Dee74

I find these debates dreary to be honest - no matter what the cause, it's what I do about it that counts.

While I appreciate the arguments and the civility here, I do have to question why you'd join up to a recovery site simply to argue tho, Christopher - just sayin'.

happy trails to you
D

ChristopherRuss

Charmian

First, I never said anyones opinions are wrong; by definition opinions cant be wrong. Please check my posts.

Second, its not about me coming on here to rip apart belief structures. I presented my logic and evidence, other people do the same. Why do people attack the opponent rather than the opponents' argument?

Im not sayng anything that hasnt already been said by drinkers, academics and theorists already. Some drinkers believe they are diseased, some believe they are entirely responsible for their state. Are the views of these drinkers credible? Is their experience of recovery by making different choices not valuable? They are as you call them 'expets' are they not?

As Ive said Charmian, whatever works for you is the most important thing. I just prefer to think you are capable of greater things than you might believe right now.

C

ChristopherRuss

Thanks Dee

I posted because I beleive in something different to the dominant view on here, thats all. If you are not interested, fair play to you. I suspect other people who werent interested didnt bother to leave me a message.

Correct, its what you do, not what drink does to you. You control drink, drink does not control you. You just admitted as much.

Best

C

ChristopherRuss

Thanks Suki

You are correct, I just wanted to present a different, more empirically supported and logical way of looking at it. But then again, I suppose spirituality depends on faith, not logic, so logic may not be of interest to many people. People are free to believe what they want. Obviously Id want them to believe they were the masters of their own destiny rather than slaves to the bottle, but that is they CHOICE people must make. I know which one I prefer.

Out of interest, why do you think this thread will be locked down? This isnt Nazi propaganda, its health information.

C

ChristopherRuss

Thank you Kurtrambis

Yes, the authors you cite argue for addiction as a choice. Reading these authors would be a good way to balance the approved reading list of AA - then we can all appreciate the different perspective and come to conclusions that we have arrived at. Its simple, if we only read one side of an argument we will only know one side and so believe in that side. The best explanation are those which stand up to criticism. The disease versus choice debate is like Christians and Muslims arguing the bature of God. Christians who know nothing about Islam and Muslims who know nothing about Christianity are not in a good position to answer the question. To know what alcoholism is, we must first know what it is not.

My point: please read both sides of the argument, get to know what others are saying about your problem.

Glad to hear you are getting better Kurtrambis, keep it going.

C

tyler

Well said Suki!! I see nothing ChristopherRuss has posted that is disrespectful of anyone here in SR. He has stated numerous times that this is his opinion and he only posts it in the hopes that it will help someone. In fact he has been disrespected by numerous members here without responding with the usual "flames" that threads like this usually degrade into.

I've mand my personal beliefs clear on my thoughts on this subject in numerous threads already, I see no need to rehash them here. One thing I will say is I always have to question the judgement of those who have to resort to name calling and "shouting" to make their points.

Welcome to SR ChristopherRuss.

Bamboozle

Easy.


I have depression. It cannot be cured, but I can manage it. Managing it is far better than living in the depths of it. I manage it with medication and therapy.

It comes down to knowing what illness/es one has and taking the responsibility to do what one can to manage the illness/es.


Addiction is an illness/mental disorder. Addiction cannot be decided upon...one has it or one does not. The only thing that can be controlled about addiction is the behavior....but the addiction does not disappear when the behavior is modified.

That's a lot like my depression. The symptoms I have now are much more positive. Despite the positive results, the depression is still there. If I stop managing my depression it will come down on me like several tons of bricks.

vegibean

I just want to point out that there are people in need of support on this/these forum(s), not the other way around. Your posting here seems completely moot and disruptive all at the same time.

"My idea of recovery is better than yours!" (our whatever you call your rant) you seem to be shouting here and the way you go on and on about it, I feel, is quite arrogant on your part.

I don't know who died and made you King of the Hill but I am ducking out as I know there is not nearly enough room for everyone on this board to stand next to you there.

Have fun on your pedestal.

ChristopherRuss

Thank you Bamboozle

First, I am less qualified to talk about depression so Ill stick to addiction. I disagree with one thing. I do not believe addiction cannot be decided upon - if all alcohol disappeared from the planet tomorrow you would want it less and less in time - the addiction goes away. In saying that it never goes away is to contradict what a disease is: a disease like any living bacterial organism needs fuel, a life force; when deprived of this fuel, it dies. So either addiction is a disease in which case it can grow or die like every other disease, or it is not a disease. It would be very disheartening to tell a cancer patient that even though the cancerous tumour is gone, they are still suffer from cancer. So, yes, you can get rid of an addiction by behaving in different ways, just like to can take steps to get rid of the flu.

"the only thing that can be controlled about addiction is the behaviour" - you say only like its a bad thing. It is the behaviour that kills, it is drinking that causes a host of ailments, so Id saying that controlling this is the most important achievement.

I hope you find this useful.

C

ChristopherRuss

Vegibean

Please point out the posts that are arrogant and the posts in which I say my idea of recovery is better than yours. I have said several times that I appreciate everyone's point of view and dont claim to be correct. This is just how I and many other people see things.

