football_guy

:wtf2

Sometimes I wonder if AA makes me think about drinking?

I am on day 70 and feeling physically great, but the 90 meetings in 90 days and the phone calls etc. remind me *not* to drink. I'd like to just forget about it and just say to myself "I don't drink" instead of "I am trying to avoid drinking"

I quit once on my own for four years. I never "low bottomed". I just wanted to quit. Some of the AA meetings are really valuable to me. But I'm never going to get through the steps because of the God thing. Step one I got on my own a long time ago.

Yesterday, my dentist told me has to remove a tooth and gave me a prescription for valium to take before the procedure. I know I wont get addicted - never have had a problem with drugs (note - my three herniated discs have given me many opportunities to have such a problem) but I feel like if I take the valium which I know will make the whole thing much less stressful, my sobriety will be compromised and I will be a failure.

Yet, on the other hand, I don't think taking the valium would make me a failure - I think AA would tell me I was a failure.

And oh man, am I glad I got away from the Big Book thumpers and into a home group that was more supportive of each other as opposed to relying on a book and a black/white interpretation.:chatter

Oh well. Headed to a meeting tonight. Thanks for letting me vent.

1963comet

Taking a perscribed med will not make you a failure. I thought the same thing after getting dental work done. If it was taken as perscribed it should not affect your sobrity. That is the way it was explained to me.

nandm

Welcome to SR

CarolD

Good to know your still moving forward!
Way To Go!....

Meds? I completely agree with this

As you mentioned ...it's never been a problem for me
and when I need them...I take them.

AA is for my recovery...my doctor is for other problems.
I see no need to discuss my medical conditions
in AA nor my AA program with my doctor.

Congratulations on your sober time!

Signal30

With The Higher Power issue a lot of people have problems with. Whether they are mad at God, or simply do not believe in God. The Big Book is the mortar in the foundation of AA, without the Big Book their is no AA. The 12 steps, what they are, what they mean, and how they work, are all from The BB. I used to get annoyed when people used to talk about the BB, but at the same time I never wanted to open the book either. I judged the BB, without knowing anything about it.

The results are solid. Those who have turned there will over to a higher power, and follow the steps from what the BB says stay sober. All advice given from fellow members, including your sponsor are almost always stated somewhere in the BB in one way or another. Those in AA who see that trying to stay sober on their own self-reliance, and do it their way do not stay sober. These are things that I have personally witnessed. AA is a program of ACTION. For AA to be successful, you must be willing to listen. You must be ready. Almost all of the newcomers I have talked to, the only ones that usually get and stay sober are the ones that have hit their bottom. They feel powerless, exhausted, and usually are at the point of completely giving up on life.

I tried to do AA my way, and yet I would wonder why it wasn't working for me. I was still doing AA with self seeking intentions. That is a form of selfishness, and it is that selfishness that can have me drinking again if I am not careful. To me selfishness as well as other character defects are "coffin nails" towards adding me to the death statistics of the disease of alcoholism.

To those who do not want an involvement with God, I must accept that. If those who can "lick" the drinking problem with self-will, congratz.


AA isn't for everyone. Most of us stay in AA because of the action and results we see in others. I'm sorry if I sound all "High and Mighty", that isn't my intention. I am simply passionate about AA.


Tom

serenityqueen

I agree with alot of what you had to say, Signal30. I was one of those people who was trying to do it my way. And without a Higher Power. I went to at least one meeting a day, usually two, had a Sponsor who I worked closely with, I worked the Steps (as well as one could without having a relationship with my Higher Power who I choose to call God) I hung out with only people in the Program and I abstained from all drugs and alcohol. But it didn't work. I kept relapsing. I look back now and see what was missing, the vital link, I didn't have a relationship with God. I went through the motions of Praying but they were merely words. On the evening of July 24, 2005, I was dead inside. My heart was beating, I was breathing, but I was mentally, emotionally and spiritually dead inside.I was very close to attempting suicide, but I knew that I would fail at that as well. I figured I'd end up being paralyzed, unable to move but my mind would be able to still keep going. I would still feel all the guilt and shame of this disease. As I was going through withdrawls, sicker than a dog, I began screaming out to God to please help me. I almost challenged Him, begging Him if He was really there, if He really hadn't deserted me years ago, then please, please, please help me! I cried and screamed out for help for what seemed like an eternity all the while shaking, sweating and throwing up. The next thing I knew it was about six hours later. I had a very deep, solid sleep and woke up feeling like the weight of the world had rolled off my shoulders. I knew that God hadn't left me, He held me tighter than usual that night and most of all, I felt it.I felt safe and secure. I knew He had been there the entire time. Just like in Footprints. He had carried me through the 32 years I was using and drinking. I think back now at how many times I should have died from the amt. of drugs/alcohol I had been consuming. I realize that I tend to ramble and get off track but I know for me, I would not have just celebrated two and a half years in Recovery without a close, trusting, loving and honest relationship with my Higher Power, God.

