75 years of aa -time to admit we have a problem
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Originally Posted by caboblanco 
The twelve steps came from the oxford group...they weren't created for alcoholics...the core philosophies behind the twelve steps anyway
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I think the error that the writer and most people on SR make is thinking there is only one AA or only one interpretation of the steps. I spent years in the program attending many different groups and my experience was that it worked through social pressure and shaming. Others here describe a much warmer program than the one described--and one that might have worked better for me. Different versions of the program seem to be out there.
I think this is more than perception. The program is just done differently. The basic practices vary (e.g. what step a sponsor starts working with a sponsee on, what "anonymity" is, how newcomers are treated) and what is considered "support" differ.
I get suspicious about anyone who talks about 12-step recovery in a general way because it is specific. One of the greatest pieces of wisdom in the literature (one which was never completely adhered too in the groups I was part of) was that all we can do is share our own individual experience. We cannot speak for everyone or make general statements -- we can only talk about what we went through as individuals.
Maybe one day someone will find an effective way to study 12-step recovery. But I do not think it has been done yet.
I think this is more than perception. The program is just done differently. The basic practices vary (e.g. what step a sponsor starts working with a sponsee on, what "anonymity" is, how newcomers are treated) and what is considered "support" differ.
I get suspicious about anyone who talks about 12-step recovery in a general way because it is specific. One of the greatest pieces of wisdom in the literature (one which was never completely adhered too in the groups I was part of) was that all we can do is share our own individual experience. We cannot speak for everyone or make general statements -- we can only talk about what we went through as individuals.
Maybe one day someone will find an effective way to study 12-step recovery. But I do not think it has been done yet.
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Huntington Woods, Michigan
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In every piece of anti aa literature that has ever been presented to me, it implies that aa uses a "disease concept of alcoholism." Aa does not have its Own, nor does it endorse anyone else's disease concept of Alcoholism. Aa does not say alcoholism is a moral problem either. The treatment aa offers doesn't address alcoholism or drinking; it addresses the causes of it.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston Texas
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My hat is off to anyone who cares to follow any path to sobriety. Seriously, I simply am not REMOTELY interested in bashing any other program that saves lives.
I have, thanks to the program, learned to align my actions with my principles. Therefore, I NEVER go to any site purporting to help alcoholics and post negatively about their chosen path.
That is what I was taught was basic respect for others.
I have, thanks to the program, learned to align my actions with my principles. Therefore, I NEVER go to any site purporting to help alcoholics and post negatively about their chosen path.
That is what I was taught was basic respect for others.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
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After reading the OP, the cited article is hardly a scathing indictment of AA.
The thesis of the book the article reviews boils down to "you can't prove it works". The book author then makes wild leaps to the argument that lack of proof means we've been on the wrong path for 75 years, and goes on to tout a treatment method with a lower success rate than AA, and offers no treatment method that is more successful. That's got to be one of the worst "AA Sucks" attacks I've heard.
I'm not entirely sure that anything based on faith is going to be capable of direct methodological proof. What I do know is this: A lot of well-educated people I know and trust who are addicts themselves believe in AA, and that AA worked for them. Until something a lot better comes along, I'll be in the rooms. If you want, I'll even save you a seat.
The thesis of the book the article reviews boils down to "you can't prove it works". The book author then makes wild leaps to the argument that lack of proof means we've been on the wrong path for 75 years, and goes on to tout a treatment method with a lower success rate than AA, and offers no treatment method that is more successful. That's got to be one of the worst "AA Sucks" attacks I've heard.
I'm not entirely sure that anything based on faith is going to be capable of direct methodological proof. What I do know is this: A lot of well-educated people I know and trust who are addicts themselves believe in AA, and that AA worked for them. Until something a lot better comes along, I'll be in the rooms. If you want, I'll even save you a seat.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
AA helped save my life and maybe can be credited with saving my life. It was my only face 2 face lifeline in the early days and having a sponsor most definitely saved me form going back out numerous times.
That said, there are parts of AA I don't agree with. In particular, the Catholic overtones. This is not AA though, as the literature does not promote. This is the people not the program (my Home Group says the Lord's prayer for closing the meeting).
It was hard for me to take what I needed and still need and leave the rest but its great when you can. I can understand negative reactions to AA - I have had my fair share. But when I step back and really understand the program and the good and not confuse individual views, I see the logic.
People are complex and there is no one size fits all. AA and the BB actually state this. If someone has a better program, I am all for support in the development. I also think modern science is evolving faster than many had expected. So there are addendum's and this is good. We never want to close our minds to the potential that the solution is more dynamic than once thought.
In business I am always turned off by a CEO that talks negatively about his competition - it shows insecurity. I don;t believe you have to put something down to prop something else up.
That said, there are parts of AA I don't agree with. In particular, the Catholic overtones. This is not AA though, as the literature does not promote. This is the people not the program (my Home Group says the Lord's prayer for closing the meeting).
