Mark75

I have read posts in threads about other topics that discuss success rates as reported by the scientific literature. I am troubled by those studies, but not for the obvious reason. Rather than post my thoughts within those threads, I started a new one.

I've wondered about success rates, I mean the scientific statistical definition of success. Is recovery a "success" only if there are no relapses? Or, is it a "success" if a person doesn't drink for 3 years, 10 years, 20? If success is measured by total abstinence, then success would be no drinking until death. How would one accurately measure that?

Furthermore, who tracks alcoholics who come to the rooms? Certainly those referred by the criminal justice system, employers, DOT, etc. can be tracked, but what of those who self refer to AA? What about those who recover outside of AA?

I think success should be measured both subjectively (the alcoholic or family's report of improvement based on quality of life, which of course would be based on abstinence, number of relapses, working a recovery program, improved emotional status, etc...) and objectively (based only on whether or not there is abstinence.). Conceivably, success would not be reported by the family of an unhappy, miserable dry drunk, Also, success could be reported by the alcoholic and family even if there were relapses, if the alcoholic was working a good program of recovery (progress, not perfection....)

I am sure the authors of these kinds of studies define what they consider success in their reports, perhaps I should have looked them up before posting.

I have not had a drink or mind altering pill for over four months. I never want to relapse. But if I did slip, I would not consider my recovery a failure unless I failed became clean and sober again. I've learned so much about myself and the impact that addiction has had on my life. So has my family. I am a work in progress. I have had some success. I am working the steps.

Above all, I am hopeful, my wife is hopeful. I don't think it's false hope. Studies that report these dismal success rates are overly pessimistic, IMHO. What happens to me will be my experience - 100%. What happens to anyone here on SR, or anywhere, will be their own experience - 100%. Some will report success, sadly, others will not.

How do YOU (not the statisticians!) measure success?

Mark

P.S. I hope this post is received in the spirit intended...

tommyk

Being comfortable with yourself and others, all without the use of drugs/alcohol.

(That's my opinion of successful 'recovery'.)

TryingSoHard

Mark, you raise some very valid points and I'd love to take part in this discussion. I need a little more time to formulate some thoughts, though... haven't had any caffeine yet this morning.

I think I got the intended spirit of the post, and I appreciate it VERY much. Thank you, my friend.

findingout

How do I measure my own success? I no longer suffer from my alcoholism. I'm not cured, but I no longer suffer and I don't have to drink. I don't attempt to measure other people's recovery.

I believe everybody who wants to recover can recover if they are willing to make an absolute commitment to doing what it takes for them to recover. Half way measures avail us not, as they say.

Statistics are great for people who play fantasy league football. I've never heard of fantasy league recovery

MagicMan08

I agree with the progress not perfection part. But this is a tough one.

To me successful recovery is a long term thing. How I have not only beat my addiction, but also what I did with my life after becoming sober. To me quitting drinking is the foundation to the rest of my life....without becoming sober I could not build on top of that foundation. And if that foundation falls out, it is pretty likely I will lose my entire "house"

When it comes to the "studies" they are sometimes done when people exit treatment. And they get a call or something at like 3-6-12 months seeing if they are sober had any slips, etc. A successful recovery depends on the person who is recovering :ghug2

readyforhelp

Cubile, I like what you're thinking.
If, as in the diagnosis criteria, a habit becomes an addiction when one starts to have consequences for the behavior, then your reasoning stands.
I like it.

TryingSoHard

I think this is the key part of Mark's post:
He's not asking how YOU define a successful recovery, but how all of these "researchers" and "scientists" who conduct recovery studies define it. We've seen an awful lot of info lately saying, "90% of alcoholics will relapse in the first 18 months" and other stuff like that. I think this is what he's trying to delve into.

It can be very depressing to CONSTANTLY read "statistics" that OVERWHELMINGLY suggest 9 out of 10 of us will fail and never truly recover. I actually think Mark is trying to debunk that theory and show that the "success" rate is actually much higher than these studies would lead us to believe on the surface.

I'm going to get some coffee and pull out a few books and see if any of these authors disclose the details of the studies they used.

(Mark, please let me know if I'm off-base and I'm missing your point.)

TryingSoHard

For the record, I TOTALLY agree with this, MagicMan. But a lot of time the rest of the world (or our spouses/friends/ SOs) want to know what the odds are that we'll stay recovered, and they have no resource other than these studies. It's got to be very disheartening for them as well to read that there is a 95% chance we will fail.

CarolD

When I am in harmony with God

readyforhelp

I measure my success by:
my activities (there were nearly none while I was in the bottle)
my thoughts, including the thoughts about myself (positive versus negative)
my relationships
my job productivity
my diet (eating right, not fatty crap foods)
my excercise
my depression and anxiety symptoms

This is all I can think of right now.

