75 years of aa -time to admit we have a problem
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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Originally Posted by Grungehead 
But it IS a support forum for a particular philosophy. That IS the purpose of this forum, to give and receive support as it pertains to 12 step recovery programs. If you are not here for that purpose then I would check your motives for posting. And by "your" I mean anyone posting here. If I go over to the secular forum and I am not there to give or receive support as it pertains to secular recovery from addiction, then I would expect members to ask what my motives are for posting there.
I have said my piece. I am not a moderator so if debating 12 step programs are OK here then so be it.
I have said my piece. I am not a moderator so if debating 12 step programs are OK here then so be it.
lol I was admitting to that i just wrote that post in a confusing way..i realize an opinion doesn't have a place in a support forum for a particular philosophy...the op posted something that didn't belong either i suppose and that is what derailed me...i apologize
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas
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Originally Posted by mick3580
In every piece of anti aa literature that has ever been presented to me, it implies that aa uses a "disease concept of alcoholism." Aa does not have its Own, nor does it endorse anyone else's disease concept of Alcoholism. Aa does not say alcoholism is a moral problem either. The treatment aa offers doesn't address alcoholism or drinking; it addresses the causes of it.
In the 5th century BC. the Greek historian Heroditus referred to alcoholism as a sickness.
In the first century AD. Both the philosopher Seneca and the Christian theologian John Chrysostom made distinctions between heavy drinking and alcoholism with John Chrysostom making comparisons between alcoholism and other diseases.
Alcoholism and the observation that alcoholism is a disease have been around for a long time.
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[thread hijack]
Stop to think about that for a bit. About how special this thing is that we are able to participate in. For centuries alcoholism was a death sentence. No matter how much willingness any of us had, there was little that could be done for us. Today we have people active and functioning in society with decades of sobriety. We no longer have to die of this thing.
[/thread hijack]
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
lol I was admitting to that i just wrote that post in a confusing way..i realize an opinion doesn't have a place in a support forum for a particular philosophy...the op posted something that didn't belong either i suppose and that is what derailed me...i apologize
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Laconia
Posts: 813
Originally posted by Pipefish:
As others have said, no objection to whatever route works for anyone to be well, and hats off to anyone with the courage and commitment to address an addiction of any kind. Only that I’m never clear why alternatives to AA have to be presented in an undermining and contrary way, or even why they are presented so starkly as it’s either this way or it’s that way, alternatives – life is complex, and so is recovery, and plenty of people in AA (myself included) seek therapy in addition to going to AA, and explore many ways of understanding ourselves and our lives better.
As others have said, no objection to whatever route works for anyone to be well, and hats off to anyone with the courage and commitment to address an addiction of any kind. Only that I’m never clear why alternatives to AA have to be presented in an undermining and contrary way, or even why they are presented so starkly as it’s either this way or it’s that way, alternatives – life is complex, and so is recovery, and plenty of people in AA (myself included) seek therapy in addition to going to AA, and explore many ways of understanding ourselves and our lives better.
"But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward.
Its interesting that the BB, our basic text, praises professional efforts in an affirmative and positive fashion.
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But as I was told, the idea that doctors and therapists can help with alcoholism is against the first step acknowledgement that professionals (like anyone) are powerless against alcohol.
I personally do not believe this, and the usual idea that professionals can help with all the problems surrounding alcoholism seemed like a dodge. I think this is a case where it would be better if the practice and teaching of AA stuck closer to what is said in the BB.
I personally do not believe this, and the usual idea that professionals can help with all the problems surrounding alcoholism seemed like a dodge. I think this is a case where it would be better if the practice and teaching of AA stuck closer to what is said in the BB.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Laconia
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Originally Posted by miamifella
But as I was told, the idea that doctors and therapists can help with alcoholism is against the first step acknowledgement that professionals (like anyone) are powerless against alcohol.
I personally do not believe this, and the usual idea that professionals can help with all the problems surrounding alcoholism seemed like a dodge. I think this is a case where it would be better if the practice and teaching of AA stuck closer to what is said in the BB.
I personally do not believe this, and the usual idea that professionals can help with all the problems surrounding alcoholism seemed like a dodge. I think this is a case where it would be better if the practice and teaching of AA stuck closer to what is said in the BB.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 148
I think the article did a good job of providing hope for those who choose not to use AA, join and then leave AA or those who are now able to qualify for addiction treatment through the Affordable Care Act.