I discovered this wonderful site a few months after I celebrated two years of being Clean & Sober. This is truly a gift to us all. God Bless everyone who may read this and always remember to just concentrate on One Day at a Time.

NOMOMERLOTMAMMA

Welcome!

Karen

caraway

I was reading a book yesterday called 'There's More to Quitting Drinking than Quitting Drinking' by Dr. Paul O, and thought this passage might be helpful regarding the HP thing and it also ties in, to some extent, with serenityqueens experience..

"Today I realize that not only does my thinking control my feelings and my actions, it controls two additional extremely important tacets of my personality: My attitudes and my sprirtual beliefs. God doesn't exist in my life in a personal way unless I either decide to believe He exists, or decide to live my life as if I believed He exists. Either decision profoundly affects my attitude, and my attitude affects just about every aspect of my life."

Then he goes on to say...

"Philosopher Baruch Spinosa Didn't believe in the existence of God as a separate entity. He saw all objects, including humans as part of God's self-expression. He thought of God as reality, as being identical with the world as we know it. At first, I discarded this as the thinking of an athiest. More recently I decided that, if, as the Bible says, God created the world in six days, rested for one, and has been busy creating reality ever since, then reality is the way in which God manifests Himself. In this sense then, reality is God, or is in this life all we will ever know of God.

"My days, one at a time, consist of reality, created by God, plus my attitude, created by me. God and I are thus co-creators of my day."

I get doubts too and thought this quite helpful. It sorts of helps to form some idea of what you might believe your HP to be. Its something I often wonder about.

NoelleR

Hey Guy ---

You said, "I'm never going to get through the steps because of the God thing."

Well, I'm not going to get into a philosophical or theological discussion regarding HP or God; whether as I understand Him/Her/It, or as I don't, or whatever.....

BUT, what I will say is that some 20+ years ago I started on the road of happy destiny....onto recovery, joined AA, and worked the steps of AA.....as an atheist.....with an atheist sponsor..... In fact, most of my close friends in AA are atheists, and all have at least as much sobriety as I do....and many have more....waaaay more.......

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that.....you can get this Program, even w/o what most folks in recovery see as an external HP/God.....it can be done, and is done......daily..... (o:


NoelleR
DOS: 6/23/86

Tazman53

Not the AA I know, there was years ago some in AA that felt that way, but if they had read the BB they would have found that this was not AA. AA is for ones alcohol problem, not for taking any meds prescribed by a doctor/dentist and taken as directed.

I would highly reccommend that you PM Noelle and talk to him about working AA successfully as an atheist, I am not an athiest but one of the better talks I have heard given was by an aethiest in AA, he explained how he worked his program with great success, he had a Higher Power, but it was not God, nor was it a doorknob!!!!

The most interesting thing I found about his talk was that one of his sponsees was a Minister!!! Yes a Minister is being sponsored by an aethiest!!! They are best of friends and they each have a Higher Power of thier understanding.

Noelle you could be of a great service to others here of the aethiest clan if you could help others of like mind by sharing how you have worked AA as an aethiest.

So many folks have it in their heads that AA is a religion or a religous program and it is very difficult for those of us who do beleive in God to convince them that it is not. You and many others aethiest who have stayed sober using AA are living proof that that beleif is not true.

Signal30

I am curious to know how atheists do it. I don't know of any in the program. I am not by any means criticizing those who are atheists, I'm simply curious. If self will has failed you then what are you going to as a alternative?

Again, I must say I am simply asking because I don't understand. If it works, then who am I to judge, that would be selfish.


Tom

Tazman53

Tom the Aethist I heard speak did find a Higher Power then himself, it was not his self will alone, how he did this I do not remember, I like you am curious and hope Noell answers as well.

