Addiction is a choice
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
Addiction is a choice
Hello to you all
First of all let me say that anyone battling to control their use of any unwanted substance or behaviour has my support and best wishes. Furthermore, I make no moral judgement of those who take drugs - drug taking is a personal choice and I have no agenda against drug takers.
However, I find it disheartening to read of all your stories and the suggetsion of your therapists that your addictions to drugs, alcohol, nicotine, food etc are a true physical disease. They are not; they are choices.
1. Drugs alter the normal processes of neurotransmission and induce plastic changes in the brain; true. But these effects are CAUSES, evidence of what happens after drugs are taken. They are not REASONS for drug use, they do not explain what happened before drugs were taken. If I go to the Artic Circle in the depths of winter and catch pneumonia, this would not mean the decision to go there was a pathalogical choice. Nor does the fact that people die from drinking mean these people are diseased. The disease may develop as a result of the behaviour, but behaviour itself cannot be the disease. Behaviour is something we do, something we reason about; a disease is something that is caused. We cannot think our way into or out of a disease, for this is what makes it a disease. But we can think our way into and out of substance problems. Drinkers can choose to not drink and so become sober; a pneumonia patient cant kill the bacteria by changing his mind. The moral is that neuroimaging the brain during addiction does not and cannot tell us why drugs are being taken. We would have to image the mind to know this.
2. Millions of people stop using drugs as they develop new ways of to deal with life. Nothing genetically has changed; they just have a new focus in life. So if youre looking to stop drinking, for example, dont look inwards to your pharmacology, look outwards to the discrepancy between where you are in life and where you want to be heading.
3. If I held a gun to an alcoholics head and said "take one more drink and Ill shoot", what are they going to do? They'll stop regardless of how much they crave the drink. They stop as a matter of choice, because they have found the necessary motivation to stop! Cancer patients are not so lucky as to be able to change their mind to rid their cancer. Yes, drinkers suffer during the withdrawal phase, but they can always choose to take up drinking again. Or they can choose to persist with abstinence. They can decide if and when the withdrawal and craving is too undearable for them. There is NO evidence that they MUST re-initiate drug using. People take drugs when it makes sense to take drugs; when it stops making sense, they stop. So the answer is to find a way to make drugs not make sense; this has nothing to do with genetics.
4. Is it a coincidence that the people who believe in a disease explanation are more often those who are selling treatment or treatment resources like yourself, or the people seeking explanations for their repeated failures to quit, i.e. those 'buying' treatment? It serves both groups well, financially and psychologically, to have a cognitive investment in the disease theory - if anything, addiction treatment providers and addicts are addicted to the disease theory. In fact it is the widely accepted view that the disease theory is dying its death among the research community, the ones who use scientific investigation to come to their conclusions rather than crude observations of small groups of addicts?
5. Drugs work on the brain, but it is the mind that initiates drug-using behaviour. Please cite one study which pinpoints a pharmacoligical mechanism or brain structure which MAKES people walk to the pub or light a cigarette. Ill save you some time - none exist.
6. People are not robots. The car does not drive the driver and the pencil does not write with the writer. How can one have a disease AND take responsibility for their recovery? This is a contradiction - if one is diseased, they cannot be responsible for how they behave thereafter. If they are responsible for recovery then surely they must be responsible for the 'disease'. He cant be one or the other - either it is a disease that can only be treated with a medical antidote, or he is responsible through his decision making for the development and arrestment of his drug use. Which is it?
7. A disease classification in most pathology textbooks requires an identifiable alteration of bodily tissue, a change in the cells of the body. No such identifiable pathology has ever been found in heavy drinkers or drug users. Thus, they cant be diseases for this very simple fact.
8. Neuroimaging evidence of brain changes with alcohol use is expanding and people take this as evidence of addiction as a disease. But remember, this evidence has only come about this decade and these results/methods are not known/available to the vast majority of the addiction treatment providers around the world. How have these providers been managing to diagnose a disease for the past 60 years without this 'evidence'? In actual fact, the best evidence we have that addiction is a disease continues to be self-reported (e.g. "Doc,I cant stop drinking") and it seems rather oxymoronic to lay claim to a biological (hard science) disease on the basis of extra-scientific data. Furthermore, should a person citing symptoms of diabetes to his physician not be highly suspicious if the physician gives a diagnosis of diabetes and signs him up for treatment without having conducted any physical tests? Why then should millions of drug users believe they have a physical disease called addiction without having had physical tests for a pathology conducted? Even more worryingly, why do millions of treatment providers believe they can correctly diagnose a disease without having tested for one? This why so much myth and misinformation has been spread about addiction - because people make things up or make general assumptions on the basis of a few cases, run with it, and use it to describe addicts the world over. As Ive said, however, such tests wouldnt do much good because there is no evidence of a pharmacological substrate which MAKES drug users take drugs.