It was hard for me to take what I needed and still need and leave the rest but its great when you can. I can understand negative reactions to AA - I have had my fair share. But when I step back and really understand the program and the good and not confuse individual views, I see the logic.
People are complex and there is no one size fits all. AA and the BB actually state this. If someone has a better program, I am all for support in the development. I also think modern science is evolving faster than many had expected. So there are addendum's and this is good. We never want to close our minds to the potential that the solution is more dynamic than once thought.
In business I am always turned off by a CEO that talks negatively about his competition - it shows insecurity. I don;t believe you have to put something down to prop something else up.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
Im glad we have people on here with all different opinions though..don't you? they are free to speak their mind and their experience
If I was talking with an astronaut however who had actually been to space my opinion would hold much less importance with me as I would be more interested in knowing what it actually felt like to be in space rather than what I thought it was like!
If one has worked the steps in AA I'm all ears but if one hasn't then their opinion does not really carry much weight in a 12 step discussion. Maybe it would hold more weight in a discussion without a person involved who has actual real life experience in the topic?
Like you said its great we live in a society where anyone can say whatever they are thinking and be protected that this is there right, that doesn't make them right or sand though:-)
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Join Date: May 2013
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
Like you said its great we live in a society where anyone can say whatever they are thinking and be protected that this is there right, that doesn't make them right or sand though:-)
If memory serves me correctly, the last time we had members constantly coming over to the 12 step forum to "debate" 12 step programs, one member was banned and several members (that are missed) stopped posting here. I hope we learned a lesson from that and don't have to "go there" again.
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Location: WA
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In business I am always turned off by a CEO that talks negatively about his competition - it shows insecurity. I don;t believe you have to put something down to prop something else up.
Alcoholism kills, any tools available for the toolbox is a blessing and negativity as expressed by the writer just makes him look bad and his own agenda questionable.
I also use some techniques from another recovery system which have been very useful but that I almost overlooked because I was so turned off by the author's constant 12 steps bashing. My first thought was: "If his stuff is so good, why does he have to keep quacking about the steps".
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
Yeah I guess so, I've got an opinion on how I would feel if I was sent into space. I generally share this opinion when the topic comes up as a passing opinion though. I don't have any firm values or beliefs associated with going into space because I have never done it.
If I was talking with an astronaut however who had actually been to space my opinion would hold much less importance with me as I would be more interested in knowing what it actually felt like to be in space rather than what I thought it was like!
If one has worked the steps in AA I'm all ears but if one hasn't then their opinion does not really carry much weight in a 12 step discussion. Maybe it would hold more weight in a discussion without a person involved who has actual real life experience in the topic?
Like you said its great we live in a society where anyone can say whatever they are thinking and be protected that this is there right, that doesn't make them right or sand though:-)
If I was talking with an astronaut however who had actually been to space my opinion would hold much less importance with me as I would be more interested in knowing what it actually felt like to be in space rather than what I thought it was like!
If one has worked the steps in AA I'm all ears but if one hasn't then their opinion does not really carry much weight in a 12 step discussion. Maybe it would hold more weight in a discussion without a person involved who has actual real life experience in the topic?
Like you said its great we live in a society where anyone can say whatever they are thinking and be protected that this is there right, that doesn't make them right or sand though:-)
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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I find it ironic that the medical science community always points the finger at God when medical issues don't follow medical scientific theory. Every hospital I've been to have a chapel and members of the clergy on staff. I wonder if Mr Sceff would try to debunk the reliance of a Higher Power with one of his loved ones having surgery on a operating table or in the ICU.
AA is still in existence because it works for a lot of people. It's by no means the only way to recover from alcoholism or addiction. But, ignoring the fact that spirituality takes place all over the Arts/Science industry is just bad science.
AA is still in existence because it works for a lot of people. It's by no means the only way to recover from alcoholism or addiction. But, ignoring the fact that spirituality takes place all over the Arts/Science industry is just bad science.
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Join Date: May 2013
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
I have worked the steps in AA...i just like to clear that up...and don't tell me I didn't really work them...but my opinion is not relevant in a support section because it is for support for a particular philosophy
I have said my piece. I am not a moderator so if debating 12 step programs are OK here then so be it.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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Originally Posted by Music
There's no need to defend what works! I believe in the AA program and that's that! Opinions are like armpits. Everybody has a couple and some of them stink.
Sorry, could not resist
Rule 62
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Contrary to popular belief, most people recover from their addictions without any treatment—professional or self-help—regardless of whether the drug involved is alcohol, crack, methamphetamine, heroin, or cigarettes. One of the largest studies of recovery ever conducted found that, of those who had qualified for a diagnosis of alcoholism in the past year, only 25 percent still met the criteria for the disorder a year later. Despite this 75 percent recovery rate, only a quarter had gotten any type of help, including AA, and as many were now drinking in a low-risk manner as were abstinent.
