A question about refreshing AA practice
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,415
A question about refreshing AA practice
Hullo
I haven't been around for a while, I came by for a read and really enjoyed being immersed in some AA threads. It reminds me how much I used to benefit from coming to SR. And it got me thinking about my own recovery.
I've been sober for more than 9 years, and still active in AA but with a much smaller "a". I still do 12 step calls, still do service at a home group, at the moment as a GSR. I feel like I'm going through the motions though. I do one or two meetings a week - apart from that I have a very full life, family, study, businesses, maintenance of the damned house (!), hobbies.
I have some character defects that I feel like I've just given up on, but they affect me badly, particularly economically. I worked the steps a couple times with a couple different sponsors and benefitted each time. I have alot of friends in AA and outside of it, but I still seem to be able to be "dangerously anti-social" with some people and can struggle to have productive relationships, particularly in business. I have to say though that in so many areas of my life, and as a direct result of my recovery work, I feel and act and think so much better than I ever did before, and for that I'm grateful.
One of the things that I always liked about SR was that there seemed to be so many people who "had what I wanted" in terms of recovery. I find that quite hard to find in 3d AA experience here in the NW of the UK - but I guess if I'm not doing many different meetings I'm maybe not expanding my network of AAers who're really getting the benefit of recovery. Plus of course I'm not practicing as diligently as I could, so if I want to find good quality recovery in AA I could start with myself!
So I guess I'm dropping a thread in here - on my 16th wedding anniversary, a gold plated, bona fide miracle if ever there was one
- to ask - how can I refresh my recovery practice? Have people experienced a need to "kick again" - and how did you do it?
And please, don't spare the feelings, or think that anything is too obvious. I need to hear the obvious right now! And I've learned - slowly - over the years - that while tough love in the wrong hands can be a vindictive weapon (and one that I have had to make amends for wielding myself), that we should equally avoid "idiot compassion"
I haven't been around for a while, I came by for a read and really enjoyed being immersed in some AA threads. It reminds me how much I used to benefit from coming to SR. And it got me thinking about my own recovery.
I've been sober for more than 9 years, and still active in AA but with a much smaller "a". I still do 12 step calls, still do service at a home group, at the moment as a GSR. I feel like I'm going through the motions though. I do one or two meetings a week - apart from that I have a very full life, family, study, businesses, maintenance of the damned house (!), hobbies.
I have some character defects that I feel like I've just given up on, but they affect me badly, particularly economically. I worked the steps a couple times with a couple different sponsors and benefitted each time. I have alot of friends in AA and outside of it, but I still seem to be able to be "dangerously anti-social" with some people and can struggle to have productive relationships, particularly in business. I have to say though that in so many areas of my life, and as a direct result of my recovery work, I feel and act and think so much better than I ever did before, and for that I'm grateful.
One of the things that I always liked about SR was that there seemed to be so many people who "had what I wanted" in terms of recovery. I find that quite hard to find in 3d AA experience here in the NW of the UK - but I guess if I'm not doing many different meetings I'm maybe not expanding my network of AAers who're really getting the benefit of recovery. Plus of course I'm not practicing as diligently as I could, so if I want to find good quality recovery in AA I could start with myself!
So I guess I'm dropping a thread in here - on my 16th wedding anniversary, a gold plated, bona fide miracle if ever there was one
- to ask - how can I refresh my recovery practice? Have people experienced a need to "kick again" - and how did you do it? And please, don't spare the feelings, or think that anything is too obvious. I need to hear the obvious right now! And I've learned - slowly - over the years - that while tough love in the wrong hands can be a vindictive weapon (and one that I have had to make amends for wielding myself), that we should equally avoid "idiot compassion"
Last edited by paulmh; 09-05-2012 at 02:47 AM. Reason: spelling "idiot compassion" with two "d's" :)
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 1,003
I find that steps 6 and 7 are ongoing, so one thing I do is get real honest with myself about what I am doing, the consequence, the payoff for me, and then humbly ask for help. What I've noticed is that there's a period when I'm afraid to let go of the payoff and outgrow the defect.
