AcceptingChange

Hi,
On the topic of snooping and finding your private notes...

I would think that during divorce proceedings, your lawyer could contest the notes, saying they were stolen.

But i'm not a lawyer and haven't been in this situation, so it's just an uninformed opinion.
That just seems legally wrong for people to steal your things and use it against you in a court of law, especially something like a 4th step that is part of a larger process for the healing of the individual.

joedris

Why are we making an issue of how long it takes to get to the 4th step. I joined AA is 1988. Does that make my opinion greater than someone who joined in 1989? Everyone has an opinion, and being alcoholics we're certain that our opinion is the correct one. I was raised by the old school, too. But that's not how I act with my sponsees as it was, to me, too much of doing stuff just because that's the way I was taught. I've heard greeat statements from someone with 45 days of sobriety and dumb ones from someone with 30 yrs. The issue here is the repercussions that jkemp faces because he cheated on his wife. Let's concentrate on that and not wear our sobriety on our sleeves!

jkemples2

I am just livid right now. I don't know what to do. I feel so violated, it's hard to trust anyone. I appreciate all the people I have met in AA, but as a result of this happening, I have lost all my other friends. I know it has been suggested to me not to get in a relationship in your first year of sobriety, but what is suggested for someone who wants to move after a divorce. I am considering it after this ordeal, though not until the end of the summer.

sfields141

What happened to a fearless and moral inventory, dont you to have some morality to be fearless and moral. I believe in the Big Book, and the 12 step Book. This is a life and death struggle is it not? I believe in Brother Bills words and ways,but if you can help someone stay sober another more power to you. I do not condem your way so lets try to meet in the middle and say there is more than one way to stay sober or help someone else sober. I apologize for offending any of you,but its just my opinion.

McGowdog

Welcome to SR, both of you. You're both fairly new, as am I.

I've posted a lot here, but I'm new at this recovery on the internet thing and it's important to respect each other's opinions AND experiences I've found.

We can only state the path we've followed and our experiences from it. Outside of that, it becomes an argument.

Divorce was rough on me, no two ways about it. My ex-wife's friends took me into their home after the divorce. Once I got back on my feet, I took off and had the best life I could ever dream, in ways I couldn't have imagined.

I drank over the incident, but that was stupid. I didn't need to do that, I don't think. But I got sober again and back on my feet.

In fact, life got so good, that I was able to move out of the rat race and come down to southern Colorado and be close (but not too close) to my parents.

As far as A.A. goes, the thing that works for me is find the strongest group of people who actually work steps and get in. There, you will have friends and your life will change to where your old friends will either be true friends or they will disappear. Most of my friends from my drinking days sort of disappeared. I learned to not take it personal. I'm a different guy from back then. Even if we would be friends still, we just don't have a lot in common. I was into excitement and drama back then. Now, those things are poison to me. I'm just busy as can be paying attention to family and doing A.A. stuff.

But that's just me.

FunnyOne

It's mostly a lie anyway. That's the way we see life as we're driven by selfish, dishonest, resentment, and fearful as we go about life running the show and "playing God" so to speak.

5th stepping it or for most, doing that 4th column is where we turn that line between the 2nd column and the 3rd column into a lie.


Could you explain this statement? Seeking to understand.

Also, I have always struggled with the "except when doing so would cause them more harm" Who am I to decide what is right for them? In the case of an affair, are you suuuurrrreeee your spouse didn't know?

McGowdog

FunnyOne: It looks like you quoted a prior post of mine.

Could I explain what statement? Turning my 3rd column into a lie or how, left to my own devices, I play God and am driven by selfish, dishonest, resentment, and fear...and let me add inconsiderate behavior?

I think most of us come into AA as agnostics. And I suppose some untreated alcoholics in AA are agnostic or have current agnosticism too. I did/do sometimes. At times, I can believe my current concept of God is really God. In otherwords, God is in my head. And if you can believe this, that's a bad neighborhood. I'm gonna throw in an AA slogan here, but I like this one; to experience God, you have to be out of your mind.

So we come into AA or into these steps with no understanding that we are running life on our own power. Well guess what? Lack of Power is my dilemna. But that's what that book is about. We have instructions on how to tap into the Power of God with regards to living and enjoying our life. Here's a little side question; Does God "suggest" or "direct"?

If you want to know what I really believe, look at what I do... not what I say. I do a lot of work with 4 through 9, and when I'm done with that, I'm praying and meditating and seeking God's Will. I'm listening to God. I'm listening for God's calm quiet voice... amongst the chaos.

My 3rd column is where I wind up trying to run the show on my own. I'm up on my throne and all the people in my life are merely actors/players in my play of life. If you stick to your script, we're good. But if you stray from the script I wrote for you, I'm But here's the problem, I'm also the director. Did you receive and read that script I wrote for you? It's a good'n. If you follow it, you, like myself, will be pleased!

You ask, "except when doing so would cause them more harm". My only experience with that is the fact that "you" are not others. The book talks about infidelity and it depends on the situation. With some, you don't let them know the specifics. They may know anyway, but you can clear up your side of the street in a general way without involving the "3rd party". What right do you have to put them in harm's way? You've already caused them harm too, right? It's all in that book there from about pages 77 to 83.

Freedom1990

For me, that's why I am sure to review my list of people I had harmed, and to discuss possible amends to those people with my sponsor first.