Am wondering if all that this means is that alcoholism, along with other diagnoses such as ADHD and depression, are now being over-diagnosed….my belief is that AA has always, and continues to help, alcoholics as they are described in the BB
(a useful and enlightening distinction I was fortunate enough to learn about recently)
Am also wondering why Dr Dodes, in his position as a director of a treatment facility, where one might reasonably assume, he would have had at least some say in the direction and form of the clinical direction of treatment on offer, did not choose to alter that clinical direction during his tenure at Harvard, and build his own evidence base of the efficacy of his psychodynamic approach….rather than write a book about how it might work….now he no longer works there…
Oh, and evidence bases!! Wonderful stuff, all over the field I work in, and y’know what they say about statistics…
As others have said, no objection to whatever route works for anyone to be well, and hats off to anyone with the courage and commitment to address an addiction of any kind. Only that I’m never clear why alternatives to AA have to be presented in an undermining and contrary way, or even why they are presented so starkly as it’s either this way or it’s that way, alternatives – life is complex, and so is recovery, and plenty of people in AA (myself included) seek therapy in addition to going to AA, and explore many ways of understanding ourselves and our lives better.
There is too often a sense in commentaries of this kind that AA closes life down with its concepts of powerlessness (assumed to mean victim mentality) and handing it over (assumed to mean abdicating responsibility). All that this really shows is how fundamentally misunderstood those concepts can be.
One thing that does strike is that conventional psychiatry can eschew the value of spirituality as a dimension of mental health, thus the struggle with AA. True too is that psychodynamic approaches can run counter to the concept of powerlessness as expressed in a therapeutic dynamic. But they mean entirely different things, and thankfully, are neither meant to be nor can be 'scored' on a scientific basis to prove their validity. This could just indicate that some members of the medical fraternity may benefit from exploring the spiritual meaning of powerlessness before declaring it null and void as a route to recovery from addiction.
Interesting article, thanks for posting
Am wondering if all that this means is that alcoholism, along with other diagnoses such as ADHD and depression, are now being over-diagnosed….my belief is that AA has always, and continues to help, alcoholics as they are described in the BB
(a useful and enlightening distinction I was fortunate enough to learn about recently)
Am also wondering why Dr Dodes, in his position as a director of a treatment facility, where one might reasonably assume, he would have had at least some say in the direction and form of the clinical direction of treatment on offer, did not choose to alter that clinical direction during his tenure at Harvard, and build his own evidence base of the efficacy of his psychodynamic approach….rather than write a book about how it might work….now he no longer works there…
Oh, and evidence bases!! Wonderful stuff, all over the field I work in, and y’know what they say about statistics…
As others have said, no objection to whatever route works for anyone to be well, and hats off to anyone with the courage and commitment to address an addiction of any kind. Only that I’m never clear why alternatives to AA have to be presented in an undermining and contrary way, or even why they are presented so starkly as it’s either this way or it’s that way, alternatives – life is complex, and so is recovery, and plenty of people in AA (myself included) seek therapy in addition to going to AA, and explore many ways of understanding ourselves and our lives better.
There is too often a sense in commentaries of this kind that AA closes life down with its concepts of powerlessness (assumed to mean victim mentality) and handing it over (assumed to mean abdicating responsibility). All that this really shows is how fundamentally misunderstood those concepts can be.
One thing that does strike is that conventional psychiatry can eschew the value of spirituality as a dimension of mental health, thus the struggle with AA. True too is that psychodynamic approaches can run counter to the concept of powerlessness as expressed in a therapeutic dynamic. But they mean entirely different things, and thankfully, are neither meant to be nor can be 'scored' on a scientific basis to prove their validity. This could just indicate that some members of the medical fraternity may benefit from exploring the spiritual meaning of powerlessness before declaring it null and void as a route to recovery from addiction.
Interesting article, thanks for posting
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Just very briefly; I'll read that slab more closely when I have time.
I don't think AA knocks science. It also claims, not to be perfect and to be open to on going newer insights.
In fifty years of drinking I can't recall a doctor or psychiatrist ever raising alcohlism with me. I was given heaps of benzodiazepines which exacerbated my problems for 35 years.
I am not a Big Book thumper, nor am I a fan of Big Pharma...........
Just read a recent U.K medical report re ideas to get everyone over 50 on to statins----------------?
I don't think AA knocks science. It also claims, not to be perfect and to be open to on going newer insights.
In fifty years of drinking I can't recall a doctor or psychiatrist ever raising alcohlism with me. I was given heaps of benzodiazepines which exacerbated my problems for 35 years.
I am not a Big Book thumper, nor am I a fan of Big Pharma...........
Just read a recent U.K medical report re ideas to get everyone over 50 on to statins----------------?
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
I think Piperfish brings up an interesting issue. Alternatives to AA are often presented in a combative way. And often when they are not they are received as somehow bashing AA.
I have often wondered why both sides often take an either/or approach.
I have often wondered why both sides often take an either/or approach.
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