tiburon88

People in recovery have relapses every day. When you give the guy who cut you off the finger, you relapsed. When you gossip about so and so coming to the meeting with booze on their breath, you relapsed. These are emotional relapses that are very common in "sobriety".
Drinking a few beers is not that big of a deal. I don't believe in moderation but at the same time popping a few cold brewskies is not a total setback.
There is scientific evidence that shows the 12-step model of addiction can increase the depression and anxiety in "relapse prone" (AA's term) individuals. Yes folks believe it or not the government has done research stats on AA's sobriety outcomes and it is extremely poor. I will be quitting AA after I receive my 1 year chip and cake. I'm even hoping for a steak dinner from a few "home group" members .. I'm checking out some SMART recovery meetings in my area it's just too bad that there aren't too many.

Nuudawn

Tib,
May I ask why you are accepting the chip and cake if you do not believe in the program?
Your phrase "popping a few cold brewskies is not a total setback" is a little disconcerting to me. Popping a few cold brewskis? That's pretty casual and cutesy terminology for what represents a true demon to some.

It feels to me like you are stepping onto a cold and bitter road of anger and/or denial.

Although I empathisized with some of your musings on the previous thread, I'm saddened by your seeming hypocrisy. If you don't believe in AA, walk away with your beliefs and stand strong. Don't stand before a group of people applauding and supporting with a bitter heart.

doorknob

Tib,

Flipping off another driver may be a relapse of being an ***hole, but I don't think it's the same as picking up. And having a couple of beers and getting back to sobriety isn't the same as completely returning to your old lifestyle, but it's still a break in abstinence.

If you disagree with AA philosophy and want to leave, then why do you want that cake and chip so bad? It seems wrong to collect all the rewards and then bail on the folks who have supported you for the last year.

I haven't been to a SMART meetings, but I have been to LifeRing meetings, and I think you will find them refreshingly different. Also, they both have online meetings, some even with voice.

DK

Golfman

Since you've attended AA meetings I'm sure you've heard "How it Works" many times. The word "honesty" is mentioned 3 times in the opening paragraph. You think there might be a reason for that?

The only one you're really hurting is yourself. I wish you well

Your in sobriety,
Ed

PurpleReign

Tib,
I think you've discovered something that it took me a very very long time to discover - I'm not perfect, only God (or the HP of your choosing) is.

I won't and can't defend AA because I'm such a new member of it's promise and hope. I will however let you know that without the fellowship of AA, I likely wouldn't be sober today.

I've had complete strangers give me their number and listen to me, when I'm jonesin' for a cold one. I've been given hugs by complete strangers with smiles that could melt the polar ice caps. AA has given me the opportunity to finally live, and I mean live a life outside of myself. AA has taught me the most valuable currency in the world is the your time to help others.

I'm sorry you feel that way about AA and I hope you find an avenue that fits you and keeps you healthy and sober...but as for me - I love me some AA.

Blessings,
PR

CarolD

Hmmm...
SMART is also a program of abstinence.
And I don't know what
they consider a relapse ... Sorry


I do hope you find peace and health with
your new path.
Do post on your progress with SMART.

Life is too short to be
thrown away with unchecked alcoholism.

Blessings

wozzek

Man, you want to drink and that's fine with me - it is your choice! I want to drink also but I am not going to, not today, because I am an alcoholic and, as Nuudawn called it, I do not want to have the demon back in my life, at least not with the full force of a relapse...

Btw, there is another government research done - it stats that survival rate among humans is zero; we are all going to die eventually. However, there are no proofs found yet that this fact increased the number of suicides among us, poor, doomed sublunar beings


.

Missymae737

Tib,

I am not a meeting a day (AA) follower. I don't believe all the teachings, but I RESPECT anyone in AA who does. What works for one, may not work for another.

The foundation of AA has proven that sobriety can live on in most lives.

Relapse is common and it doesn't matter if you are in a program of recovery, or if you are a DRY drunk. Relapse is painful. It shouldn't be taken lightly. Whether it is one drink or ten, it is relapse.

Emimily

Um... maybe I'm a bit resentful (4th step, what?) but it seems pretty f---ed up to attend AA meetings and join a home group if you think it's not going to work. What's the point? To build relationships with people when you're going to peace after a year? That's weak. Not to mention super selfish and dishonest... but whatever, maybe I'm recognizing something I don't like about myself in you. At the very least I might get something out of reading this and meditating on it.

Pilgrim

Hiya Tib,

I think you are having us on. Are you one of those guys who always plays devil's advocate? If you are not, then wow is all I can say.

So if you are just teasing, ok, hahahaha

If not - I love statistics. I am an economist. I can make statistics do anything I like. Anyone can prove anything they want if they look hard enough and mould those numbers.Your rat voice is winning my friend.

