AA a religion?
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AA a religion?
Before anyone gets mad, I don't want no trouble. I'm just curious. I've noticed that some AA members get very adamant in saying that AA is spiritual and not a religion. Is there something undesirable about religion? Is there something about religions that you don't want to be associated with? Bear in mind that I am not religious and any beliefs I may have, I am in the process of eliminating. I have no antagonism toward AA, I don't care if it is or isn't a religion. I don't have a problem with any religion as long as they leave me alone.
From my perspective AA appears to be a religion. AA members congregate in groups, they have a set of steps to be followed in order to do something to their spirit, and pray to powers outside of themselves. AA has a form of confession and even passes the collection plate. It's even been stated that much of the big book comes from the bible.
Even though I'm not religious, I don't see anything wrong with religions per se, of course we all know that they can be twisted and warped into something undesirable sometimes. But at the core I think they are mostly positive creations. And AA seems to have been created for the betterment of humans which I think is a noble ideal.
Sorry for rambling with this stupid question. But what's wrong with calling AA a religion?
From my perspective AA appears to be a religion. AA members congregate in groups, they have a set of steps to be followed in order to do something to their spirit, and pray to powers outside of themselves. AA has a form of confession and even passes the collection plate. It's even been stated that much of the big book comes from the bible.
Even though I'm not religious, I don't see anything wrong with religions per se, of course we all know that they can be twisted and warped into something undesirable sometimes. But at the core I think they are mostly positive creations. And AA seems to have been created for the betterment of humans which I think is a noble ideal.
Sorry for rambling with this stupid question. But what's wrong with calling AA a religion?
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Re: AA a religion?
Originally posted by DallasHawkins
Sorry for rambling with this stupid question. But what's wrong with calling AA a religion?
Sorry for rambling with this stupid question. But what's wrong with calling AA a religion?
Many people incorrectly seem to think that it is and personally I don't really care a whole lot what people want to belive AA is.
However, coming to a public forum and making incorrect statements may in fact discourage other people from trying AA because they are getting false information.
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Is there something undesirable about religion?
Is there something about religions that you don't want to be associated with?
From my perspective AA appears to be a religion.
AA members congregate in groups,
and pray to powers outside of themselves.
they can be twisted and warped into something undesirable sometimes.
But what's wrong with calling AA a religion?
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell.
Spirituality is for people who have been there.
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It's really quite simple.Religions have a very concrete and unwavering definition of whatever God (or gods,godesses,etc)they worship.And they are not inclusive of other religions.For example,you don't find people worshipping Budha at the Baptist church.AA is open to people of all faiths,or no faith at all.It requires no particular set of beliefs.The steps are suggested...and they can be worked in a variety of ways...or not at all.
I once knew a guy who called his Higher Power Fred.He was just as much an AA member as anyone,and nobody minded a bit.
I know people who've been sober for many years who are still agnostic.In fact,I have always tended to be somewhat agnostic myself.I've been sober for over 13 years,and my beliefs are still not carved in stone.
Lots of people simply choose to think of God as
Good
Oorderly
Direction
Another popular misconception is that working Step 3 means giving up free will and responsibility for our actions.That's not the case at all.I worked the step simply by allowing a power greater than myself to care about my will and my life.For me,that's how "turning my will and my life over to the care of" works.It's been enough to keep me happily sober for all these years.
Which brings us to another misconception.Many of Jack's followers seem to be convinced that long time AA members are miserable creatures who live in constant fear and expectation of relapse,and that we believe ourselves powerless to avoid getting drunk again.Not true.I have a very happy life,and no reason at all to believe I will ever drink again.As long as I keep doing the things that work for me,I know I won't drink.I take full responsibility for my actions.I have many friends who have years of sobriety,and they are some of the happiest,and most responsible people I've ever known.
For starters...it just isn't true.And if it were,it would slam the door on a lot of people who either already have a religion,or are not willing to have one at all.
Based on your criteria,you could call a lot of things a religion.And you are free to think that way if you wish.Just bear in mind that the one thing that keeps people in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation.
phoenix
I once knew a guy who called his Higher Power Fred.He was just as much an AA member as anyone,and nobody minded a bit.
I know people who've been sober for many years who are still agnostic.In fact,I have always tended to be somewhat agnostic myself.I've been sober for over 13 years,and my beliefs are still not carved in stone.