9. Most drugs release dopamine in the brain, a release which tells us "oh that was good, Id like some more of that, I'm gonna get more", which is a subjective appraisal of the drug effect. It does not bypass all conscious appraisal to directly trigger involuntary drug-directed behaviour. Behaviour is reasoned, not reflexive. People think about taking drugs, it doesnt just happen to them. Drug users certainly want drugs, but you show me evidence that they NEED drugs. And i return to my point that it is contradictory to suggest a diseased person can change their mind about somethign and absolve themself of the disease - this would mean it was never a disease in the first place. No amount of drug taking can change our brains to the point that we NEED to consume more. There is no evidence of this, nor will there be because drug-taking behaviour is initiated in the mind, not the brain. This should be good news for quitters, though: if you want to be alive in 6 months, this is 100% your choice; if you want to be dead in 6 months this is also 100% your choice. Drugs cannot make you take more drugs. They can make it difficult, but do not confuse difficult with impossible. Dont confuse "couldnt" with "didnt". And dont confuse "need" with "really want". You are responsible for your drug taking future. You are not a robot and taking drugs does not turn you into a robot. You are always human, and drugs cant take away the quality which defines humanity: the ability to reason and make choices.
10. I have no problem with the disease model for actual disease - ones which meet nosological criteria. Addiction doesnt and so has no place in the disease model. End of story until it does meet these criteria.
11. The brain does not become addicted to drugs because it does not think about drugs. The term 'addiction' come from the Latin 'dicere' which means 'to consent to' or 'to say yes to', which implies a volitional choice, which implies conscious thought. The brain is not capable of thought; the mind thinks and so it is the mind that becomes addicted to anything. But a psychic addiction is not a disease of the body, it is merely a disease of the mind, a metaphorical disease. Second, what happens in the brain says nothing about the events which caused them to happen, i.e. why drugs were consumed. These reasons originate in the mind, and though the mind may be influenced by physical feelings and cravings, we again come back to the point that it is the mind that makes good and bad decisions and to put drugs in our body is always decided upon according to how much of the withdrawal experience we want to experience. That people die from drug use is not evidence of a disease, it is evidence of bad decision making, just like deciding not to look left and right before crossing the road often turns out to be a bad decision. To repeat myself from earlier, people take drugs becuase it makes sense for them to do so. When it stops making sense, they stop. This comes from our conscious appraisals, not involuntary reflexes.
If Ive made spelling mistakes here I apologise, I have written this at quite a pace. I could argue several other points but I only have so much energy. I would appreciate some response to this email and would particularly welcome the incontravertible evidence that addiction is a disease. I shall not hold my breath for this evidence though as even the neuroscientific community acknowledges its non-existence as yet.
If you respond please do not take my views as a personal attack and so please do not respond with an attack. My conclusions are based on evidence; proponents of the disease model's beliefs are based on faith, personal beliefs, but not evidence that you can point to. i just want people who are battling substance use problems to know that they have a capicity to control themselves, a capacity which can no amount of alcohol or drugs can take from you. I hope this thread becomes useful to you.
Best,
Christopher
First of all let me say that anyone battling to control their use of any unwanted substance or behaviour has my support and best wishes. Furthermore, I make no moral judgement of those who take drugs - drug taking is a personal choice and I have no agenda against drug takers.
However, I find it disheartening to read of all your stories and the suggetsion of your therapists that your addictions to drugs, alcohol, nicotine, food etc are a true physical disease. They are not; they are choices.
1. Drugs alter the normal processes of neurotransmission and induce plastic changes in the brain; true. But these effects are CAUSES, evidence of what happens after drugs are taken. They are not REASONS for drug use, they do not explain what happened before drugs were taken. If I go to the Artic Circle in the depths of winter and catch pneumonia, this would not mean the decision to go there was a pathalogical choice. Nor does the fact that people die from drinking mean these people are diseased. The disease may develop as a result of the behaviour, but behaviour itself cannot be the disease. Behaviour is something we do, something we reason about; a disease is something that is caused. We cannot think our way into or out of a disease, for this is what makes it a disease. But we can think our way into and out of substance problems. Drinkers can choose to not drink and so become sober; a pneumonia patient cant kill the bacteria by changing his mind. The moral is that neuroimaging the brain during addiction does not and cannot tell us why drugs are being taken. We would have to image the mind to know this.
