At odds with meetings
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,910
Katie, you know I tell you straight up what I think, so I am asking you to please go back and read some of your threads about this guy you are asking to come stay with you. You are positively seething in those threads because he isn't available to you except on HIS terms and you HATE his gambling issues and his self-centeredness. You used those things as excuses to drink. This is just my opinion, but I think having him in your home 24/7 for a month (or however long) would be a disaster waiting to happen. The better option, in my opinion, would be to get the naltrexone or campral, and continue going to AA or some other face to face support and talking with your therapist. I'm afraid adding this guy full time into the mix is going to hinder your progress more than help. (((HUGS)))
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,141
Originally Posted by suki44883 
Katie, you know I tell you straight up what I think, so I am asking you to please go back and read some of your threads about this guy you are asking to come stay with you. You are positively seething in those threads because he isn't available to you except on HIS terms and you HATE his gambling issues and his self-centeredness. You used those things as excuses to drink. This is just my opinion, but I think having him in your home 24/7 for a month (or however long) would be a disaster waiting to happen. The better option, in my opinion, would be to get the naltrexone or campral, and continue going to AA or some other face to face support and talking with your therapist. I'm afraid adding this guy full time into the mix is going to hinder your progress more than help. (((HUGS)))
I will be calling my pdoc today. I just don't know whether I should ask for Campral or Naltrexone. He likes Campral more, but my OP treatment group seems to think Naltrexone is the way to go. As to the guy moving in, well more than likely he'll decide no, so I won't make an issue of it at this point. I'm using the mish mash approach as to meetings and the like.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Wow! A dysfunctional relationship in early sobriety to solve alcoholism! I wonder why nobody ever thought of that before?
OK. Attention getting sarcasm can be turned off now.
Katie, I'm not going to quote all the examples of you saying basically the same thing. It's a common theme in your posts.
You think you know how to stay sober. Or how you want to stay sober. You have preferences and conditions and your way of doing things. That's the way you want things. And since that is the case, that is exactly what you should do.
The facts, however, are that you have absolutely ZERO idea of how to get and stay sober. It's not a personal insult and it's not meant to belittle you in any way. Look at your own experience. You've spent 30 years doing what you think you should do to stay sober. It hasn't worked. These are undeniable facts of your own experience.
If you can somehow accept the fact that you don't know what you need, you can open the door to real recovery. I wish you the best.
OK. Attention getting sarcasm can be turned off now.
Katie, I'm not going to quote all the examples of you saying basically the same thing. It's a common theme in your posts.
You think you know how to stay sober. Or how you want to stay sober. You have preferences and conditions and your way of doing things. That's the way you want things. And since that is the case, that is exactly what you should do.
The facts, however, are that you have absolutely ZERO idea of how to get and stay sober. It's not a personal insult and it's not meant to belittle you in any way. Look at your own experience. You've spent 30 years doing what you think you should do to stay sober. It hasn't worked. These are undeniable facts of your own experience.
If you can somehow accept the fact that you don't know what you need, you can open the door to real recovery. I wish you the best.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,141
Originally Posted by keithj
Wow! A dysfunctional relationship in early sobriety to solve alcoholism! I wonder why nobody ever thought of that before?
OK. Attention getting sarcasm can be turned off now.
Katie, I'm not going to quote all the examples of you saying basically the same thing. It's a common theme in your posts.
You think you know how to stay sober. Or how you want to stay sober. You have preferences and conditions and your way of doing things. That's the way you want things. And since that is the case, that is exactly what you should do.
The facts, however, are that you have absolutely ZERO idea of how to get and stay sober. It's not a personal insult and it's not meant to belittle you in any way. Look at your own experience. You've spent 30 years doing what you think you should do to stay sober. It hasn't worked. These are undeniable facts of your own experience.
If you can somehow accept the fact that you don't know what you need, you can open the door to real recovery. I wish you the best.
OK. Attention getting sarcasm can be turned off now.
Katie, I'm not going to quote all the examples of you saying basically the same thing. It's a common theme in your posts.
You think you know how to stay sober. Or how you want to stay sober. You have preferences and conditions and your way of doing things. That's the way you want things. And since that is the case, that is exactly what you should do.
The facts, however, are that you have absolutely ZERO idea of how to get and stay sober. It's not a personal insult and it's not meant to belittle you in any way. Look at your own experience. You've spent 30 years doing what you think you should do to stay sober. It hasn't worked. These are undeniable facts of your own experience.
If you can somehow accept the fact that you don't know what you need, you can open the door to real recovery. I wish you the best.
I think I am going to rely on psychopharmacology to solve this one. Truth is, I've never given either Campral or Naltrexone a fair shot and now it is time.
Thanks for your post.
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
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32 years of AA obviously hasn't been the solution for me. The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results - 32 years of this.