Just to be crystal clear, my persepctive does offer support to people. It lets them know that they are masters of their own destiny, that they can achieve things that others have told them are not possible. I believe they are capable of great achievements, and getting there is a matter of making good choices at testing times. If this doesnt sound like a world you'd like to live in then I apologise to you for any offence caused.

Can I just point out that many people find that this forum helps them cope and stay abstinent. That is, somethign they have thought about and chosen to do is helping them control their behaviour. They are all the proof you need that you too can do things to improve your life. But as I say, this world may not be for you.

C

sfgirl

I don't really want to argue about your points or about addiction as a disease concept because it is something that I myself am unresolved on. And frankly, it doesn't much matter to me. However, there are a couple things I want to say.

First, one thing I have really learned is recovery is that no one is ever right. Or put differently everyone is always right. Just because my beliefs and experiences are right, this does not negate your experiences and beliefs. You may argue with this believing that logic is the great equalizer and it can arrive at the absolute truth. But really? Does it? No, it doesn't. If you want to get into a scientific pissing match I can produce for you just as many studies saying the opposite. While there may be certain givens like 2+2=4, even math in the higher levels gets into a fuzzy place. But the real point is that me letting go of being right all the time, me letting go of the importance of being right all the time was so liberating and connecting. I highly suggest looking at that need or at least reexamining the way in which you present your argument.

Second, some of what you have written seems to have posited your argument against the 12-step model. The thing is that the disease model exists in evidenced-based non-12-step scientific literature as well. I just want to make that clear. I am just saying that in case these arguments are a reaction against.

Third, I do wish that you would share some of your real world experiences. Certainly, it is not compelled. However, the reason that SR is so rich is because we do share our experiences. I just find it strange for you to only want to argue theory while keeping your personal experiences close to your chest.

Pinkcuda

Because we have all just been accused of having nothing more than a moral weakness and our addiction and alcoholism is simply a figment of our imagination.
This person is obviously as misinformed on the subject of alcoholism and addiction as a person can get. Yet he/she keeps spouting off the mindless yammering of a troll.

Bamboozle

No, I'd do what I'm doing now...substituting something in place of the alcohol.

I started smoking again the last time I quit drinking.

I have a major addiction problem with food that I have not been able to resolve. I can't make a dent in that one. Truth is...as bad as my alcohol problem is, the food is much harder to "quit".

Many people substitute one thing for another. This has been my personal experience and what I have observed in other people. I have no studies to cite or peer-reviewed journal articles to point you to.

CarolD

Hmm...
SR is a peer support site for anyone interested in recovery
from addiction. We offer information and some members
do share their ideas/opinions/concepts....

Find something that works for YOU and move forward.
It's not necessary to discredit anothers experience
in order to enhance yours.

Thanks everyone for sharing your journey with us


Hi Christopher .....Welcome to SR and our Alcoholism Forum.

ChristopherRuss

Pinkcuda

Im afraid you are wrong. Youll see quite clearly in my first post that I make no moral judgement about the use fo drugs, including alcohol. Taking drugs is a personal choice and I am in no position to say this is right or wrong. I probably do things that other people wouldnt approve of, and I wouldnt expect to be judged on a moral basis. So I hipe you take that back.

Second, all I argue is that no one is or becomes pharmacologically compelled to drink. There is no evidence that this is what happens, scientific or self-reported.

That you are diseased is not a figment of imagination, its just a wrong conclusion. I have never doubted the pain of the withdrawal experience.

Please read my posts carefully.

Bamboozle

Chris, would you like to share your experience?

ChristopherRuss

Sfgirl

Everything youve written I completely agree with.

On the issue of experience. The trouble is, if I say Im a recovered alcoholic then more people will believe my arguments; if I say Ive never spoken to an alcoholic or drunk alcohol in my life, more people wont believe my arguments. Ultimately, people wont believe the content, theyll believe the person. This is half the problem why the disease model is so entrenched: because doctors say so and doctors should be trusted. But remember, doctors are just reading from textbooks and pamphlets, very rarely do they conduct their own controlled research.

Put it like this, what Ive written in my first post is paraphrase of some of the most respected addiction researchers and the idea that addiction is a choice is endorsed by millions of recovered and recovering addicts around the world. Those who do not attend AA tend to believe in their choice more. Most 12-step treatments are based on the disease model and the need for divine intervention, i.e. wilful control and self-sufficiency is futile.

I hope you understand my reasons for keeping certain cards concealed: I want people to read the arguments, not the person. Some will disagree with this, but again, they are entitled to that opinion.

C

ChristopherRuss

Bamboozle

I may disclose more about my situation in the future but for now please see post 77.

In relation to your previous post, I can only say that it pains me to hear what you are going through. I can only say that I believe that you can choose the future you want rather than having the future written for you. Keep us all up to date with your progress.

C

kurtrambis

It doesn't matter what chris is, is argument is rock solid in my opinion. Does a cancer doctor need to have had cancer. Does a psychiatrist need to have suffered schizophrenia.

FightingIrish

So if there is no physical basis for a disease concept, how do I choose to drink safely?

When I have no drinks (i.e., right now), I want no more drinks. When I have one drink, I want 18 more. Why would taking one drink have such a profound effect on my rational and mental decision-making?

Or, as I like to say, "I wish I weren't an alcoholic, because then I could drink all the time."

Tell me about the research you have done that has shown that alcoholics do not metabolize alcohol differently than non-alcoholics?

M