2. Millions of people stop using drugs as they develop new ways of to deal with life. Nothing genetically has changed; they just have a new focus in life. So if youre looking to stop drinking, for example, dont look inwards to your pharmacology, look outwards to the discrepancy between where you are in life and where you want to be heading.
3. If I held a gun to an alcoholics head and said "take one more drink and Ill shoot", what are they going to do? They'll stop regardless of how much they crave the drink. They stop as a matter of choice, because they have found the necessary motivation to stop! Cancer patients are not so lucky as to be able to change their mind to rid their cancer. Yes, drinkers suffer during the withdrawal phase, but they can always choose to take up drinking again. Or they can choose to persist with abstinence. They can decide if and when the withdrawal and craving is too undearable for them. There is NO evidence that they MUST re-initiate drug using. People take drugs when it makes sense to take drugs; when it stops making sense, they stop. So the answer is to find a way to make drugs not make sense; this has nothing to do with genetics.
4. Is it a coincidence that the people who believe in a disease explanation are more often those who are selling treatment or treatment resources like yourself, or the people seeking explanations for their repeated failures to quit, i.e. those 'buying' treatment? It serves both groups well, financially and psychologically, to have a cognitive investment in the disease theory - if anything, addiction treatment providers and addicts are addicted to the disease theory. In fact it is the widely accepted view that the disease theory is dying its death among the research community, the ones who use scientific investigation to come to their conclusions rather than crude observations of small groups of addicts?
5. Drugs work on the brain, but it is the mind that initiates drug-using behaviour. Please cite one study which pinpoints a pharmacoligical mechanism or brain structure which MAKES people walk to the pub or light a cigarette. Ill save you some time - none exist.
6. People are not robots. The car does not drive the driver and the pencil does not write with the writer. How can one have a disease AND take responsibility for their recovery? This is a contradiction - if one is diseased, they cannot be responsible for how they behave thereafter. If they are responsible for recovery then surely they must be responsible for the 'disease'. He cant be one or the other - either it is a disease that can only be treated with a medical antidote, or he is responsible through his decision making for the development and arrestment of his drug use. Which is it?
7. A disease classification in most pathology textbooks requires an identifiable alteration of bodily tissue, a change in the cells of the body. No such identifiable pathology has ever been found in heavy drinkers or drug users. Thus, they cant be diseases for this very simple fact.
8. Neuroimaging evidence of brain changes with alcohol use is expanding and people take this as evidence of addiction as a disease. But remember, this evidence has only come about this decade and these results/methods are not known/available to the vast majority of the addiction treatment providers around the world. How have these providers been managing to diagnose a disease for the past 60 years without this 'evidence'? In actual fact, the best evidence we have that addiction is a disease continues to be self-reported (e.g. "Doc,I cant stop drinking") and it seems rather oxymoronic to lay claim to a biological (hard science) disease on the basis of extra-scientific data. Furthermore, should a person citing symptoms of diabetes to his physician not be highly suspicious if the physician gives a diagnosis of diabetes and signs him up for treatment without having conducted any physical tests? Why then should millions of drug users believe they have a physical disease called addiction without having had physical tests for a pathology conducted? Even more worryingly, why do millions of treatment providers believe they can correctly diagnose a disease without having tested for one? This why so much myth and misinformation has been spread about addiction - because people make things up or make general assumptions on the basis of a few cases, run with it, and use it to describe addicts the world over. As Ive said, however, such tests wouldnt do much good because there is no evidence of a pharmacological substrate which MAKES drug users take drugs.
9. Most drugs release dopamine in the brain, a release which tells us "oh that was good, Id like some more of that, I'm gonna get more", which is a subjective appraisal of the drug effect. It does not bypass all conscious appraisal to directly trigger involuntary drug-directed behaviour. Behaviour is reasoned, not reflexive. People think about taking drugs, it doesnt just happen to them. Drug users certainly want drugs, but you show me evidence that they NEED drugs. And i return to my point that it is contradictory to suggest a diseased person can change their mind about somethign and absolve themself of the disease - this would mean it was never a disease in the first place. No amount of drug taking can change our brains to the point that we NEED to consume more. There is no evidence of this, nor will there be because drug-taking behaviour is initiated in the mind, not the brain. This should be good news for quitters, though: if you want to be alive in 6 months, this is 100% your choice; if you want to be dead in 6 months this is also 100% your choice. Drugs cannot make you take more drugs. They can make it difficult, but do not confuse difficult with impossible. Dont confuse "couldnt" with "didnt". And dont confuse "need" with "really want". You are responsible for your drug taking future. You are not a robot and taking drugs does not turn you into a robot. You are always human, and drugs cant take away the quality which defines humanity: the ability to reason and make choices.