But my therapist and therapist keep encouraging me to go to AA. Truth be told, there are very few other options out there. At least where I live. Thanks for your post.
Bottom line is, if that's your attitude towards AA then stay away from AA before you send the wrong message to a newcomer that actually does have the essentials of recovery. (willingness, honesty and an open mind)
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 679
Katie—
From the NIAAA website:
"Contrary to expectations, the researchers found no effect on drinking of the medication acamprosate and no additive benefit from adding acamprosate to naltrexone."
Interesting— so I think maybe more evidence is in favor of naltrexone than Campral (acamprosate is generic of Campral)
see entire article here, talks about effectiveness of naltrexone+alcohol counseling:
Naltrexone or Specialized Alcohol Counseling an Effective Treatment for Alcohol Dependence When Delivered with Medical Management
From the NIAAA website:
"Contrary to expectations, the researchers found no effect on drinking of the medication acamprosate and no additive benefit from adding acamprosate to naltrexone."
Interesting— so I think maybe more evidence is in favor of naltrexone than Campral (acamprosate is generic of Campral)
see entire article here, talks about effectiveness of naltrexone+alcohol counseling:
Naltrexone or Specialized Alcohol Counseling an Effective Treatment for Alcohol Dependence When Delivered with Medical Management
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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OK Katie. Try that and I hope you have some success with it. When your reply was just, "OK, what do you suggest?", I made two phone calls to some guys I know who are networked in CA and AZ that could hook you up with some women in your area that really know how to work the AA program right out of the book. Women that found they had to do it out of the book and not their own way. I have the names and numbers if you ever get interested.
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,910
Katie...when you say "32 years of AA," please be honest. By your own admission you have not been attending AA regularly for 32 years. You've made it very clear that you do not like AA...AA is not for you...etc. If you really, really want to quit drinking, you are going to have to throw everything you have into whatever program you use. So far, it's been one excuse after another as to why this or that just doesn't work for you. Until you get honest with yourself, I can guarantee you that there is nothing out there that will help you. ((((HUGS))))
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Originally Posted by suki44883
Katie...when you say "32 years of AA," please be honest. By your own admission you have not been attending AA regularly for 32 years. You've made it very clear that you do not like AA...AA is not for you...etc. If you really, really want to quit drinking, you are going to have to throw everything you have into whatever program you use. So far, it's been one excuse after another as to why this or that just doesn't work for you. Until you get honest with yourself, I can guarantee you that there is nothing out there that will help you. ((((HUGS))))
For those in AA who have had great results, God Bless 'em. I am not about to attempt to convert anyone to my way of thinking. However, I HAVE tried it and I have not had the same results.
I started this thread with the intent of trying to find a meeting that would work for me. Carol so wisely pointed out that I may fare better via other methods, hence the way this thread has gone. Now I just move on to something else. That's all.
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Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000
All I can say life is great clean and sober if, there's no mental issues to compound the drinking or drug use!!!!
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Part of the problem is getting clean and sober long enough to determine if, there's a need to go to a Dr. for any depression, bipolar disorders or any other maladies.
It's easy to understand why so many people have such a difficult time the first year of so being clean and sober. My emotions were way out of whack. Thank goodness, this came to pass.
It's easy to understand why so many people have such a difficult time the first year of so being clean and sober. My emotions were way out of whack. Thank goodness, this came to pass.
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@Freya
There is a saying in AA
No one is too stupid to get sober in AA but many are "too smart"
it's a common experience, it means the person in question hasn't let go of their "old ideas" enough to grasp the program of Alcoholics Anonymous with the Honesty, Open Mindedness, and Willingness necessary to get sober using the program of AA.
@Katie
I'm not saying AA is the answer for you:
32 years....ouch
brings new meaning to
I'm sorry
The "clinical description" of being "too smart" for AA is found here:
BB 1st ed et al
(edit: I am not saying this applies to Katie, I am saying this is what someone means in AA when they say someone is "too smart" to get sober in AA)
There is a saying in AA
No one is too stupid to get sober in AA but many are "too smart"
it's a common experience, it means the person in question hasn't let go of their "old ideas" enough to grasp the program of Alcoholics Anonymous with the Honesty, Open Mindedness, and Willingness necessary to get sober using the program of AA.
@Katie
I'm not saying AA is the answer for you:
Your candidate may give reasons why he need not follow all of the program. He may rebel at the thought of a drastic housecleaning which requires discussion with other people. Do not contradict such views. Tell him you once felt as he does, but you doubt whether you would have made much progress had you not taken action. On your first visit tell him about the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. If he shows interest, lend him your copy of this book.
Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. Show him how they worked with you. Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if he wants to get well you will do anything to help.
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.
Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. Show him how they worked with you. Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if he wants to get well you will do anything to help.
