment. Many people flock to AA for that purpose, simply because it is ubiquitous--it's free and it's easy to find. That isn't AA's doing, it's the lack of alternatives out there.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 223
Have to say that's the main reason I don't do AA, the Christian aspect. I am not religious but have started reading some Buddhist books during this time and find their compassion and way of viewing the world very helpful and enlightening
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
I have a good friend who is a devout Buddhist who is also in AA. AA is about a "Higher Power," not a specific "brand" of Higher Power. No deity is required at all.
I was very "iffy" about my beliefs when I started with AA, but I had no problem with the Lord's Prayer at the end. There is something powerful about standing with others and expressing gratitude, hope, and a desire to forgive, to whatever Power there may be. Even if it is just to the Power that is in that room, in the people I am with.
I was very "iffy" about my beliefs when I started with AA, but I had no problem with the Lord's Prayer at the end. There is something powerful about standing with others and expressing gratitude, hope, and a desire to forgive, to whatever Power there may be. Even if it is just to the Power that is in that room, in the people I am with.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by Che
I think the main criticism people have with AA is "Why does it have to be bundled with religion?" Why can't it just be about recovery, instead of including God and basically excluding non-Christians? It's that frustration that leads people to extrapolate their hatred from 'AA not being secular is horrible' to 'everything about AA is horrible.'
I think a lot of people are helped by AA. I think a lot of people feel excluded from that help because it is so religious. For goodness sake, it has its own 'big book.' If that's not a kick in the head to atheists, I don't know what is. I don't think people who are used to being surrounded by religion realise just how offensive that is. You get responses like 'it's not just about religion, there's help if you aren't religious' but that doesn't make it any less alienating. Religion has a necessarily 'holier than thou' air about it because they genuinely think you're going to Hell because you aren't of their faith... It's hard to be around people like that, even if they aren't always conscious that this is the doctrine of their organization.
AA is great if you believe in God. Not so much for everyone else.
PS:I know what I've written is probably offensive. I'm not saying AA is a cult. I'm just saying it seems from my outside perspective to be intertwined with religion. A poster above said you have to recite religious scripture... I think if you don't know why that would be uncomfortable for an atheist, you ought to step into our shoes for a day. Of course, I have other reasons for not attending AA, but I really do think if those other reasons were gone the religious aspect would still be upsetting enough to seek other methods.
I think a lot of people are helped by AA. I think a lot of people feel excluded from that help because it is so religious. For goodness sake, it has its own 'big book.' If that's not a kick in the head to atheists, I don't know what is. I don't think people who are used to being surrounded by religion realise just how offensive that is. You get responses like 'it's not just about religion, there's help if you aren't religious' but that doesn't make it any less alienating. Religion has a necessarily 'holier than thou' air about it because they genuinely think you're going to Hell because you aren't of their faith... It's hard to be around people like that, even if they aren't always conscious that this is the doctrine of their organization.
AA is great if you believe in God. Not so much for everyone else.
PS:I know what I've written is probably offensive. I'm not saying AA is a cult. I'm just saying it seems from my outside perspective to be intertwined with religion. A poster above said you have to recite religious scripture... I think if you don't know why that would be uncomfortable for an atheist, you ought to step into our shoes for a day. Of course, I have other reasons for not attending AA, but I really do think if those other reasons were gone the religious aspect would still be upsetting enough to seek other methods.
The book is nothing like religious doctrine at all, it does not espouse to know what is best for the reader. Rather the authors simply lay out their own experience with what has worked in removing their alcoholism.
You're right about one thing though, it is great for those who are willing to believe in some sort of higher power. The collective experience of AA is that this belief has been fundamental in the members stopping drinking. It does not proclaim to be the only way to obtain that goal.
As far as Bill W goes, who gives a ****, he was a drunk just like me and millions of others. He was womanizer, selfish, and made mistakes just like millions of others, but he also found a solution to his drink problem. Personally, I like seeing that he struggled with things, that he was not a saint. It allows me to identify with him. But, he's nothing special, simply another member of the fellowship. And I think the same can be said for many of these celebrity members (Clancy I, etc.) there is nothing special about them, they are simply elements of a set.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 889
AA has helped me. It has allowed me to get over the wreckage of my past. It has shown me how resentments really only hurt me. It has allowed me to look at past shameful events and actions and move past them and step out of isolation. I have FINALLY met people that know the misery of only drinking 3 beers. I have come to understand that when i didn't believe in a power greater than me, I was being led by one (ALCOHOL). I have learned that I can believe in a HP that does not fit the classic mold of religion.
