Coolmummy

Well until midnight on youtube - watching (don't ask me how I found them) an awful lot of videos denouncing AA as a cult, saying the 12 steps and the entire concept of AA is entrapping people, that Bill W didn't have a 'spiritual experience' but waa tripping on LSD, that he was an unpleasant, corrupt and faithless man, who, on his deathbed was begging for a drink; that AA indoctrinates, is totally religious and turns people away from family and friends! I am a recent convert to AA, and personally find that, as an intelligent and open minded person, I am being helped by the ideology and if i find it in anyway different, I will step out. I am genuinely interested in what other people think of such opinions though - Thoughts?

Stang

I left AA because of certian things involving the steps I just don't want to do. I also feel like it IS a Christian organization and they should be up front about that. We said " The Lords Prayer" and "The serenity Prayer" at every meeting. If that's not Christian I don't know what is.
I will say that it has been a Godsend to a lot of alcoholics. You can go to the meetings and discuss your problem with people who have been there. Most folk only want to talk about how much "fun" alcohol is. You'll just get a beer joke or some smartass remark from them if you talk about alcoholism. It is not a "cult" :rotfxko I can assure you nobody will force you to stay involved with AA . The fellowship is great, and they sponsor social events minus the liquor.
I've seen those videos. You'll notice a handful of people with an axe to grind post about 90% of them. I recomend asking yourself " is AA working for me". If the answer is yes then keep it up.

Dee74

People put a lot of stuff on youtube, and the internet in general...but that doesn't make it true CM.

Personally I've seen AA help a lot of people. It's saved the lives of some of my best friends - and thats the evidence I'd rather look at....

D

ste

I'm not an AA person, but have never heard of a "cult" that doesn't fleece you for money. Don't think LSD was yet available in Bill's day.

Coolmummy

Oh I totally agree Dee, I am extremely open minded about everything and it was interesting to watch this stuff especially as it was clear that the person posting them had a really strong hatred for aa, but no real explanation why - I also disagree with some of the more 'quasi religious' elements Stang, and am able to let those go over my head to a point. I do like the social aspect too. What baffled me about these videos is that I really don't get the 'you have to abandon your family and friends' 'you will die if you drink' etc in meetings here. Is this a USA thing? All of my AA acquaintances wouldn't dream of making anyone turn against family or friends.

Coolmummy

Ste - it was supposed to be belladonna he took, but LSD was in its early infancy for sure in the 30's. The videos did say that AA takes money - the 'pot' at the end of the meetings? Yup, my £1 is totally bankrupting me each time

billsaintjames

I've never attended an AA meeting, though I have listened to an audio version of the 4th Edition of the Big Book. It has been a great help and inspiration, and honestly, none of those revelations about Bill bother me. The fact that I and countless others have been helped through an effort made by him is all that matters.

Squizz

Nope. Hate to break it to ya' bud, but Bill DID in fact use LSD in the 1950's. It was being used to treat alcoholism, in the hope that it would produce a spiritual experience in the user.

So therefore, I don't know if we can say Bill was even entirely sober since 1935 or whatever it was. It's even in AA literature. Which book I forget, but it is in there. (It might be "As Bill Sees It" or something along those lines.)

Squizz

It's because these idiots have never even been to an AA meeting before. It's VERY evident. They're talking about something which they have no clue about. Nobody has ever tried to turn me against my family at AA. Quite the opposite actually.

Squizz

He did take belladonna. But he also took LSD in the mid-50's! I was BAFFLED when I read that myself! Picturing Bill W. trippin' on LSD was actually quite comical, quite frankly. That being said, I don't know if we can say Bill was truly sober since the mid-30's.

I'm pretty sure it was in the book "Came to Believe" come to think of it.

Coolmummy

Thanks for that Squizz - really useful stuff there! I never said I wanted to believe any of the wierdo videos, just wanted everyone elses opinions on them. Imagine if you're trying to decide if AA can help and you come across them!! bad times.

Squizz

Yeah, but any half-way sane person wouldn't just base their opinion on what some scrub posted on YouTube. Most people are smarter than that. (I hope!)

It's bs propaganda that keeps people from attending AA and possibly getting sober.

Zebra1275

I've read that Bill W. tried LSD in the late 50's, so what?

In the 1950s and 1960s LSD was used in psychiatry, and there were many studies done in the 1950's where LSD was used to treat alcoholism. From what I've read Bill W. was trying to see if this could be part of the spiritual experience for alcoholics. It was legally available in the United States at that time.

Anyway, what's this got to do with me?

I attend AA meetings and find them useful in maintaining my sobriety. Should I stop going?

UniqueNewYork

I actually believe in carrying a dynamic view of AA. What I mean is "take the good leave the bad".

These are the people and behaviors that make AA at times feel like a cult:

1. People who want to be a superstar in AA instead of coming to help themselves and others.

2. People who use others. I.e. maybe they have you drive their friend, clean their house, mow their lawn, whatever, and call it service work, when its very self serving. Another version is when they have you perform service work for another person, but are sure to interject to let the other person know it was their idea you do this and they set it up.