10. I have no problem with the disease model for actual disease - ones which meet nosological criteria. Addiction doesnt and so has no place in the disease model. End of story until it does meet these criteria.
11. The brain does not become addicted to drugs because it does not think about drugs. The term 'addiction' come from the Latin 'dicere' which means 'to consent to' or 'to say yes to', which implies a volitional choice, which implies conscious thought. The brain is not capable of thought; the mind thinks and so it is the mind that becomes addicted to anything. But a psychic addiction is not a disease of the body, it is merely a disease of the mind, a metaphorical disease. Second, what happens in the brain says nothing about the events which caused them to happen, i.e. why drugs were consumed. These reasons originate in the mind, and though the mind may be influenced by physical feelings and cravings, we again come back to the point that it is the mind that makes good and bad decisions and to put drugs in our body is always decided upon according to how much of the withdrawal experience we want to experience. That people die from drug use is not evidence of a disease, it is evidence of bad decision making, just like deciding not to look left and right before crossing the road often turns out to be a bad decision. To repeat myself from earlier, people take drugs becuase it makes sense for them to do so. When it stops making sense, they stop. This comes from our conscious appraisals, not involuntary reflexes.
If Ive made spelling mistakes here I apologise, I have written this at quite a pace. I could argue several other points but I only have so much energy. I would appreciate some response to this email and would particularly welcome the incontravertible evidence that addiction is a disease. I shall not hold my breath for this evidence though as even the neuroscientific community acknowledges its non-existence as yet.
If you respond please do not take my views as a personal attack and so please do not respond with an attack. My conclusions are based on evidence; proponents of the disease model's beliefs are based on faith, personal beliefs, but not evidence that you can point to. i just want people who are battling substance use problems to know that they have a capicity to control themselves, a capacity which can no amount of alcohol or drugs can take from you. I hope this thread becomes useful to you.
Best,
Christopher
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 29
To be honest I'm too sleepy to give this a good read since it's studded with lots of high level thought.
But this part:
I agree with this. I can't imagine why one could not completely change where they focus their energies and hence change what commands their behavior.
But this part:
2. Millions of people stop using drugs as they develop new ways of to deal with life. Nothing genetically has changed; they just have a new focus in life. So if youre looking to stop drinking, for example, dont look inwards to your pharmacology, look outwards to the discrepancy between where you are in life and where you want to be heading.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Well, quite a lot of stuff there.
You seem to have a lot of faith in science. That's good I guess... I like science.
So you feel that in 2009 since science has no nice easily reproduced test that will objectively make the diagnosis of addiction then it is not a disease?
Well OK...
Why does it matter to you? What is the point of your post?
If you read some posts... you'll see most of us don't really care whether or not it is a disease in your context of the word. It is, it just.... is.
Since there is no proof that it is in fact "is".... then we can all just go home, turn on something else and live our happy lives without any need for AA, NA or any kind of recovery. Awesome. Jeez, and to think I've wasted all this time at AA and SR...
I think I am gonna go pick blackberries with my wife....
Mark
You seem to have a lot of faith in science. That's good I guess... I like science.
So you feel that in 2009 since science has no nice easily reproduced test that will objectively make the diagnosis of addiction then it is not a disease?
Well OK...
Why does it matter to you? What is the point of your post?
If you read some posts... you'll see most of us don't really care whether or not it is a disease in your context of the word. It is, it just.... is.
Since there is no proof that it is in fact "is".... then we can all just go home, turn on something else and live our happy lives without any need for AA, NA or any kind of recovery. Awesome. Jeez, and to think I've wasted all this time at AA and SR...
I think I am gonna go pick blackberries with my wife....
Mark
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
I just drank a half gallon of prune juice and I've decided to make the "choice" to not poop, I've made the decision to use my entire will power on this choice, I'll get back to you to let you know how this experiment with 'will power" and "the power of choice" works out.
If you have a problem with alcohol you are in the right place, if you don't why are you here?