What has happened so far, anyway, is that by getting honest about my part in situations I don't like and connecting those to the defect of character that's operating, I become willing to grow. And, of course, it never fails that the growth is improvement and good stuff.
Trusting the process.......works for me. And keeps me amazed and engaged.
What has happened so far, anyway, is that by getting honest about my part in situations I don't like and connecting those to the defect of character that's operating, I become willing to grow. And, of course, it never fails that the growth is improvement and good stuff.
Trusting the process.......works for me. And keeps me amazed and engaged.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
well, one thing i am really glad to read is ya dont want it sugar coated.
yes, goin to different meetings is good. i hear the same problem, but get different views.
now, iffen ya study the BB, it doesnt say we continuously work the steps and that is pointed out in step 12,"practice these principles in all our affairs." so, knowing the principles behind each step makes it as simple as it can be.
the BB also tells us this:
It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.
rest on my laurels- to rely on past achievements instead of working to maintain and advance ones spiritual life.
have you done anything to advance spiritually?
IMO, ya got complacent. good to see ya caught it before ya drank, but time to put on the tightie whities, suck em up, and get into action.
yes, goin to different meetings is good. i hear the same problem, but get different views.
now, iffen ya study the BB, it doesnt say we continuously work the steps and that is pointed out in step 12,"practice these principles in all our affairs." so, knowing the principles behind each step makes it as simple as it can be.
the BB also tells us this:
It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.
rest on my laurels- to rely on past achievements instead of working to maintain and advance ones spiritual life.
have you done anything to advance spiritually?
IMO, ya got complacent. good to see ya caught it before ya drank, but time to put on the tightie whities, suck em up, and get into action.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
First off, the most important thing for me when I realize things are getting stale is to be extra-committed to my prayer and meditation, because when this happens I know that God wants me to be changing something up, and that means that I have to be listening and watching carefully to whatever direction I'm going to be getting.
Meetings: I agree with you that new meetings would be a good idea....and if you go to a new meeting a few times and don't feel "fed" by it, find a different one...especially at times like these, I find that it is not a good idea for me to be trying to fix or save a meeting because that's just a good excuse for me to stop paying attention to what is -- or is not, as the case might be -- going on with me.
Same thing with sponsees. New sponsees who are really desperate and serious about doing the work are like the #1 blessing for me because there is no other place in my life where I feel the presence of God -- His direction, His power, His "touch" -- as powerfully and as consistently as when I'm working with sponsees.....and because of that, a lot of the time when I need some direction as to how to change-up my program/spiritual practice, it'll come to me when working with others. However, same thing holds for me as with meetings, I need not to be wasting my time with people who are half-measuring.
Meditation: about 2 years ago I started going to an 11th meeting that starts with 15 minutes of silent meditation, and that has really boosted my meditation practice. There's just something very powerful about meditating in a group (and it was something I had not done since junior high!). Also, the people who attend that meeting regularly are hardcore AA and hardcore spiritual, and also, since it's a very diverse group, there's a lot of good E,S,&H to be had. At this point, there is also another 3rd and 11th Step meeting that just started about 6 months ago and I'm going to that, too, now. My sponsor and I are also thinking about starting a, inter-program Sunday "Hour of Power" meeting, as per the one in Little Rock, Ark. (If you don't have any meetings like this around, you could start one!)
Speaker CDs. There is a good thread on this site with lots of speaker recommendations. I know for myself when I started listening to Mark Houston and Joe Hawk, my program got like super-charged. I have a speaker recommendation letter that I give to folks who ask me for recommendations; I'll paste it into this thread later. Just as a general rule, folks who are associated with the Fellowship of the Spirit movement are usually awesome.
Steel on Steel. For myself, I had some trepidation around this, and, even after I got over it, it took awhile to get a group together (Basically you need to find 4 people seriously committed to post-doc-level recovery, who can manage to get together for 2-3 hours once a month). But we've been together now since December and it has been amazing. (I have a file about that, too, and if you want to see it, PM me with an e-mail address.)