CarolD

Please see

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-programs.html

where Agnostic AA and Pagans are listed.

Not sure if that's helpful but.....

Anna

Hi Football guy,

I think there is a time when most of us would like to forget about it and move on, but I don't believe it works that way. I don't focus on 'not drinking'. I do focus on recovery and for me that is a huge blessing and a way of life that brings me joy.

It is my opinion that taking medication for a legitimate medical issue does not ever compromise your sobriety.

jimhere

I know a fellow with long-term quality sobriety who claims to be an athiest. He has found spiritual power within himself by having an open-mind and taking action in steps 4-9. He said he found the willingness to be open-minded and to take the action by getting his butt kicked by whiskey.

Actually he understands "it" (God) almost the way I do. It is not a he, she, a feeling, or anything I can define. It is a verb.
Jim

football_guy

Hi all - thank you for the replies. I went to a meeting tonight which was good and healthy. Obviously I was getting fidgety as you can tell by my first post.

As for the steps . . . Step One I realized myself when after four years of abstinence, I tried to moderate and failed. Step Two I realized when I decided that I recognized the AA fellowship as a higher power.

Step Three though is different. Step Three involves the word God and the willingness to turn one's will over to Him. To me there is a lot of irony about the God concept with AA. We are to turn our will over to God, not to "a God", therefore we are monotheists, yet in AA many refer to "their God". Are there many Gods? At any rate, I don't wish to dwell on this strange unwritten yet real contradiction living within the walls of AA. The issue here is whether or not I am willing to turn my will over to God. I have many reasons to question God as we all do. Planes flying into skyscrapers is one of mine. War, famine, poverty, cancer, anger, evil, hatred, alcoholism - those are a few others.

This is going to be a big problem for me. I don't know how or if I will ever get past Step Three. How can I turn my will over to something I don't trust - even if He, the one and only God, exists? I just don't know. I think about it all the time.

nandm

What you describe here sounds very similar to what I felt when I arrived at AA. Before I was even in my teens I was struggling with the God concept and how a God could allow such things as war, hatred, evil, etc... if he really cared about humans. Needless to say my opinion did not improve throughout my years of drinking.

The key for me was picturing something stronger and more powerful than myself. Energy is one thing that is more powerful than I. I can not control it. It is present in every molecule. I certainly am not powerful enough to be in every molecule. So for me that was the basic concept of a Higher Power when I worked on step three. Some will say, "Oh, that is ridiculous!" Regardless of others opinions of my initial concept it worked for me to believe that there is a universal energy that I could tap into and it would provide me with the strength to fight my disease. My concept has grown and changed through the years as I have learned more, seen my life change, and experienced the process of the Steps being applied to my life.

I hope that you find something of use in my experience, if not then I hope you find something that helps. Living as an active alcoholic can be a miserable way to live life.

jimhere

I wasn't sure about the whole deal either. I had a good sponsor. He said, just try picking a conception that makes sense to you, or in other words start where you are at. Then take the action. It grows from there.

By the way, I don't think it cares what you call it.
Jim

NoelleR

My Bad Guys..... (o:

I posted, and never came back to check and see what was going on....actually, since I'm usually lambasted by many AA folks, I usually say my little 'yess atheists can, and do, work the AA Program, and get and stay sober....happy, joyous, and free' and I leave it at that, so as not to get into some kind of &^%$# match.....whoops, sorry for the language....lol

OK.....first off, let me explain, that I'm not a sir, although even f2f I'm often referred to as sir, I'm a female......but don't worry guys 'n gals.....I'm thick-skinned.....hehehe

"...I am curious to know how atheists do it. I don't know of any in the program. I am not by any means criticizing those who are atheists, I'm simply curious. If self will has failed you then what are you going to as a alternative?.."

Now.....I can't tell you how all atheists work the Program; all I can do is tell you how I've done it.

I was very lucky when I first came through the doors of AA; I was immediately drawn to a woman who was also an atheist....and she became my sponsor.....When we sat down 'to the book,' she told me that nothing in it mattered except pages 59+60.....Oh, I could read all the rest, as to those folks opinions and experiences with working the steps, but we were going to concentrate on the steps..............for ME.