Firstly, can we please have the link to the scientific evidence?

Secondly, depression and anxiety is rife among all of us. We are angsty alckies. It goes hand in hand with alcoholism mate. It is there long before any of us start the 12 step thingy. I wasn't aware of a scale of depression and anxiety but if there is one, we are all on the top of it when we start on this journey.

And lastly, what is a relapse prone individual? We are all relapse prone hunny bun. The only thing stoping some of us is that we know that human intervention will not succeed. No doctor can cure this. No person on the planet has the ability to make an alcoholic not take a drink. None of us have any ability to do what only our HP can do.

Wow - thanks mate. I think I just made it to step one. You did that. xx

Tazman53

.

nocellphone

So, instead of using alcohol, now you're using people and their good will?

You couldn't have titled your post more perfectly: Definition Of A Relapse.


I just want to make the point that not everyone makes it back to sobriety. Many die. This is why abstinence seems to me to be the only sensible path...

...of course, here I go trying to apply sensibility to a disease of insanity.

tiburon88

Carol, perhaps you could add another folder to Alcoholism entitled, Non-Traditional Methods Of Recovery? I will tell you guys what my first SMART recovery meeting is like. I do enjoy most of the people in AA. I feel like a fraud though because I have been to hundreds of meetings, "a few" 12 step type rehabs and just cannot believe in the philosophy. It's been 5 long years of trying hard with sponsers, 4th steps, higher powers, 90in90 ect... Life is very, very lonely when you feel that you no longer fit in with the bar buddies and/or AA. One needs a desire to stop drinking is what people say but is that really true??
May of 2006 was my complete and total bottom. I worked so hard to achieve sobriety and some material things. Yep I like material things. The morning after my 4-5 "cold brewskies" I was contemplating suicide. I felt like a piece of %$# because of thoughts of "losing my time." I need to remember that sobriety chips help many and that I can't change AA. I hope some of you AA'ers consider that there may be others like me hiding in the rooms. I know it may sound strange but not counting my "oops" helps me stay sober.I can't wait for my chocolate piece of cake, I feel like I deserve it and in some way AA owes me for wasting 5 years of my life. Thanks for letting me share.

Astro

Hope you enjoy your cake. Remember that we don't shoot our wounded in AA. You're always welcome back if other forms of recovery don't work for you.

doorknob

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...r-connections/

Tazman53

AA owes you nothing, you owe your self to be honest with your self, because until you become honest with your self there is no program in the world that can help you.

tiburon you are very angry with your self from what I can see, there is no reason to be angry, you slipped, okay fine, learn from it and move on, living a lie is not going to help you or anyone else stay sober.

I lived a lie for years and years, and as a result I continued to drink, I am pushing 6 months of uniterrupted sobriety, but if I slipped I could not bring myself to live a lie again.

AA is not judging you, you are judging your self! You are beating your self up over a slip, get back on the horse and be honest with your self and the world.

Living a lie ripped me apart inside, it was one of the reasons I hated myself, my wife would tell me "Thanks for not drinking today" and I would say your welcome even though I had drank at least 6-8 beers before she got home from work. Man I felt like crap, here I was the man who hated liars and I was lying my butt of to the mother of my children about something that was tearing her apart!

I no longer lie to any one about anything, I like the man I see in the morning in the mirror, I know that I am no longer a liar.

Even if I am not caught in a lie, I know I am a liar if I lie, I can not live that way anymore.

nocellphone

I understand what you're saying a bit more clearly now and I thank you for sharing, but why take the victim posture here by saying that AA wasted your time? Isn't that a bit of entitlement, another part of the disease (as I understand it, anyway)?

I can't imagine AAers came to your house, took you hostage and forced you to sit in meetings, work Steps, do service, work with sponsors/sponsees, etc. (y'know, all those things others may find healthy). I doubt they locked the doors, broke out the duct tape and held you hostage.

There's a point where victimhood turns to volunteerism. You could've left at any time... kinda like you're planning to do now.

Emimily

"and in some way AA owes me for wasting 5 years of my life"

*blech*

nocellphone

Talk about keeping it simple! It took me, like, six hundred words to say what you've just managed to say with one...

paulmh

If not counting your oops helps you stay sober, then great!

You point out something interesting though - the idea that we somehow "possess" our sober time. I think I know what you mean about that. I know that I try hard not to be attached to the amount of time I have sober. It's not the quantity after all, it's the quality.

I don't know if you're yanking our chains or not Tib, but thanks for sharing that. It's interesting. And like I said in the other thread about chips, CarolD is right that the only sober time we can count is our own.