paulmh

My experience? I began to get well when I stopped holding on to the delusion that I had to have a higher power that I understood. In fact, I would argue that imagining I had to understand my Higher Power would be an expression of my alcoholism, rather than anything else. There are an infinite number of things in the universe I don't understand. Golf. Gardening. Annual Accounts. Moelcular Chemistry. Adam Sandler. Why would I be at ease with that, but imagine that I had to understand the First Principle?

augustwest

wow legna that is a tough one. i give her credit for being honest and she sure shot holes in the group of drunks business. hp is such a personal thing. she's going to have to figure that one out on her own i guess as group of drunks isn't working for her. maybe she can fake it. i truly don't know.

as an aside, as a fellow buddhist i like to think of god as guidance of dharma.

PaperDolls

Agreed.

Years ago I was atheist. Then agnostic with atheist leanings. Now I guess agnostic with 'believer' leanings.

What I know for sure is that I am not in charge. At this point, that's all I need to know.

legna

Perhaps I am misunderstanding here but I do not associate 'willing to go to any lengths' with pretending to believe in something you don't. I am Buddhist for instance. Telling me that unless I give up my belief system and am willing to believe in Allah (pbuh) than I am not willing to go to any lengths is, I believe, not what 'going to any lengths' means. Likewise, telling an atheist that unless he or she converts that he or she is lost and there is nothing we can do

I can see how this would work for some and I don't know why this girl I am speaking of is an atheist, but the majority of atheists are Taoist or Buddhist. Suggesting that an alcoholic Buddhist or Taoist's way wasn't working because of their belief is the same as suggesting that an alcoholic Christian became alcoholic because Christianity doesn't work.

Now if your previously atheist sponsor was simply atheist in name only, brought on by an anger or resentment toward a god that they actually believed in - just simply couldn't forgive...well then, a willingness to set aside old beliefs simply translates into a willingness to put aside a resentment which certainly would work.

No, there are no other options in this area.

legna

First of all - love your avatar.

Many of us don't live in an area that offers alternatives to AA, many more are court ordered and don't have a choice. Personally, I have chosen a program that told me that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking and whose main focus is to recover from alcoholism and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

I'm not being flippant, I think that this is often lost.

legna

Hi Mark,

I can only answer for myself, but I would give a resounding 'no'. I am a lifelong atheist who was studying for the monestary when I met my wife and the course of my life was changed. My spirituality remains the center of my life however. I am Buddhist and as such, do not believe in a god.

I don't want to go off topic but in the interest of communication and perhaps to offer an example which might clarify the issue for you:

I believe that I am made up of ego and consciousness. When the ego falls away, as often one experiences in mediation, what is left? When the ego falls away, where is this Legna person? All that is left is consciousness - that part of myself that is also in you. There is no 'self' which harbors fears, resentments, etc. Therefore, there is no self that wants to escape those fears and resentments etc., in a drink.

legna

Legna is a guy and so no, I won't be sponsoring her. But her story is not unique and I thought she illustrated her dilemma and that of others quite poignantly with her bills in the basket. Anywho, just thinking about the next man that walks through the door who is unable to articulate or demonstrate his frustration quite so well.

legna

You know, a frequently used line that I hear in AA meetings that always disturbs me is, "My HP was looking out for me even when I was out there drinking. I could have killed myself, or even someone else while I was out there drinking and driving. I could have been sent to prison for the rest of my life."

I've watched so many people die from this disease - does their HP play favorites by saving them but not others? My wife did kill someone out there while drunk. She got life without the possibility of parole. I always think to myself, that the person speaking must think that their HP loves them more. Incidentally, my wife is home now. We got life without the possibility of parole overturned to life with the possibility of parole and after twenty-four years, she's finally home.

legna

I know - and I get it. And at that point, the ol' Group of Drunks idea can work.

legna

It has been - very much so. Thank you.

legna

Always a pleasure to meet a fellow Buddhist on the path - I'm grateful that you weighed in.

Zencat

Hello Legna, I hope I can be of some assistance.

I was one those "angry at god" atheist at first when I became an X-Christen. I dropped that "angry" mess I began to follow Buddhism and chilled out about the G*d business. Recently I went back to atheism (implicit atheist) because its okay not to be a believer wile working the steps. And I feel like an atheist at my core, like hard core

Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA all the wile being an atheist. He wrote:Jimmy B is the man , I've been doing what he did with great results. I think I see why Jimmy chose to include GOOD as a HP.

We took A.A.'s Twelve Steps over to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province. We showed them to the priest at the head of it. After he had finished looking over the Twelve Steps, the monk said, "Why, these are fine! Since we as Buddhists don't understand God just as you do, it might be slightly more acceptable if you inserted the word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say in these Steps that it is God as you understand Him. That clears up the point for us. Yes, A.A.'s Twelve Steps will certainly be accepted by the Buddhists around here."
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, page 81.