Lots of people simply choose to think of God as
Good
Oorderly
Direction
Another popular misconception is that working Step 3 means giving up free will and responsibility for our actions.That's not the case at all.I worked the step simply by allowing a power greater than myself to care about my will and my life.For me,that's how "turning my will and my life over to the care of" works.It's been enough to keep me happily sober for all these years.
Which brings us to another misconception.Many of Jack's followers seem to be convinced that long time AA members are miserable creatures who live in constant fear and expectation of relapse,and that we believe ourselves powerless to avoid getting drunk again.Not true.I have a very happy life,and no reason at all to believe I will ever drink again.As long as I keep doing the things that work for me,I know I won't drink.I take full responsibility for my actions.I have many friends who have years of sobriety,and they are some of the happiest,and most responsible people I've ever known.
But what's wrong with calling AA a religion?
Based on your criteria,you could call a lot of things a religion.And you are free to think that way if you wish.Just bear in mind that the one thing that keeps people in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation.
phoenix
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
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Hmmm...
I go to church at 9 on Sundays and AA at 11.
I love the double dose of feeling good!!
If one does not know the difference between religion and AA
I think they are a staying home too often!!
I love the double dose of feeling good!!
If one does not know the difference between religion and AA
I think they are a staying home too often!!
But Very, Very Bruisable...
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Oh Dallas, Dallas, Dallas. Nothing like waiting for it to get nice and quiet to throw out some bait and see what gets stirred up, huh? Why not go to a meeting and ask it there, Dallas? Face to face with another human being. Come on, you can do it. Just say yes and I'll get you a list of plenty of meetings right near you. Hey, you may even like it! (GOD-forbid...)
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Originally posted by phoenix
I worked the step simply by allowing a power greater than myself to care about my will and my life.For me,that's how "turning my will and my life over to the care of" works.
snip
Based on your criteria,you could call a lot of things a religion.And you are free to think that way if you wish.Just bear in mind that the one thing that keeps people in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation.
phoenix
I worked the step simply by allowing a power greater than myself to care about my will and my life.For me,that's how "turning my will and my life over to the care of" works.
snip
Based on your criteria,you could call a lot of things a religion.And you are free to think that way if you wish.Just bear in mind that the one thing that keeps people in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation.
phoenix
Perhaps you could explain the first part of your quote above in more detail. What power do you mean? The sense I get, as I said on the other thread, is that spiritualism reinforces your commitment. But you can see how a literal reading of "turning your will over" means "giving responsibility for" your actions to something other than yourself.
On the other hand, I have read that the founder of AA specifically said that people are responsible for their own actions.
It seems that the objection to the term "religious" has to do with the lack of a specific structure or theology?
I love your closing sentence. I guess that is somewhat tempered by the truism that converts are the most zealous, and quickly become the most orthodox, in any belief structure they adopt--probably in inverse proportion to their prior contempt.
Don
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Originally posted by Jon
Nobody "objected" to anything! Now do something constructive or get the **** out!
Nobody "objected" to anything! Now do something constructive or get the **** out!
I was referring to comments on another thread, in response to one of my posts. Yeah, they did, and they have before.
What are you so agitated about? It seems like Dallas asked a simple and pertinent question that has occurred to many people considering sobriety and looking at the various options.
Don
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Originally posted by Jon
snip
Why not go to a meeting and ask it there, Dallas? Face to face with another human being. Come on, you can do it.
snip
snip
Why not go to a meeting and ask it there, Dallas? Face to face with another human being. Come on, you can do it.
snip
It seems to me that someone who isn't interested in applying AA principles for sobriety probably shouldn't go to AA meetings to get educated, or to discuss the core beliefs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the meetings are intended for debate.
In fact, this kind of forum seems like exactly the place to ask questions about AA, RR, SMART, SOS, or any other recovery program. I've had some of my questions about AA answered, and some folks seem to be interested in how I achieved sobriety through SMART. I recognize that the hostility of RR limits the participation of those members, but it still can be useful to know how it differs from other non-step programs.
Although some AA folks here have been pretty dogmatic at first, the vast majority have been welcoming, helpful, and curious. So I'm a little perplexed by the tone of your response to me and to Dallas. Is there something wrong with the topic of this thread? I hate to offend people unintentionally.
Don S
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Originally posted by Don S
It seems to me that someone who isn't interested in applying AA principles for sobriety probably shouldn't go to AA meetings to get educated, or to discuss the core beliefs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the meetings are intended for debate.
It seems to me that someone who isn't interested in applying AA principles for sobriety probably shouldn't go to AA meetings to get educated, or to discuss the core beliefs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the meetings are intended for debate.