Sooooooooooooooo........here we gooooooooo.........:

Before I get into each step individually, I just wanted to say here (and I believe I'll copy and past this before step 10 too) that.....when I first started this road of recovery, my sponsor told me, and a lot of the other oldtimers said it too.........When you're new (or anytime for that matter), and whatever step you're 'really' 'working' on, you can always work 'at' all the steps with '1' in them; that would be.....: steps 1, 10, 11, and 12. Perhaps not how you will work them when you get to them through working the other steps, but you can give them a go.....working at step 10 may help you keep you lists for step 4 shorter, not adding to them while working steps 1-3....lol....working at step 11 will help keep you centered, and in balance (of sorts...better than not working at it atall).....and working at step 12 can help you talking with others, and being willing to be out there for others.....


1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

We didn't get into all the stuff some folks seem to....back then, but even more today.....being powerless over 'everything' .... all people, places, and things......heck, that's not limited to alcoholics/addicts.....thats everybody. I came to AA to recover from alcoholism....therefore, my powerlessness over alcohol (when I put it in my body) was I needed to focus on....and the unmanageability was a given.....cept everybody else seemed to be managing my life for me....my boss, the cops, the lawyers, the judges, the jails.....grrrrr

Well, heck, that was easy.....I guess you can just think of that old joke about being allergic to alcohol.....I'm allergic to alcohol; I drink and I break out in handcuffs............that was me......and it was getting old.....and so was I....lol

That step was easy......and I gottit it 100%.....no onto the next step


2.Came to believe that a Power greater than our-selves could restore us to sanity.

The first thing my sponsor had me realize in this step is what it doesn't say; it doesn't say I have to define my HP, or name my HP, or be able to tell someone who or what my HP is......this step only say that I come to believe that there is a power great than myself that could (doesn't say WOULD, only COULD) restore me to sanity....the insanity of my life was quite apparent.....

...as per the above post from an inquiring mind here on SR.....: "...If self will has failed you then what are you going to as a alternative?.." Let me just say that I believe that the 'self will' that failed was a selfish and ego-based self will.....and although some of you reading what I'm about to write may see it as self-will and lots of ego.....believe me, it's not; I was in a very humble place when I came to believe..............

Yes, I came to believe there had to be a power great than I was, at the time...heck, I was a mess. What I finally realized was that if I didn't pick up, then the me I would be tomorrow would be more powerful (a higher power, if you will) than I was when I first walked through AA's doors.....and believe me.....some 20+ years later, I am totally more powerful than that person was.....way back then.....Well, there you have it.....my higher power was me, but not the me that I was, but the me that I would be as long as I didn't pick up..... (o: and now.....step


3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Again my sponsor had me just read what the step said, and not what it doesn't say......This step does NOT say to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understood Him (in fact, even here, my sponsor and I changed the God to my higher power, and totally left of the 'as I understood Him' part).....This step only says to make a decision to do so.........heck, another easy step......I'm ok with that.....let's go on to the next steps


4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. --- again the word 'God' was removed

Well....I've done these steps both verbally only, and with a bunch of writing...these are a couple of steps that took a lot of willingness and openmindedness on my part....quite frankly, except for needing the 'shortcomings' or whatever for steps 6+7 and the persons I had harmed for steps 8+9, I just couldn't see the point. One thing I was told was this step helps us look at ourselves honestly and we can see patterns in our life tlat may have led us to using (but I don't need to see patterns; I don't need to know why I touched the stove; I just need to know that if I don't touch the stove, I won't be burned by it.....) BUT, on the other hand.....an honest evaluation of ourselves is a good thing....as Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." .....so an inventory was in order, and one was done.....and gone over with my sponsor.....whew....next....!


6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. --- and yet again the word 'God' was removed
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. --- and this wording was changed a bit to 'humbly hoped that these shortcomings would be .... gone

I've always been a bit of a fatalist (?).....I'm right where I'm supposed to be; what's here is supposed to be, and if it's not supposed to be here, it will be gone.....and that's kinda like the way I see the 'negatives' that I saw in my life at the time.....

I see a life filled with characteristics....and these have both a positive and a nevagive side.....and I need to be in balance.....that's what I'm striving for....and at the time the negative far outweighed the positive.....grrrrr.....and that's where I am today.....well maybe not totally in balance, but way better than I was.....just not picking up, and wanting a better life, and working on the positives, the negatives just seem to be disappearing.....woooooohoooooo, and now......