GOOD works for me. I see "GOOD" as my Higher Potential because I'm achieving greater peace of mind and a diminishing ego along with more GOOD things. GOOD is a great HP for me. Good Orderly Direction is what I get with the amazing information about being an agnostic/atheist in AA.
I have far more acceptance of the Agnostic 12 Steps than try to do the necessary mental gymnastics in order to work the steps as written. The truth for me (and I see for other agnostics/atheist), that a psyche shift from working the AA or AA Agnostic steps lead to the promises and are/will recovered from alcoholism.

And from Bill W:

Wise word from Bill. I think its best to not chase off the agnostic/atheist types from AA. People do change and who knows, beliefs or non-beliefs can change too. Work the best one can with the non-believers. Look for some common ground and go from there.

As an X-Christan I can see the difficulty a believer and or spiritual person would have when working with a agnostic/atheist newbie. I think patience and forgiveness would be a good foundation when working with the agnostic/atheist peeps.

onlythetruth

It should be noted that most programs, and certainly SMART, are available online and can be accessed by anyone with a computer...just like SR.

legna

Loved hearing from you Zencat. I am very familiar with Bill's article in the Grapevine from which you quoted and recently read it at the group at which the girl in question offered her bills. I was struck by some of the suggestions to her (including more than one invitation to leave) and it was received with mixed reactions.

BadCompany

That is not a terribly odd situation. She is in a common bind a lot of people find themselves in, they ask things of God that God does not or will not deliver. I've prayed for a winning lottery ticket before. No dice. God is not a vending machine.

She has found that her concept of God is unworkable. Many of us do. Even the little sunbeams for Jesus run into this. She needs a different higher power. No one can work that out for her. I can share what works for me but that is all I can do.

muvinon

My own spiritual sensibility was validated when a monsignor shared that at 17 years sober, he realized that the "face" of his God within him truly was alot more like a high school principal......fairminded, judicious, and utterly uninterested in him as a person. I figured....ok, if a monsignor whose job it is to mentor people spiritually can get honest, then it's certainly ok if I don't choose some self-riteous position on this matter.

And the worst time I've ever had in recovery is when I tried to force myself to believe in what others believed.

My relationship with my higher power is what is central to my own ability to do much good in this world. If I trust, then I'm free to offer others help and support. If I'm not trusting, then I'm usually not worth a damn to anyone, even not to myself.

So, to thine own self be true. And I stay away from people who insist on their concept of God or, as one shared even here, "can't help those who are unwilling."

yikes! That so doesn't jibe with my notion of a spiritual perspective.

tomsteve

yes, but you prefer what ya need,eh?

tomsteve

questions similar to these can bea lil baffling and its hard for me to say what i would say when its on the spot. but when confronted by a similar question, what works best for me is to take a moment to ask my HP for wisdom and help to carry the message of AA, which the 12th step states,"...carry this message to alcoholics", being the message as it is in the big book.

now, heres is an opinion of what i would say with a lil time to think:
" it bothers me,too, to hear people say use the group, a cup, doorknob, or your dog as yer HP. what happens if the group collapses, the cup gets smashed, the building with the doorknob burns down, or the dog dies?does this mean you are doomed? well,no, because it is misinformation of what AA teaches.
beings how the 2nd step states we have to have a power greater than ourselves and B of the pertinent ideas is no human power could relieve us of alcoholism, and if you are like me and the ones who the BB is written about, you have the experience that nobody could restore you to sanity or was able to help you stop drinking, then, no, the group will not help.
now, if you would like, we can sit down with the big book and go through "we agnostics" and discuss what the big book says on the subject and find a solution."
or something to that effect.

Mark75

Awesome thread... Thanx legna and everyone.

paulmh

Thanks for the thread Legna, and what you said about the "God was looking out for me while I was drinking" cliche struck a chord with me. From my very early days I thought about all the people who die from this disease and that phrase always struck me as crass. It suggested that God picked and chose who lived and died. Once we accept that as a premise then I think we're into that whole ethical pseudo-calculus that leads people to say that disabled children are born to women who have previously had abortions.

Again, just sharing my own experience, and just trying to describe that, I feel like for all of my life I was unknowingly separated from... well, everything. For the sake of shorthand it was as if there was a separate Me, and there was everything else - the Other. The thing is, it's a delusion on my part to imagine that I'm separate. I am connected to reality whether I like it or not. I use its gravity, its oxygen, its temperature, its dimensions - and then all the other stuff like food and people and water and laptops. So to continue with the delusion that I am somehow separate is an unsustainable, unmanageable state. It's insanity. The first three steps help me to smash that delusion, and help me to acknowledge what is already true - that I am connected to the Other - indeed part of it - and that the illusion of separation is an insanity which I can only overcome by participating in the relationship with the Other that I have tried to deny for so long.

I don't have to understand all of the aspects of that connection - I just have to acknolwedge it, and acknowledge that by accepting the truth of that connection, I will be retruned to sanity. It's like everything else in the programme - I have to take the action that is required of me - and not be trying to decide what the outcomes of that will be.

Certainly that's what it feels like happened to me.