It has taken a hopeless, miserable little boy and turned him into a man.
It works for me and will work for others. The grouch and brainstorm are not for me. I wish you the best.
Best of luck!
It has taken a hopeless, miserable little boy and turned him into a man.
It works for me and will work for others. The grouch and brainstorm are not for me. I wish you the best.
Best of luck!
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
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Please chill and follow this Thank you
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Please chill and follow this
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 333
Blimey - did I miss something overnight? I am sorry I started this - I was genuinely interested in what others who use/don't use AA thought of the quite frankly, vitriolic videos on youtube. I apologise if I've stirred up something unpleasant. I'll keep anything controversial in my own mind from now on. For the record, I have made my own mind up about AA and nothing i see outside of my groups will alter that. Apologies again.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Irish
Posts: 552
AA was the only place I could go to ,to help me stay Sober.I could never afford to attend Counciling weekly.
Over a period of time the obsession for Alcohol left........this to me was my Spiritual Experience.
In AA I was asked to believe in a Power Greater than myself,anything............ Chair,Moon,Stars,Universe,God,Yawa...........Just put a convenient name on it.
In AA that Convenient name is GOD...........mabie it should be.......AIR,OCEAN,Electricity...these are Powers Greater than me?
I was never turned away from AA after a slip.AA in Self Supporting.There are no Bosses only Trusted Servents.The Boss is an Inteligence that is far more Inteligent than anyone on the Earth could Comprehend.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
Coolmummy, don't feel bad about asking a very good question that started a conversation. You are not responsible for the rudeness of other posters.
To answer your question more specifically I can tell you that AA's roots were specifically Christian as that was the worldview of the individuals that influenced it's development and did the sacrificial hard work in its infancy that insured it's success.
While most people only know of Dr. Bob and Bill there were dozens of other people around the globe (from Europe to the Far East) that had some influence on the philosophies and belief systems that eventually evolved into AA. The actual history is quite fascinating and in my opinion there are countless "divine appointments" that had even one not happened then AA might not be a topic on this forum.
As we all experienced in this thread this subject is a volatile one as "religion" always is... because if God does in fact exist then bigger questions loom as to what are responsibilities are to our creator. It is an important subject that invokes a lot of passion and too often it turns heated instead of being a thoughtful and polite discussion between adults.
We are all products of what we have been culturally taught. My father was a mean drunk who swore he had entered into a pact with Lucifer himself. I can remember vividly being terrified as a small child during a violent thunderstorm as he screamed and shook his fist at the ceiling of our home daring God to hit him with lightning if He existed. I was horrified that I half wanted there to be a God and for Him to go ahead and kill my abusive father. Needless to say my father didn't die that fateful night and to the very day he died of acute alcoholism he talked about his "pact with the devil" and denied the existence of God.
Despite my father's other shortcomings I fully believed he had been right about his atheism and until the age of 22 I would argue and debate that position with anyone who cared to engage in the discussion. At 22 I began personally researching all religions and searching out the true meaning of life. My viewpoint changed and swung the other way and later, I became a severe critic of AA because it didn't name it's Higher Power with the name that I now believed was the God of the Universe!
I included that in my post to suggest that each of us has changed our position on various subjects as we matured or researched the matter. We all view life through the lenses of our own experience and what we have been taught culturally. For those of us in the West we have all been fed a steady diet of belief systems from our government influenced school systems, a biased media as well as our own families.
Newsflash. There may or may not actually be a God but if there is one He or She is not posting on this thread so lets for a moment all consider that we may not be right on this vast and deep subject! As an atheist turned believer I have worn both shoes and could easily debate either point and so I will present both sides with the pros and cons of both!
I do believe that the Divine Creator or Higher Power if you will did bring together two very different men as well as some other very important players one fateful day that sparked the beginning of what was to become AA.