3. People who become this hardliner that will not date or make social contacts outside of the AA program. This is not dedication to AA; this shows your social skills are underdeveloped and your way of thinking is closed off if you honestly think you need to go the rest of your life only interacting with AAers.

4. People who want to define whether you are an alcoholic instead of letting you decide for yourself or being helpful in an inquisitive way such as socratic method to lead you to a discovery. I.e. "Do this or you're not an alcoholic!" I.e. "You aren't an alcoholic because blah blah blah"


This was in a youtube description / comments and is a good summary of why AA is not a cult unless you let it be:

"..why is evryone scared of an group that wont allow any assets, any leader, and any "God" mentioned is based on millions of members personal description.They dont go door to door, they wont even talk to you unless you ask,.Then you do steps which pretty much just say admit once you take a drink you cant control how much youll take, get rid of your hate, say sorry to people,and help a drunk if he asks. they stay sober but getting out of themselves and helping.Bill wasnt a leade he waas member #1s"

Hollyanne

I think it is hilarious!
But very sad at the same time, because people ARE influenced by crackpots.
What "normal" person would get their knickers all up in a bundle about a group that has got and kept thousands sober? Why would it bother people so much? Do these same people target Vegetarians? Gymrats? Avid cyclists? Ecowarriors?

Let's see, AA is free. It encourages people to look inward for the source of their discontent. It encourages thinking of others and helping others and selflessness.
It encourages fellowship and support of fellow alcoholics. It also, quite rightly tries to concentrate first and foremost on alcoholism. To try and fix every problem at once is discouraged in any situation. For example, if a multi car pileup occurs on the highway, and the emergency crews arrive. They quickly assess the situation and then concentrate on preventing more harm? Stop oncoming traffic, put out fires, keep people out of the accident scene? They do not run willy-nilly from one casualty to another.

I think, if people are standing on their heads eating bugs and it keeps them sober, good luck to them!

LexieCat

I am a huge believer in AA, but I find myself reading/watching some of the anti-AA stuff (mostly from the "Orange Papers"). It's like listening to the people convinced we never landed on the moon or that Obama wasn't born in the U.S. Nobody, but NOBODY could convince someone with an agenda like that that they might be mistaken.

I am always ready to listen to and to discuss thoughtful, legitimate criticisms of AA. Nothing is perfect. And, because it is made up of human beings, there are individual members who bring discredit on AA. HOWEVER, AA is fortunately much bigger than the individuals that make it up.

A few things that are not legitimate accusations: that it is a cult, that it harms more people than it helps, that it encourages people to separate from their loved ones. Criticisms of Bill, personally, are largely matters of interpretation. He wasn't perfect, he committed acts of marital infidelity, he did experiment with LSD back when it was being looked at for its possible therapeutic effects--I don't believe he ever became a "stoner". If the founder's having feet of clay is enough to make you not even consider the value of the resulting program, then you might also want to consider founding your own country because the founders of most nations had similar "issues" in their lives.

Some people will simply not find AA helpful. There are alternatives. I hope everyone finds a way to recover that works for him or her.

CarolD

There is no reason AA needs defending.
There are good reasons to go find out for yourself if you could benefit.

those who choose to not avail themselves of the program
for whatever reason....God speed and farewell....

Me? I have no plans to leave AA Next month I expect to
pick up a medallion to denote 22 years of solid AA recovery.


I so hope everyone finds their way to a healthy purpose and joy filled future.

JohnBarleycorn

Charles Bufe concluded in his book, "AA: Cult or Cure" that there is a *BIG* difference between what he called "communal" AA versus what he called "institutional" AA.

In "communal" AA people choose to go to AA voluntarily, and accept the teachings and methods if they want to, and can leave when they want to.

In "institutional" AA, people end up in a "rehab" (actually a step house) against their will, closed off from the rest of society, are only allowed the Big Book and 12x12 to read, and are browbeaten until they accept that they are "in denial" and "surrender" (actually break down) and accept the steps.

The two are not the same experience.

Coolmummy

I really hope no-one is thinking I agree with what I saw - I also had a look at the 'orange papers' and found myself wondering why someone would go to so much trouble to write so very much, I mean it must have taken days to write all that, to research it, cross reference etc.

JoeStrummer

I think the question of whether AA is effective or not is fair game (and I personally believe that there are many secular, non 12 step programs that are potentially more effective for many of us, primarily because they focus on empowering our sober selves rather than teaching that we are weak and helpless) but the personal life of AA founders is off limits as far as I'm concerned. To me this like digging up dirt and gossip on Martin Luther King rather than focussing on his message and accomplishments. Although AA is not for me, I know people, both personally and on SR, who attribute their sobriety to AA. That alone makes it an important part of the sobriety movement. Gossip does not interest me.