The definition of a "disease" in the dictionary is "an unhealthy condition of the mind and body with recognizable signs and symptoms" and that's hard to argue with, it's NOT a get out of jail free card to those of us that have recovered, I mean this is a great topic and discussion but it's better to have with your mates over a few pints at the local pub then in an alcoholism forum with people trying to get a handle on their alcoholism.
If you have a problem with alcohol you are in the right place, if you don't why are you here?
The definition of a "disease" in the dictionary is "an unhealthy condition of the mind and body with recognizable signs and symptoms" and that's hard to argue with, it's NOT a get out of jail free card to those of us that have recovered, I mean this is a great topic and discussion but it's better to have with your mates over a few pints at the local pub then in an alcoholism forum with people trying to get a handle on their alcoholism.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
Thank you Mark
The point of the post is to emphasise one point which has profound implications for people trying to give up. This is: if you are not diseased, you have complete control over your life. Alcohol may give the illusion that you are not in control, but this is all it is - an illusion. If you are not diseased, you dont have to ask God to give you strength to overcome this disease. You have everything you need in your head already. Im not saying you shouldnt be religious, thats a personal choice. But its not a cure for alcoholism, precisely there is no disease to be cured.
Also, Im not necessarily a believer in science or religion: Im just summing up the evidence and the logic. And that there is no quick reproducable test isnt the point; the point is that no such test can exist because drug use is initiated in the mind, not the brain. Its like looking for apples in the orange grove.
I also acknowledge your point that most people dont care if it is a disease or a choice, for them its just a problem. My point is that, knowing its a choice gives people more hope going forward: if they choose life thats what theyll get; if they choose drink thats what theyll do. There is great mental peace in knowing that you are in control.
Enjoy them blackberries Mark.
C
The point of the post is to emphasise one point which has profound implications for people trying to give up. This is: if you are not diseased, you have complete control over your life. Alcohol may give the illusion that you are not in control, but this is all it is - an illusion. If you are not diseased, you dont have to ask God to give you strength to overcome this disease. You have everything you need in your head already. Im not saying you shouldnt be religious, thats a personal choice. But its not a cure for alcoholism, precisely there is no disease to be cured.
Also, Im not necessarily a believer in science or religion: Im just summing up the evidence and the logic. And that there is no quick reproducable test isnt the point; the point is that no such test can exist because drug use is initiated in the mind, not the brain. Its like looking for apples in the orange grove.
I also acknowledge your point that most people dont care if it is a disease or a choice, for them its just a problem. My point is that, knowing its a choice gives people more hope going forward: if they choose life thats what theyll get; if they choose drink thats what theyll do. There is great mental peace in knowing that you are in control.
Enjoy them blackberries Mark.
C
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
Thank you Ago
Digestion is a reflexive action to food/energy intake. If I burn my arm with a lighter it will leave a rash, and no amount of will power will stop this. But luckily for us, there is no pharmacological mechanism in the brain which MAKES anyone drink - it just doesnt exist, and as Ive written to Mark above, it cant exist because drug use is initiated in the mind, not the brain.
To your other point, I am here because people are looking for answers about alcoholism and drug use. So I am in precisely the right place. This doesnt mean my answers are correct, just food for thought. I can only hope that something I post will help someone with their alcohol problem.
All the best Ago.
C
Digestion is a reflexive action to food/energy intake. If I burn my arm with a lighter it will leave a rash, and no amount of will power will stop this. But luckily for us, there is no pharmacological mechanism in the brain which MAKES anyone drink - it just doesnt exist, and as Ive written to Mark above, it cant exist because drug use is initiated in the mind, not the brain.
To your other point, I am here because people are looking for answers about alcoholism and drug use. So I am in precisely the right place. This doesnt mean my answers are correct, just food for thought. I can only hope that something I post will help someone with their alcohol problem.
All the best Ago.
C
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
Thanks, I feel better! Maybe I should take a stab at controlling my drinking again. After all, the first ten thousand times I failed might have been just coincidence.
In a nutshell, Who the hell do you think you're trying to convince?
In a nutshell, Who the hell do you think you're trying to convince?
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Well, she didn't need much help, I just had to help scare a snake that was hanging on a branch where the berries were... pretty cool actually... since she wasn't picking apples I told her there was nothing to worry about, no matter, she wanted it gone.
Serenity. I am in control. In fact I had a recent breakthrough... I really don't have to drink. I have a choice to not drink or drink. I am 52 years old with a scientific education and a reasonably successful career and 4 wonderful children. Now why did it take me so long, so much time, pain, prayer, energy to come to that simple conclusion? I have a choice... you are exactly right. Why was there a time when I didn't know that?