Dr. Bob and Bill were not two guys that would sought eachother out and become lifelong friends ... they were very different in their personalities, upbringing, religious viewpoints and even later what they thought AA should look like. It has been said and I believe it is true that had Bill been the only founder of AA it would have been franchised and for profit and Had it been only Dr. Bob as the founder it never would have left Ohio.
Bill, for all of his personal weaknesses is the force that grew AA into an international organization bringing hope and help to countless millions. Dr. Bob and other key old timers kept Bill from spinning completely out of control and AA on course. Dr. Bob and most of the founding members were as most in society were devoted Christians that practiced their faith and their HP was Jesus Christ.
Bill was not so much although he did publically make a profession of faith in early sobriety... he was no bible thumper and he fully realized that there were many like himself that would be turned off by the heavy Christian influence of early AA.
Interestingly, the early Ohio AA groups that were heavily Christian in emphasis had documented success rates of 75% to 92% while the New York groups had much lower success rates. Early AA was much different than what we are used to now... you had to be "qualified" in that you were willing to do whatever it took and were truly desperate to stop drinking. That you were willing to follow the directions of AA and to do the steps. Once you completed the steps you were issued a "card" (card carrying member of AA was very real) and then you immersed yourself in the AA lifestyle. Sponsors chose sponsees rather than the other way around. AA was much more controlling on its members who almost all were stage 4 alcoholics and believed to be without hope of ever recovering by society's standards.
The core essentials of early AA were the tenets learned in the Oxford Group that members should faithfully practice the 4 absolutes of Absolute Honesty, Unselfishness, Purity, Love. Members should also spend significant quality time with God in prayer and meditation fully expecting God to communicate to them...journaling was used by many and encouraged as a way for God to speak to each person. (Many journals have survived and have been reproduced including journals by both Dr. Bob's and Bill's wives). Members also spent a great deal of time with other members fellowshipping at eachothers homes developing a sense of community and support for one another.
In time, as AA continued to grow and diversify tensions developed between the deep Christian influence within some groups while others were much less so and it was decided that AA was meant to include all who wanted to stop drinking and belief in a personal God should not be a prerequisite. This actually was a point of contention and debate during that time period and while institutional AA tries to distance itself from its Christian roots for obvious reasons the proof is there and has been well documented in recent years by many historians.
So either AA is a cosmic accident or it was designed and our Creator in His wisdom put together two very different and flawed human beings (throughout the Bible God often used the weakest people to bring His plans to fruition) to work out and bring AA to life.
Personally I came to believe that the creator is the God of the Bible and that He is Love and AA is an expression of that love to those who society has cast off and forgotten. He doesn't care if you know His name or even if you have cursed His name as my father did repeatedly... if you call out for help He will provide a way. If someone wants to pursue a course of recovery that is based on the support and socialization of AA it could possibly work for you and most groups will welcome that person with open arms.
However, historically those who have had the best results statistically do come to believe in a HP and do surrender their life to that HP. Additonally, they do actively pursue growing as a person through the 12 steps (4 absolutes) and do seek out the will of their HP in their own lives. This is the "path" that is suggested that we follow...
Someone once told me that AA is a spiritual kindegarten and that makes sense to me. Even if you reject the idea of a creator who can argue against the 4 absolutes? What a better world or even better website if we all practiced those ideals before we lashed out at oneanother because we may not agree on every little thing?
I have to believe that if any person sincerely seeks the answers to their personal questions about these matters their HP will make sure that they find them in due course... even in a very broken, very flawed world! And AA is very human, very flawed and broken just like you and I.
Take what you want... leave the rest and put down those pitchforks and pick up a plowshare
To answer your question more specifically I can tell you that AA's roots were specifically Christian as that was the worldview of the individuals that influenced it's development and did the sacrificial hard work in its infancy that insured it's success.
While most people only know of Dr. Bob and Bill there were dozens of other people around the globe (from Europe to the Far East) that had some influence on the philosophies and belief systems that eventually evolved into AA. The actual history is quite fascinating and in my opinion there are countless "divine appointments" that had even one not happened then AA might not be a topic on this forum.
As we all experienced in this thread this subject is a volatile one as "religion" always is... because if God does in fact exist then bigger questions loom as to what are responsibilities are to our creator. It is an important subject that invokes a lot of passion and too often it turns heated instead of being a thoughtful and polite discussion between adults.