AA works for some people, but it certainly isn't the only path to freedom from addiction. Placement of this article in this part of the forums made sense because people who are considering 12-step, perhaps struggled in 12-step, might read it and feel affirmation in knowing that there are alternatives. Support the people and not just the philosophy.
No one should feel like a failure if AA doesn't work for them.
AA works for some people, but it certainly isn't the only path to freedom from addiction. Placement of this article in this part of the forums made sense because people who are considering 12-step, perhaps struggled in 12-step, might read it and feel affirmation in knowing that there are alternatives. Support the people and not just the philosophy.
No one should feel like a failure if AA doesn't work for them.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Originally Posted by kilt
I think the article did a good job of providing hope for those who choose not to use AA, join and then leave AA or those who are now able to qualify for addiction treatment through the Affordable Care Act.
1) A large number of substance abusers (As defined by the article) recover without treatment. I believe the number was 75-80%.
I find this statement to be semantic rather than substantive. Sure, if I define alcoholism/substance abuse broadly enough to encompass most young people, there are plenty of them that don't reach the low bottom 'incomprehensible demoralization' that is described in the big book. They probably don't need AA or alcohol treatment. That fact says more about how you're defining alcoholism than it does about AA.
2) AA lacks a scientific underpinning.
Yeah? There was nothing to suggest it didn't work. Again, a program where much of the treatment is faith based is going to be very difficult to prove using traditional science.
However, neither of these points really applies to the individual who needs treatment and for whom AA 'does not work'. If #1 applied to them, they wouldn't need AA. Number 2 is really irrelevant to them without a specific alternative which the article fails to provide.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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Interesting article but I thought this forum was to provide support and advice on 12 step program. Is it me or is this forum increasingly being used as a platform to question and criticize AA?
It seems odd to put people off an idea before they have enough been to one meeting.
It seems odd to put people off an idea before they have enough been to one meeting.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
I am in AA and am working the steps. I welcome anyone who wants to questions or challenge the program or principles in a healthy and respectful manner. I would not frequent a forum that was a bunch of cheerleaders blindly adopting other people's ideals without questioning. If we did we could title that section brainwashing though - my guess is it would not be popular.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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Originally Posted by jdooner
I am in AA and am working the steps. I welcome anyone who wants to questions or challenge the program or principles in a healthy and respectful manner. I would not frequent a forum that was a bunch of cheerleaders blindly adopting other people's ideals without questioning. If we did we could title that section brainwashing though - my guess is it would not be popular.
I'm all for debate but there is a place for it. The article was a red flag in a bull ring.
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Unless there's forum specific rules on discussion, we follow lines like these:
As far as I know no posts have been removed for being against the rules in this thread.
If you think something is inappropriate, report it.
If you think the forum needs to change, take it up with Admin.
Personally, I don't think anythings broke here.
D
Originally Posted by MorningGlory, Administrator
Discussions are fine. Respectful disagreements are fine too. I consider a discussion a conversation when all parties are listening to each other and sharing ideas. Respectful disagreements are disagreements that still allow the other person their own opinion. Discussions are showing an interest in understanding why another feels a certain way. We listen intently as they explain themselves and are free to admit any error in our own ways of thinking. A discussion is a cooperative effort and seeks resolution resulting in a peaceful end even when there are disagreements. Discussions help all to gain a better understanding of both sides of the issue.
Debates [for the purpose of this forum] are when posters only want to express themselves and discredit the opinions of others in a disrespectful way. Attacking someone else's ideas is not appropriate. Defending a belief that doesn't relate to the purpose or topics of this forum is not appropriate. Posts that flame or mock another recovery method, spiritual belief, sexual preference, race, disability, mental illness, moderator, or member etc.. are inappropriate. Off site links with similar content are also inappropriate.
Debates [for the purpose of this forum] are when posters only want to express themselves and discredit the opinions of others in a disrespectful way. Attacking someone else's ideas is not appropriate. Defending a belief that doesn't relate to the purpose or topics of this forum is not appropriate. Posts that flame or mock another recovery method, spiritual belief, sexual preference, race, disability, mental illness, moderator, or member etc.. are inappropriate. Off site links with similar content are also inappropriate.
If you think something is inappropriate, report it.
If you think the forum needs to change, take it up with Admin.
Personally, I don't think anythings broke here.
D
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by kilt
I think the article did a good job of providing hope for those who choose not to use AA, join and then leave AA or those who are now able to qualify for addiction treatment through the Affordable Care Act.
OK, I get it.
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