Medical science I think has pretty well concluded that what we call our mind is formed in the synapsis of neurons that are found in the frontal cortex of our brain. Knock out the cortex... no mind... at least one that can communicate, function, reason, whatever...
No test can exist to determine what is in that soup of neurotransmitters... except maybe molecules of serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine. No brain scan for depression, ADHD, alcoholism.... Maybe there are scans that can detect the changes in these neurotransmitters that are the result of depression, ADHD, alcoholism.... But what is there, really.
God? A soul? A mind....
Mark
There is great mental peace in knowing that you are in control.
Medical science I think has pretty well concluded that what we call our mind is formed in the synapsis of neurons that are found in the frontal cortex of our brain. Knock out the cortex... no mind... at least one that can communicate, function, reason, whatever...
No test can exist to determine what is in that soup of neurotransmitters... except maybe molecules of serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine. No brain scan for depression, ADHD, alcoholism.... Maybe there are scans that can detect the changes in these neurotransmitters that are the result of depression, ADHD, alcoholism.... But what is there, really.
God? A soul? A mind....
Mark
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Hi Christopher
Can you give an example of the kind of scenario that may occur after someone, being receptive to what you have posted, has decided that it is a choice and i'm not going to drink/use anymore?
For example say this person has been drinking for 20 years, progressively larger amounts and now drinks daily. Let's say this person is now 40 years old.
I ask this because i want to know your thoughts on how the, soon to be teetotal, individual would be able to keep making the choice not to drink on a daily basis. Also assume that said person has tried on multiple occasions over the 20 years to stop drinking, with little success.
This isn't a trap, i'm interested to see how much thought you have given to this:-)
thanks
Cliff
Can you give an example of the kind of scenario that may occur after someone, being receptive to what you have posted, has decided that it is a choice and i'm not going to drink/use anymore?
For example say this person has been drinking for 20 years, progressively larger amounts and now drinks daily. Let's say this person is now 40 years old.
I ask this because i want to know your thoughts on how the, soon to be teetotal, individual would be able to keep making the choice not to drink on a daily basis. Also assume that said person has tried on multiple occasions over the 20 years to stop drinking, with little success.
This isn't a trap, i'm interested to see how much thought you have given to this:-)
thanks
Cliff
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
Dr Silkworth spent the better part of his career dedicated to alcoholism.
This is Dr Silkworth from The Big Book First Edition.
This is Dr Silkworth from The Big Book First Edition.
I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
Thank you Pinkcuda
My issue is not with who fails and who succeeds - obviously I hope everyone succeeds and gets to experience that "I did it" feeling before falling asleep every night. My issue is how people attribute failures, and Ive written here to suggest to people that they are much more in control of their next move than might have been suggested to them by therapists, other drinkers etc. Im not trying to convince anyone, everyone is free to shoot me down or pat my back.
Thanks for your comments Pinkcuda,
C
My issue is not with who fails and who succeeds - obviously I hope everyone succeeds and gets to experience that "I did it" feeling before falling asleep every night. My issue is how people attribute failures, and Ive written here to suggest to people that they are much more in control of their next move than might have been suggested to them by therapists, other drinkers etc. Im not trying to convince anyone, everyone is free to shoot me down or pat my back.
Thanks for your comments Pinkcuda,
C
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
I can only hope that something I post will help someone with their alcohol problem.
Do you have direct experience with recovering from an alcohol problem?
Are you a Doctor?
Do you work in the field?
To those of us with experience in the field and many of us have actual experience, years and years and years of experience we get "presented' with these "facts" fairly regularly and I have yet to see them help even one person.
I have just never seen telling a person that has lost control of their drinking that it's just a matter of will power actually work nor ever heard of it working.
Possibly you could go down to skid row and find some drunks and present them with your evidence, let me know how many miraculously recover when presented with your clinical studies.
I'd be interested even one single person here read your "thesis" and walked away "cured"
I await the results and will watch this thread
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,493
your beliefs are just that,,,YOURS.however i suffer from a disease that is three fold and no amount of medical science has found a cure for this yet.AA has given me the tools with which to arrest this disease i suffer from on a daily basis.you seem very into reading why not have a look at the research that suggests and is finding out every day more stuff to say that alcoholism is a disease.if not then i suggest you have made up your mind which is fine,but please dont come to a recovery forum where everybody respects everbody elses thoughts and beliefs and try and ram yours down our throat.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 37
there are those who have watched people fixing cars and therefore think they have an idea of how to fix a car, when you've been working in the garage for over ten, twenty, thirty years of fixing cars you know what you're talking about.
medical model = nonsense!