And if someone wasn't interested in applying AA principles for sobriety, then the only purpose such statements serve would be to stir up shi*.
These boards have a mission and purpose, Don. To help people who came here seeking help. That is the only reason these boards are here. Not for a debating society or a place to voice and air all of their beliefs. There are millions of boards out there to do that on. This one has a very specific mission that has been allowed to get diluted lately, mainly because of me.
No more.
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Originally posted by Don S
Hi, phoenix,
Perhaps you could explain the first part of your quote above in more detail. What power do you mean? The sense I get, as I said on the other thread, is that spiritualism reinforces your commitment. But you can see how a literal reading of "turning your will over" means "giving responsibility for" your actions to something other than yourself.
On the other hand, I have read that the founder of AA specifically said that people are responsible for their own actions.
It seems that the objection to the term "religious" has to do with the lack of a specific structure or theology?
I love your closing sentence. I guess that is somewhat tempered by the truism that converts are the most zealous, and quickly become the most orthodox, in any belief structure they adopt--probably in inverse proportion to their prior contempt.
Don
Hi, phoenix,
Perhaps you could explain the first part of your quote above in more detail. What power do you mean? The sense I get, as I said on the other thread, is that spiritualism reinforces your commitment. But you can see how a literal reading of "turning your will over" means "giving responsibility for" your actions to something other than yourself.
On the other hand, I have read that the founder of AA specifically said that people are responsible for their own actions.
It seems that the objection to the term "religious" has to do with the lack of a specific structure or theology?
I love your closing sentence. I guess that is somewhat tempered by the truism that converts are the most zealous, and quickly become the most orthodox, in any belief structure they adopt--probably in inverse proportion to their prior contempt.
Don
If you were to study all of the steps,it would become obvious pretty quick that AA encourages individual responsibility.I don't really think it's possible to give up free will."Care of" does not mean the same thing as "control of",in my understanding.
The closing sentence is a quote from the Big Book....and it can apply to anything.If a person approaches a subject with an attitude of contempt,as Jack's followers tend to do with AA,then it's going to have a negative influence on their understanding of that subject.That becomes pretty obvious from the RR board discussions.
phoenix
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What I liked when I found this forum was the way it has compartments. One for AA, one for alcoholism, bikers, etc. This excited me because “the millions of other forums” that you speak of have an agenda for a specific type of recovery and you get slammed if you express ideas outside of that agenda. For the most part, I have to say I was not disappointed. Peter, phoenix, Jay (if I have left out a moderator I apologize) have all been open to the idea of discussing different types of recovery. People who have had success beating a chemical dependency feel very strong and protective about the process by which they have done so. Rightly so, you beat some pretty heavy odds to do it. For the most part, the dogmatic tone that I received from some participants was justified. I did try to “stir sh!t up” and there really is no productive purpose for that and I whole-heartedly support you pressing the delete button Jon. However, your latest comments to Don seem to indicate that you want to make the Alcoholism forum a straight AA party line. If that is what you want, you might wish to delete this forum as a whole and just keep the AA one. Common sense should show that if you label a forum:
You should not take a stance of:
It is also rather arrogant to call someone who has beliefs outside of AA, who simply asked questions about it, a dilution.
There are people in the maintenance stage of recovery Jon. As I am sure you are aware, this is a tough stage. It is helpful to these people to have a place to talk about the techniques they use, and your forum is one of the few that is open and active. Please reconsider your stance Jon. In other words, if some acts like I have, kick them the hell out. But there is something really good about keeping the screen3s, justarounds, and Dons, they can actually provide the help to people that you speak of.
For people who wish to quit drinking or who have quit and would like to discuss issues connected with abstaining from alcohol.
You should not take a stance of:
Not for a debating society or a place to voice and air all of their beliefs. There are millions of boards out there to do that on. This one has a very specific mission that has been allowed to get diluted lately, mainly because of me.
It is also rather arrogant to call someone who has beliefs outside of AA, who simply asked questions about it, a dilution.
There are people in the maintenance stage of recovery Jon. As I am sure you are aware, this is a tough stage. It is helpful to these people to have a place to talk about the techniques they use, and your forum is one of the few that is open and active. Please reconsider your stance Jon. In other words, if some acts like I have, kick them the hell out. But there is something really good about keeping the screen3s, justarounds, and Dons, they can actually provide the help to people that you speak of.