We are all products of what we have been culturally taught. My father was a mean drunk who swore he had entered into a pact with Lucifer himself. I can remember vividly being terrified as a small child during a violent thunderstorm as he screamed and shook his fist at the ceiling of our home daring God to hit him with lightning if He existed. I was horrified that I half wanted there to be a God and for Him to go ahead and kill my abusive father. Needless to say my father didn't die that fateful night and to the very day he died of acute alcoholism he talked about his "pact with the devil" and denied the existence of God.
Despite my father's other shortcomings I fully believed he had been right about his atheism and until the age of 22 I would argue and debate that position with anyone who cared to engage in the discussion. At 22 I began personally researching all religions and searching out the true meaning of life. My viewpoint changed and swung the other way and later, I became a severe critic of AA because it didn't name it's Higher Power with the name that I now believed was the God of the Universe!
I included that in my post to suggest that each of us has changed our position on various subjects as we matured or researched the matter. We all view life through the lenses of our own experience and what we have been taught culturally. For those of us in the West we have all been fed a steady diet of belief systems from our government influenced school systems, a biased media as well as our own families.
Newsflash. There may or may not actually be a God but if there is one He or She is not posting on this thread so lets for a moment all consider that we may not be right on this vast and deep subject! As an atheist turned believer I have worn both shoes and could easily debate either point and so I will present both sides with the pros and cons of both!
I do believe that the Divine Creator or Higher Power if you will did bring together two very different men as well as some other very important players one fateful day that sparked the beginning of what was to become AA.
Dr. Bob and Bill were not two guys that would sought eachother out and become lifelong friends ... they were very different in their personalities, upbringing, religious viewpoints and even later what they thought AA should look like. It has been said and I believe it is true that had Bill been the only founder of AA it would have been franchised and for profit and Had it been only Dr. Bob as the founder it never would have left Ohio.
Bill, for all of his personal weaknesses is the force that grew AA into an international organization bringing hope and help to countless millions. Dr. Bob and other key old timers kept Bill from spinning completely out of control and AA on course. Dr. Bob and most of the founding members were as most in society were devoted Christians that practiced their faith and their HP was Jesus Christ.
Bill was not so much although he did publically make a profession of faith in early sobriety... he was no bible thumper and he fully realized that there were many like himself that would be turned off by the heavy Christian influence of early AA.
Interestingly, the early Ohio AA groups that were heavily Christian in emphasis had documented success rates of 75% to 92% while the New York groups had much lower success rates. Early AA was much different than what we are used to now... you had to be "qualified" in that you were willing to do whatever it took and were truly desperate to stop drinking. That you were willing to follow the directions of AA and to do the steps. Once you completed the steps you were issued a "card" (card carrying member of AA was very real) and then you immersed yourself in the AA lifestyle. Sponsors chose sponsees rather than the other way around. AA was much more controlling on its members who almost all were stage 4 alcoholics and believed to be without hope of ever recovering by society's standards.
The core essentials of early AA were the tenets learned in the Oxford Group that members should faithfully practice the 4 absolutes of Absolute Honesty, Unselfishness, Purity, Love. Members should also spend significant quality time with God in prayer and meditation fully expecting God to communicate to them...journaling was used by many and encouraged as a way for God to speak to each person. (Many journals have survived and have been reproduced including journals by both Dr. Bob's and Bill's wives). Members also spent a great deal of time with other members fellowshipping at eachothers homes developing a sense of community and support for one another.
In time, as AA continued to grow and diversify tensions developed between the deep Christian influence within some groups while others were much less so and it was decided that AA was meant to include all who wanted to stop drinking and belief in a personal God should not be a prerequisite. This actually was a point of contention and debate during that time period and while institutional AA tries to distance itself from its Christian roots for obvious reasons the proof is there and has been well documented in recent years by many historians.
So either AA is a cosmic accident or it was designed and our Creator in His wisdom put together two very different and flawed human beings (throughout the Bible God often used the weakest people to bring His plans to fruition) to work out and bring AA to life.