Living it = people who know what they're talking about!
medical model = nonsense!
Living it = people who know what they're talking about!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
Thank you Cliff
When it comes to substance use (and a lot of other voluntary behaviours) you will ALWAYS do what you want to do. Now, some will say that they dont want to drink but then they do drink. But at that moment of drinking, they did want to drink, and many say later that they did actually want to drink and that saying that they didnt was more of a positive thinking exercise - "if I think it enough Ill come to believe it". The point is that you get married because you want to, you divorce becasue you want to, you follow a sports team because you want to. You dont kill anyone becasue you dont want to, you dont eat broccoli becasue you dont want to (who does?).
If you want to drink, you will - instead of having no will power, addicts are often said to have an "iron will" in that they keep doing it in spite of its consequences. Addiction is just a level of dedication and you can have good addictions and bad addictions. You can choose to dedicate yourself to God, to your family, to your work etc...
In answer to what you asked, this person is not genetically different from anyone else who succeeds or fails. He is no more suceptible to alcohol than anyone else. Thats the good news. My suggestion is that he drinks daily because he wants to, even though he'll say he doesnt. If he wants to do something else or finds something he wants to do more, he'll go do that, and maybe he'll find that drinking is getting in the way of the thing he wants to do more. In short, maybe he can find something in his life he wants more than alcohol, somethings he wants to do or feel more? Whatever the case, I wish him all the best.
Thanks Cliff,
C
When it comes to substance use (and a lot of other voluntary behaviours) you will ALWAYS do what you want to do. Now, some will say that they dont want to drink but then they do drink. But at that moment of drinking, they did want to drink, and many say later that they did actually want to drink and that saying that they didnt was more of a positive thinking exercise - "if I think it enough Ill come to believe it". The point is that you get married because you want to, you divorce becasue you want to, you follow a sports team because you want to. You dont kill anyone becasue you dont want to, you dont eat broccoli becasue you dont want to (who does?).
If you want to drink, you will - instead of having no will power, addicts are often said to have an "iron will" in that they keep doing it in spite of its consequences. Addiction is just a level of dedication and you can have good addictions and bad addictions. You can choose to dedicate yourself to God, to your family, to your work etc...
In answer to what you asked, this person is not genetically different from anyone else who succeeds or fails. He is no more suceptible to alcohol than anyone else. Thats the good news. My suggestion is that he drinks daily because he wants to, even though he'll say he doesnt. If he wants to do something else or finds something he wants to do more, he'll go do that, and maybe he'll find that drinking is getting in the way of the thing he wants to do more. In short, maybe he can find something in his life he wants more than alcohol, somethings he wants to do or feel more? Whatever the case, I wish him all the best.
Thanks Cliff,
C
vicariousrising
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Well, I agree with you to a point about it being a choice. I had a choice between getting help for my problem or not.
But I definitely had a physical addiction to alcohol -- real withdrawal symptoms that if I stopped drinking without medical intervention were likely to kill me (this is from my physicians, so I hope that is scientific enough for you.) In fact, alcohol withdrawal is the only drug withdrawal that can kill you, stroke and heart attack being two of the causes, because the body has built a dependency on the drug being in the system. So, yeah, I suppose there is a choice, but it's kind of a limited one. A bit like the proverbial gun to your head.
Still, when I think of my decision to quit drinking, it was not a decision to simply stop my physical addiction. It was a decision to rip open the heart of what had led me down the path to abuse alcohol to begin with. That meant a whole lot more work than the two weeks in detox.
And any time the thought of drinking again even remotely drifts through my head, I believe it is me making a choice between continuing to be mindful and accountable for myself or numbing it all away.
But I definitely had a physical addiction to alcohol -- real withdrawal symptoms that if I stopped drinking without medical intervention were likely to kill me (this is from my physicians, so I hope that is scientific enough for you.) In fact, alcohol withdrawal is the only drug withdrawal that can kill you, stroke and heart attack being two of the causes, because the body has built a dependency on the drug being in the system. So, yeah, I suppose there is a choice, but it's kind of a limited one. A bit like the proverbial gun to your head.
Still, when I think of my decision to quit drinking, it was not a decision to simply stop my physical addiction. It was a decision to rip open the heart of what had led me down the path to abuse alcohol to begin with. That meant a whole lot more work than the two weeks in detox.