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I'm all for open discussion.I like hearing what people are doing to stay sober.All I ask is that the discussion be conducted with respect for all involved.Unfortunately, many RR people are adamant about calling AA a religion,a cult,and a manifestion of what they call The Beast.They can be rather rabid about it,which is what drives so many people away.Some of their antics have left a pretty bad impression here with us.Still,it is a two way street.Some AAs see alternate recovery as a threat,and react accordingly.To their credit,they are able to see when they may have been wrong.I have not seen much of that from the RR camp.
Think it's hard having a discussion here?It's all but impossible on the RR boards.The slightest hint of tolerance for AA will get you flamed by the regulars.And people from SR are banned on sight...no ifs,ands or buts about it.Jack calls it "sneaking under the tent flaps".And that's on what they refer to as their "Open Forum".Jack will tell you that peaceful coexistance is out of the question.His goal is the destruction of 12 step recovery.
I have enjoyed the input from Dallas and Don S.,but I do kind of question the motive behind this most recent thread.If it's just curiosity,it seems to have been worded rather poorly.And these forums are for support in finding sobriety...not for idle debate.
phoenix
Think it's hard having a discussion here?It's all but impossible on the RR boards.The slightest hint of tolerance for AA will get you flamed by the regulars.And people from SR are banned on sight...no ifs,ands or buts about it.Jack calls it "sneaking under the tent flaps".And that's on what they refer to as their "Open Forum".Jack will tell you that peaceful coexistance is out of the question.His goal is the destruction of 12 step recovery.
I have enjoyed the input from Dallas and Don S.,but I do kind of question the motive behind this most recent thread.If it's just curiosity,it seems to have been worded rather poorly.And these forums are for support in finding sobriety...not for idle debate.
phoenix
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Pheonix,
Everything you said about Jack is true and the rational.org forum is true. To clarify, I am not a member of RR. RR is a company that I am not employed by. I use the thechnique that Jack patented AVRT. Lots of people use AVRT and some of them happen to be A$$ holes. I am able to see where I have been wrong and openly admit it so you have met at least one.
As far as the topic of this thread, it is interesting and educational to hear what people like you and peter (and Jon when he is not telling people to **** off) have to say. People do hear bad things about AA as a religous cult and topics explaining that it is not could dispel some of those fears. Like Doug just said, incorrect information will do that and can create fear.
Thanks for the explaination.
Everything you said about Jack is true and the rational.org forum is true. To clarify, I am not a member of RR. RR is a company that I am not employed by. I use the thechnique that Jack patented AVRT. Lots of people use AVRT and some of them happen to be A$$ holes. I am able to see where I have been wrong and openly admit it so you have met at least one.
As far as the topic of this thread, it is interesting and educational to hear what people like you and peter (and Jon when he is not telling people to **** off) have to say. People do hear bad things about AA as a religous cult and topics explaining that it is not could dispel some of those fears. Like Doug just said, incorrect information will do that and can create fear.
Thanks for the explaination.
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Originally posted by Peter
It is always so good when the penny drops and I hope the Religion thing has finally been clarified for some of us.
Stay sober.
It is always so good when the penny drops and I hope the Religion thing has finally been clarified for some of us.
Stay sober.
Yes, it has been clarified greatly. I think Phoenix (and you) have given me a better understanding of how spirituality is a component of your sobriety plans.
More to the point, I will change my vocabulary to use the term spirituality, rather than religious, and feel somewhat better able to explain that to others. Any discussion of recovery inevitably gets into comparisons of how they agree and how they differ. I think I can now say accurately: AA embraces spirituality, SMART is neutral on it, and RR opposes it as a tool in achieving sobriety. I have no idea where groups like SOS, WIS, etc., stand on the issue, and it would be interesting to know.
I think discussions like this serve to inform people who come here looking for help. I'm not sure, Jon, what you mean by "diluting" that mission, any more than I understand a prior comment by someone on another thread about my views "muddying the waters." As someone else mentioned, this recovery board is very useful because of the different forums.
I would only post a question on the AA forum here to seek clarification, and would take any reply at face value (i.e., not debate it). If I went to the RR forum board, I'd expect to be flamed if I posted from an AA, or even a SMART, perspective--that combativeness appears to be part of their philosophy! On this forum, it seems to me that a newcomer would expect to get differing views, and are interested in how the different programs agree or differ.
I think that Dallas'es question has been fully answered, though, so maybe you ought to just lock this thread if it bothers you. Thanks, Phoenix, for answering my specific question.
Don S
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