8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

OK, this one is a little tricky.....I got the list of those folks I've harmed, and I'm willing to make amends to them all.....all with whom I may have continued contact.....I'm not going out of my way to find folks from my past that I never see or interact with, for the sole purpose of making amends.....I've got better things to do with my life.....and lots of folks in my life with whom I do interact.....and these are the people with whom I'm more concerned.....

Making an amend just 'because it says so'? I'm sorry; I did a lot of stuff when I was using 'just because' but in recovery I've found that I question, and if there's no reason/purpose for it, I just let it pass........at least for the present....I may find in the future that some of these amends may be necessary, and I'll be totally willing to comply.....I'm open, just not necessary now.....least not for me.....

.....and one thing I want to add here.....I hear/read here on SR about folks apologizing for stuff, and that's their amends......SORRY, but, although an apology may be a part of an amends, it is NOT an amends....an amends means to mend....to fix.....ie to fix a broken relationship from my past.....just a li'll fyi here.....okey dokey.....coming up on the final turn here.........


10.Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to im-prove our conscious contact with God as we un-derstood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. --- again removing the word 'God'
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Before I get into each step individually, I just wanted to say here (and I believe I'll copy and past this before step one too) that.....when I first started this road of recovery, my sponsor told me, and a lot of the other oldtimers said it too.........When you're new (or anytime for that matter), and whatever step you're 'really' 'working' on, you can always work 'at' all the steps with '1' in them; that would be.....: steps 1, 10, 11, and 12. Perhaps not how you will work them when you get to them through working the other steps, but you can give them a go.....working at step 10 may help you keep you lists for step 4 shorter, not adding to them while working steps 1-3....lol....working at step 11 will help keep you centered, and in balance (of sorts...better than not working at it atall).....and working at step 12 can help you talking with others, and being willing to be out there for others.....

OK.....step 10 -- I daily keep a positive attitude from the moment I open my eyes in the mornig.....and I try to keep my side of the street clean.....and at night I check, and if I missed a 'wrong' admission during the day, or an apology or an amends.....I write them out for the next day.....

step 11 -- well, I pass on prayer bit, but meditation, seeking peace within, seeking and finding my path.....that's all good for me.....

and finally step 12 -- I know many folks feel that meetings are the only way to give back.....but for me....I don't do meetings any more....well, I do very few, and usually only birthday nights, or just dropping in to see old friends...I know some will ask.....that age-old question, "Well, what if everybody thought as you do, and nobody with any longterm sobriety went to meetings?" Not to worry.....that ain't going to happen. There will always be folks whose service work it is to be at meetings.....and that is a good thing; it's just not my good thing......I've always felt that since the step say to 'carry' the message, well, I wasn't supposed to sit in a meeting and wait for folks to come to me.....I've found that bus stops are great places to talk recovery.....especially when a couple of the bus stops I've used on a regular basis are right close by probation/parole offices.....Riding the bus was good for me too.....there almost always is a person who's drunk, just a little mebbe....and may even be interested in stopping his/her crazy lifestyle......who knows? I've almost always told the folks with whom I work, and they've always known they could come to me with questions regarding relatives, or friends, or even other employees (anonymously, of course), waiting in line at the grocery store, reading the 'inquiring mind' papers, paying at the gas station.....while others fumble through the ice for a 'nice cold one'.....lol Heck, I could probly go on and on............but I'm real tired, AND I'll probly be real surprised if anyone gets through all this,,,,,BTW, I know I make a lot of typos - I apologize now.....cause I ain't going back and rereading/editing this.........it's just tooooooooo long......and bless yer hearts if you do read all this......even half, and I'll be amazed at yer fortitude.....but thank you for asking.....this was good for me.....and I hope some of this makes sense to y'all, and perhaps I've even helped someone..... (o:



In Recovery/Recovering/Recovered,

NoelleR
DOS: 6/23/86

Tazman53

Thanks NoelleR, you really should stick around here more often and comment on the threads where folks are claiming AA is a religion or religous, I am spiritual, but not religous, I do beleive in God as I understand him, you don't and that is just fine with me, I have what I need and you have what you need. We are both happy, joyous and free, we both try and carry the message to those that still suffer.

Oh I know there are some folks who want to take your inventory on the God deal, but hey, we all need to worry about our side of the street and not worry about how we view some one elses side of the street, not our problem nor is it within our control.