And any time the thought of drinking again even remotely drifts through my head, I believe it is me making a choice between continuing to be mindful and accountable for myself or numbing it all away.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 29
I think it's fair to say that alcohol has been proven to be a disease beyond reasonable doubt. The argument that Russ uses to negate existence of disease, because it's mind based,
..is exactly the reason why alcohol is a disease and this argument does not hold. To negate possibility of alcohol being a disease because there's no proverbial "beer tap" in the brain making us drink is to say there's no crazy people in the world, only people pretending to be crazy.
However, I believe one can reach a point of cleansing if he resolves the issues that made him drink in the first place... at least I hope I'm right.
But luckily for us, there is no pharmacological mechanism in the brain which MAKES anyone drink - it just doesnt exist, and as Ive written to Mark above, it cant exist because drug use is initiated in the mind, not the brain.
However, I believe one can reach a point of cleansing if he resolves the issues that made him drink in the first place... at least I hope I'm right.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Why not try volunteering at a local rehab for a few months and actually working with some actual, live alcoholics and addicts if you want to be "helpful".
Maybe experience some of this for yourself instead of reading some book
I have seen many many people die as a direct or indirect result of alcoholism, as well as lose their jobs, families etc. so personally I find this thread in poor taste.
I watch "House" and "ER" on TV, it doesn't make me a doctor
I'd actually suggest also posting your thesis in the "Friends and Family of Alcoholics" section of this forum, I'm sure all of the husbands, wives, siblings and parents of Alcoholics will be interested in your ideas.
BB 1st ed
Maybe experience some of this for yourself instead of reading some book
If any feel that as psychiatrists directing a hospital for alcoholics we appear somewhat sentimental, let them stand with us a while on the firing line, see the tragedies, the despairing wives, the little children; let the solving of these problems become a part of their daily work, and even of their sleeping moments, and the most cynical will not wonder that we have accepted and encouraged this movement. We feel, after many years of experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.
Men have cried out to me in sincere and despairing appeal: "Doctor, I cannot go on like this! I have everything to live for! I must stop, but I cannot! You must help me!"
Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it often is not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach.
I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.
Men have cried out to me in sincere and despairing appeal: "Doctor, I cannot go on like this! I have everything to live for! I must stop, but I cannot! You must help me!"
Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it often is not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach.
I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight.
I watch "House" and "ER" on TV, it doesn't make me a doctor
I'd actually suggest also posting your thesis in the "Friends and Family of Alcoholics" section of this forum, I'm sure all of the husbands, wives, siblings and parents of Alcoholics will be interested in your ideas.
BB 1st ed
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 82
Thank you Charmian and Ago
I very much respect everyone's thoughts on here and other forums. I do not claim to be correct, and realise that there are much smarter people in the world who will wholly disagree with me. And I believe that whatever works for you, run with it even if it is not what I think. It does not matter why you are healthy, just that you are healthy.
I will not say whether I am a doctor, a recovering alcoholic, an academic, a postman or a Democrat. I encourage you to take the content for what it is, not for who said it.
On the issue of experience. Sailors were often thought to be masters at predicting the weather at sea. Out on the high seas they could predict from how cold they felt, how fast the wid was and how dark the clouds above were whether it would be calm or stormy. They could do this with a fairly high precision. Yhen came meteorologists, who didnt need to step out of the room to predict the weather with far greater accuracy than the fishermen who were experiencing the weather. Sometimes it help to looking at the problem from further back. Of course, I may be a recovering alcoholic and also appreciate the value of personal experience.
My point is that everyone is on the same side, focussed on the same problem.
Thanks Charmian and Ago
C
I very much respect everyone's thoughts on here and other forums. I do not claim to be correct, and realise that there are much smarter people in the world who will wholly disagree with me. And I believe that whatever works for you, run with it even if it is not what I think. It does not matter why you are healthy, just that you are healthy.
I will not say whether I am a doctor, a recovering alcoholic, an academic, a postman or a Democrat. I encourage you to take the content for what it is, not for who said it.
On the issue of experience. Sailors were often thought to be masters at predicting the weather at sea. Out on the high seas they could predict from how cold they felt, how fast the wid was and how dark the clouds above were whether it would be calm or stormy. They could do this with a fairly high precision. Yhen came meteorologists, who didnt need to step out of the room to predict the weather with far greater accuracy than the fishermen who were experiencing the weather. Sometimes it help to looking at the problem from further back. Of course, I may be a recovering alcoholic and also appreciate the value of personal experience.
My point is that everyone is on the same side, focussed on the same problem.
Thanks Charmian and Ago
C
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