TryingSoHard

Well, duh. Ok, so he *was* asking that.

LOL

See why I said I needed my caffeine?!?!

Mark75

I initially started the thread with two or three points I wanted to make:

- Statistically, the odds of recovery seem against us.

- So, how do those who study addiction, consider recovery "succesfull"?

- I offer other criteria, besides permanent abstinence, as possible indicators for, at least partial, success.

My wife says I like to hear myself talk, maybe I should have been more concise...

After I wrote most of my post, I thought we all would like to see what others on this forum would consider succesful recovery.

So far, none of the replies have said "total, complete and permanent abstinence" as the defining criterion for succesful recovery.

I am very interested in what will come out of this thread. I hate all the negativity that is implied by all these depressing statistics. IMHO we should learn more about how these studies are performed.

We DO need to respect the seriousness of alcoholism/addiction and it's impact on individuals, families and society. Neither to we want to take away hope for recovery, however it is measured.

Mark

Mark75

Although MagicMan makes the excellent point, to paraphrase, his successful recovery depends on long term sobriety (abstinence).
That is given, but do those who slip, but continue trying to recover, failures?

Mark

Astro

I think that's the goal for everyone in recovery, but ultimately we know that it's up to "us", even though my desire is to have long-term sobriety "I" know that "I" only have today, and "my" goal is to stay focused on my program of recovery and to get through today without taking another drink.

I agree that the statistics are pretty depressing. I've attended meetings almost every night for close to 4 years at the same recovery Club. I've watched so many people come and go it's staggering. Alcoholism truly is a killer, it's definitely cunning, baffling, and powerful.

OK, so here's how I define my success:

The Promises have come true for me. I have a better relationship with my children than I ever dreamed was possible. I have a beautiful fiance who works her own successful programs of recovery. I've made more friends in recovery than I ever imagined having. I've held on to my job, every night I have a roof over my head and food on the table.

This list could go on and on. For today I have my sobriety and a relationship with a God of my understanding, I have total faith in Him.

If I push God and my program aside I'll probably lose everything I've worked so hard for. To be successful means to surrender every day.

Taking5

Statistics are meaningless and many times the people compiling the statistics have an agenda. JMHO.

Here's a good one. 100% of the relapsed alcoholics in my study have had recent consumption of Dihydrogen Monoxide or DHMO. 100%!

I think we need to put controls on DHMO.

Dihydrogen Monoxide, in case you don't know it, is a fancy name for "water".

Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info

KindBird

This is such an important pondering. I think there are so many answers to your question. I so agree with what you write here : "But if I did slip, I would not consider my recovery a failure unless I failed became clean and sober again. I've learned so much about myself and the impact that addiction has had on my life. So has my family. I am a work in progress. I have had some success."

This becoming sober process is a journey for me. I had about 45 days in Nov/Dec then spent a few weeks drinking moderately, but got back to sobriety 11 days ago. I learned so much during the 45 days - and the period of drinking was just not good - it felt like YUCK but I would not have known that without the 45 days of sobriety. I am on a path right now that I want to be a path of total sobriety, but like you if I slip I want the response to get right back on board, not to use it as the beginning of a big slide.

Thanks for this thoughtful post.

FightingIrish

I think it depends on one's problem...

if I am an alcoholic, then successful recovery entails eliminating the need for alcohol. (recognizing that if i ever put alcohol into my body again i will trigger the craving and the progressive illness.) if i end up putting alcohol into my body again, then i have obviously not eliminated the need for alcohol and, therefore, have not been successful in my recovery.

if i am a heavy drinker, then moderating the amount and frequency of my drinking would be construed as success.

TryingSoHard

Can it really be that cut and dry? What about the people that manage to stay sober for 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, or more and then have a relapse? Have they not been successful?

At what point can we consider ourselves "successful" or "recovered", or is it a never-ending cycle?

(I'm still going to pull out those books and look up those studies... I just fell asleep earlier today and now I have family stuff to do!)

Pagekeeper

Not sure if this site will have the specific study you are looking for, but you'll find numerous studies on alcoholism on the Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs website. I'm not allowed to post links because I'm under 15 posts, so just google it.

FightingIrish

I was giving an opinion based on my experience with the A.A. program. A.A.'s goal seems to me to be life-long abstinence.

("But if you really and truly want to quit drinking liquor for good and all, and sincerely feel that you must have some help, we know that we have an answer for you."---"The Doctor's Nightmare", Alcoholics Anonymous, 1st Edition)

Anecdotally, I have heard tell of how, when an A.A. member dies sober, the expression is "he/she successfully completed the program."

I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, really...

The term "recovered" is one I do not use, but others do to indicate that they have completed the A.A. program ("..had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps...")