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.
brings new meaning to
It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will be prejudiced for as long as some of us were.
The "clinical description" of being "too smart" for AA is found here:
One of the chief ways the addiction protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the addict to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of addictive and non-addictive realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that at least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.
The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:
* Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
* My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
* Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.
Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the addict is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his addiction, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.
In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit. This is the basic mindset of "I’ll quit tomorrow" and "If you had the problems I do you’d drink and drug, too!"
The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:
* Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
* My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
* Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.
Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the addict is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his addiction, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.
In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit. This is the basic mindset of "I’ll quit tomorrow" and "If you had the problems I do you’d drink and drug, too!"
(edit: I am not saying this applies to Katie, I am saying this is what someone means in AA when they say someone is "too smart" to get sober in AA)
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Someday you may find more reasons to attend AA meetings than not to attend them. Only then will you begin to benefit from the program. And if some other program works better for you, then great! But it's been 32 years now and you haven't found one yet.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
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Actually, for me, the "too smart" problem was more around the HP issue. Before I came into program, I had kinda gotten myself into the position (just because I was so smart and had been able to get so much mileage out of that in so many areas and with so many things) where I had somehow assumed that if I didn't understand what HP was doing and why and I didn't "get" how it could possibly be "right" and "good," then there was no way it could be "right" or "good" and, therefore, there was no HP. Kinda embarrassing to admit it -- and in my own defense I will say that, at the time, I had never consciously argued it out to myself in that way -- but that was what it was and the effect was the same.
So smart that I assumed that I would understand the mind of God ----- how friggin' stupid (and arrogant!) can one get??????
freya
So smart that I assumed that I would understand the mind of God ----- how friggin' stupid (and arrogant!) can one get??????
freya
I got nothin'
Join Date: Jun 2008
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IMO, I think it's dangerous for people to suggest that one must have some amount of sober time before determining if there is a need to seek help for mental illness.
My depression got bad at least a year before I started to drink. Big surprise, I still have it...and it's worse sober. Go figure. This has been, by far, the toughest period of my life.
I do not recommend that people wait to seek mental help. I tried that route before. I was convinced that if I could stay sober long enough things would naturally improve by allowing my brain to settle at a non-chemically induced state. Uber FAIL.
I strongly suggest that ANYONE who has an inkling that he/she may have a mental illness to seek out examination by a licensed professional as soon as possible. They are in a position to determine if it is the addiction alone that is the problem or if there are co-occurring illnesses.
My depression got bad at least a year before I started to drink. Big surprise, I still have it...and it's worse sober. Go figure. This has been, by far, the toughest period of my life.
I do not recommend that people wait to seek mental help. I tried that route before. I was convinced that if I could stay sober long enough things would naturally improve by allowing my brain to settle at a non-chemically induced state. Uber FAIL.
I strongly suggest that ANYONE who has an inkling that he/she may have a mental illness to seek out examination by a licensed professional as soon as possible. They are in a position to determine if it is the addiction alone that is the problem or if there are co-occurring illnesses.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
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I'm not sure which way the topic is headed, but it seems Katie has steered it around to pharmacology, so I don't feel out of line here.
If suicidal depression is present, I'd never suggest to anyone to wait six months and see how they feel. If there is any impulse to self-harm or to harm others, of course, a professional should be involved. However, if the first impulse of that professional is to treat a mental health issue with chemicals, a person might never find out where his or her mental state will settle. The steps are a life-changing endeavor and should be approached with the clearest head possible. They don't work if not taken in a state of continuous sobriety, and there are many commonly used psychotropic drugs that prevent a clear headed state.
For more than twenty years before I got sober, I was treated for depression and borderline personality disorder. Six months into sobriety and step work, I had no depression and my borderline impulses were gone. Do I think the diagnoses were wrong? No, I don't. I do believe that my alcoholism--of which my alcohol consumption was only a symptom--was the cause of the "co-occurring" illnesses, and the treatment I sought for my alcoholism--the steps--eliminated them.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
If suicidal depression is present, I'd never suggest to anyone to wait six months and see how they feel. If there is any impulse to self-harm or to harm others, of course, a professional should be involved. However, if the first impulse of that professional is to treat a mental health issue with chemicals, a person might never find out where his or her mental state will settle. The steps are a life-changing endeavor and should be approached with the clearest head possible. They don't work if not taken in a state of continuous sobriety, and there are many commonly used psychotropic drugs that prevent a clear headed state.
For more than twenty years before I got sober, I was treated for depression and borderline personality disorder. Six months into sobriety and step work, I had no depression and my borderline impulses were gone. Do I think the diagnoses were wrong? No, I don't. I do believe that my alcoholism--of which my alcohol consumption was only a symptom--was the cause of the "co-occurring" illnesses, and the treatment I sought for my alcoholism--the steps--eliminated them.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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