He will spot erroneous thinking on my part where often I can't see it at the time.

Make any sense?

Charmie

im just over 100 days sober and im right in the middle of my forth step,,i am going to make sure after readint this that i definatly keep it safe! i trust my other hal but he too is in AA and he dosnt have a sponsor yet.hes a pretty level headed guy for an alki but as i work on my programme im seeing things in him that i maybe wouldnt have noticed before and im just not going to run the risk of him seeing my fourth step!.just so you all know we have been together 6yrs,but we are starting again if you like but putting recovery first! i started on the steps 2 months ago,,does this make me obsolete from being able to recover??? sorry but i was told when im ready my teacher will appear,and she did.God brought her to me and im not going to throw that back in His face.isnt ego one of our huge character defects? quality not quantity of sobriety is what counts.some folk can be dry 50 yrs and not be sober.they are always in my prayers as the still suffering alcoholic.

sfields141

McGowdog were is your respect for the old school, is the only way ,your way, can I not disagre with you and still get the respect< I give to you .Life is short and we as a.a members can disagree but also must only one opinion be the onlyone I see lots of good advice here,the rest I filter out without tearing down. the ones I disagre with.You seem to be a smart and strong a.a member, but alittle quick on the draw,if the opinion is different than yours. So as I said my opinion is mine I take resposibility for it, but before you condem it think, are we not working for the same goal.

Taking5

I also disagree with this. In many rehabs, you are strongly encouraged to take your 5th step before you leave, which is typically at 30 or 60 days.

Dr. Bob made amends on the very day of his last drink, even though the steps had not been officially written yet.

Sugah

I am also old school. Love and tolerance is our code -- and faith without works is dead.

How are you doing, jkemples?

Peace & Love,
Sugah

McGowdog

I disagree with your suggestions. That's it. I base this on what I've been shown, how I've done it my self, and not my opinion, but my experience.

If you feel you have to add stuff to the big book, fine. Go for it. But my book says, "Next, we launched..." It says, "We beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start." "Action and more action."

I heard some guys say they've had wet drunks out making amends after 6 hours! And they cite that this is what Bill and Bob did. These guys that did it this way claim that a new drunk needs Power and they need it quick. Lack of Power is our dilemna, right? Even if it's wrong, they may gain just enough power to not drink for a day or two. Once their head clears, they can do it again and take their time, be a little more thorough.

Why sit around and read a book 3 times? To gain knowledge? Because someone told me to? I don't think so.

I never did a set of steps any quicker than about 3 months. I'm a procrastinator too. But I git er' done. Rarely have I seen a person finish a forth step period! The ones I know that did are still pretty much still sober. I remember a guy or a couple, actually, who went out making amends. At least two I know are struggling to get and stay back in.

sfields141

McGowan say what you will about me,but my sobriety is real and un disturbed by attacks,so take your best shots.I do believe a higher power can be whatever we as alcoholics choose it to be.It just has to have more power than me. Good luck in your quest for sobriety...

barb dwyer

jkemples -
I just got here and would like to comment on your original post about the fourth step violation thing.

well, that's what it was IMO.
Something *sorta* like that happened to me -
my ex broke into my car and stole my journal.
way before AA.
And that's why he's my 'ex'.
That and a thousand other really good reasons to dump a loser.

Because of that - and my own admissions in the fourth step -= I'm all FOR burning the thing when done. In fact, my own sponsor kinda made that part of the fifth/sixth step transition.

And I'll do it if I ever get a sponsee past the fourth step.
I haven't sponsored anyone in a long time.

Congratulations on staying sober during all this - I hope you'll continue to post and lean on your friends here in SR as well as your sponsor and friends in the Fellowship.

I can only try to assure you that all is as it should be, and this is as much a part of your recovery as anything. And I don't even know or have to know all the details. This is a magical time for you - I can't encourage you enough to complete your fourth step.

My own fourth step changed me.
Real. Permanent. Radical Change.
I wouldn't want anyone to miss that opportunity.

McGowdog

No luck needed.

Oh, and you just keep chanting that serenity prayer if that works for you.

I did not attack your post whatsoever btw. I disagreed with it.

sfields141

McGowan,I hope you have as much success in life as you do in recovery from alcoholism. How about easy does it or one day at a time. Is there any thing I can say you will agree with? Best wishes on your quest to stay sober.

McGowdog

Fake it till you make it. Keep coming back, except for McGowdog. Drink through the think. Let us love you till you kill yourself. Party sober till you puke. And their will be wailing and knashing of teeth. Stop loving yourself so much and start loving others more. It's not about you. We are all going to die. Meeting makers want to snuff it.

IDK. I like this one slogan. Do the deal. What step are you on, btw?

joedris

sfields141 and McGowdog - Why don't you two take your p*****g contest to the personal message sector. This thread originated with a guy asking for advice because his wife found his 4th step. You two have taken over and are arguing as to who's the purist alcoholic in AA. Give us a break, please. The rest of aren't interested.

sfields141

Joedris I am not trying to agrue anyhting with McGowanDog, I was looking for something we could agree on. I love a.a and all who belong even McGowandog. I never claimed to be an expert on anything.I leave that to my higher power. God Bless one and all. I am sorrythat I tried to find common ground with one and all.I will cease and I am sorry.