Personally I came to believe that the creator is the God of the Bible and that He is Love and AA is an expression of that love to those who society has cast off and forgotten. He doesn't care if you know His name or even if you have cursed His name as my father did repeatedly... if you call out for help He will provide a way. If someone wants to pursue a course of recovery that is based on the support and socialization of AA it could possibly work for you and most groups will welcome that person with open arms.
However, historically those who have had the best results statistically do come to believe in a HP and do surrender their life to that HP. Additonally, they do actively pursue growing as a person through the 12 steps (4 absolutes) and do seek out the will of their HP in their own lives. This is the "path" that is suggested that we follow...
Someone once told me that AA is a spiritual kindegarten and that makes sense to me. Even if you reject the idea of a creator who can argue against the 4 absolutes? What a better world or even better website if we all practiced those ideals before we lashed out at oneanother because we may not agree on every little thing?
I have to believe that if any person sincerely seeks the answers to their personal questions about these matters their HP will make sure that they find them in due course... even in a very broken, very flawed world! And AA is very human, very flawed and broken just like you and I.
Take what you want... leave the rest and put down those pitchforks and pick up a plowshare
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by UniqueNewYork
How is it Christianity if Jesus is never mentioned
Oh yea I went to an AA meeting last night. I just wanted to see some people I knew from my first go at sobriety. I was welcomed in. I am not gonna beat up on AA I just don't see it as "secular".
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 323
Originally Posted by Stang
Well I'm thinking of all the times I've said "The Lords Prayer" and "The Serenity Prayer". A lot of the meetings in this area are held in churches so that is where I get the thought from.
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Some groups do rent space for their meetings on different relligions property.
Some groups do not.
That has nothing to to do with anything.
No one in AA has ever told me to only date or hang out with anyone.
With sobriety....common sense returned and I don't choose to have toxic people in my
life regardless of anything else.
there are always some people who choose to be negetive about whatever.
I don't hang out with them either. It's a waste of my time.
AA 's program of recovery is all about useing the AA Steps to benefit your future
If you don't want to do that....it's up to you.
Hope everyone is enjoying another day of recovery....
.
Some groups do not.
That has nothing to to do with anything.
No one in AA has ever told me to only date or hang out with anyone.
With sobriety....common sense returned and I don't choose to have toxic people in my
life regardless of anything else.
there are always some people who choose to be negetive about whatever.
I don't hang out with them either. It's a waste of my time.
AA 's program of recovery is all about useing the AA Steps to benefit your future
If you don't want to do that....it's up to you.
Hope everyone is enjoying another day of recovery....
.
Last edited by CarolD; 03-27-2011 at 08:20 AM.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
a lot of the meetings are held in churches because they open their doors to groups that wish to meet, and because they are supportive of 12-step groups.
there is never an affiliation with the particular church that is housing the meeting.
i think you hear a lot of "Lord's prayer" in meetings because in western culture, christianity is dominant. go to the business meeting when your a.a. group holds them, and express your opposition to saying this. that's what we did and now it is not said.
"cult" is defined as a religious organization. it does not apply here.
"god" is a difficult concept for many. it takes a lot of time, processing, and pondering, to come to a "god of your understanding". for me, the higher power that works, is simply the universe and all that entails.
there is never an affiliation with the particular church that is housing the meeting.
i think you hear a lot of "Lord's prayer" in meetings because in western culture, christianity is dominant. go to the business meeting when your a.a. group holds them, and express your opposition to saying this. that's what we did and now it is not said.
"cult" is defined as a religious organization. it does not apply here.
"god" is a difficult concept for many. it takes a lot of time, processing, and pondering, to come to a "god of your understanding". for me, the higher power that works, is simply the universe and all that entails.
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,830
My opinion? AA is a spiritual program with many religious members. The program is not in the members but in the steps. I've encountered some members I could not tolerate cause they shoved their religious beliefs down my throat. I just ignore those members. 'Nuff said.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by Che
I think the main criticism people have with AA is "Why does it have to be bundled with religion?" Why can't it just be about recovery, instead of including God and basically excluding non-Christians?
I do, however, question why many people pretend that AA did not evolve directly out of the Christian Evangelical Oxford Group.
Why do people pretend that the doctrinal literature of AA does not explicitly and clearly reveal its Christian foundation, when anyone who is familiar with Christianity can easily see that?
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