The character defects thing. This really stood out for me in your post, and I kinda got the feeling that you are still, on some level, harboring the belief that you are supposed to somehow get rid of your character defects...and, after nine years of approaching Steps 6 & 7 from that perspective, I'm really not surprised that you feel run-down and un-enthused. (Pretty much everything that I'm going to be saying about this from here on is plagiarized from Don M. and I have a 30-minute CD of his on 6 & 7 that I can send you, if you like. That CD changed my life -- no lie and no exaggeration. )
The thing here is, it is not your job or your responsibility to get rid of your character defects...and, in fact, you cannot possibly do so (Our trying to get of them actually makes them more persistent because what we give our energy to grows!) In the 7th Step we ask God to remove "those defects that stand in the way of our usefulness to Him and our fellows." Only God knows which those are and when they need to be removed. It is not our place to decide what needs to be removed, or how and when, let alone to try to make it happen. And when we try to do so, we are back to playing God. Our part is just to keep connected with and trusting God, stay present in the here and now, and do the next right thing. Whenever I'm doing anything outside of that simple bit, I'm in my ego and in God's way....and the character defects aren't going anywhere, because God is a gentleman and is never going to force Himself and His will on me.
Here's the deal (and this part is mine, not Don's): I really, truly believe that approaching Steps 6 & 7 from this perspective is one of the most important factors in allowing me to be happy, joyous and free....and I really truly believe that God wants us to be happy, joyous and free. I cannot possible be happy, joyous and free if I am trying to do a job that is impossible for me, in a manner that is cutting me off from God, and that causes me to constantly judge myself as a failure because I'm not getting the job done. So, the rock that I have to drop here is not my character defects themselves -- it is my false belief that I am the one who's supposed to be somehow causing them to be removed. Believing and acting in accordance with the belief that I have to responsibility to do, and that my recovery depends on my doing, something I am incapable of doing is a huge burden, pretty much guaranteed to eventually cause me to be run-down and un-enthused.
Just give all that cr*p to God and stay in the moment doing the next right thing, bit by bit as it comes along and I'd be willing to bet you'll feel a lot better!
God bless!
freya
Meetings: I agree with you that new meetings would be a good idea....and if you go to a new meeting a few times and don't feel "fed" by it, find a different one...especially at times like these, I find that it is not a good idea for me to be trying to fix or save a meeting because that's just a good excuse for me to stop paying attention to what is -- or is not, as the case might be -- going on with me.
Same thing with sponsees. New sponsees who are really desperate and serious about doing the work are like the #1 blessing for me because there is no other place in my life where I feel the presence of God -- His direction, His power, His "touch" -- as powerfully and as consistently as when I'm working with sponsees.....and because of that, a lot of the time when I need some direction as to how to change-up my program/spiritual practice, it'll come to me when working with others. However, same thing holds for me as with meetings, I need not to be wasting my time with people who are half-measuring.
Meditation: about 2 years ago I started going to an 11th meeting that starts with 15 minutes of silent meditation, and that has really boosted my meditation practice. There's just something very powerful about meditating in a group (and it was something I had not done since junior high!). Also, the people who attend that meeting regularly are hardcore AA and hardcore spiritual, and also, since it's a very diverse group, there's a lot of good E,S,&H to be had. At this point, there is also another 3rd and 11th Step meeting that just started about 6 months ago and I'm going to that, too, now. My sponsor and I are also thinking about starting a, inter-program Sunday "Hour of Power" meeting, as per the one in Little Rock, Ark. (If you don't have any meetings like this around, you could start one!)
Speaker CDs. There is a good thread on this site with lots of speaker recommendations. I know for myself when I started listening to Mark Houston and Joe Hawk, my program got like super-charged. I have a speaker recommendation letter that I give to folks who ask me for recommendations; I'll paste it into this thread later. Just as a general rule, folks who are associated with the Fellowship of the Spirit movement are usually awesome.
Steel on Steel. For myself, I had some trepidation around this, and, even after I got over it, it took awhile to get a group together (Basically you need to find 4 people seriously committed to post-doc-level recovery, who can manage to get together for 2-3 hours once a month). But we've been together now since December and it has been amazing. (I have a file about that, too, and if you want to see it, PM me with an e-mail address.)
The character defects thing. This really stood out for me in your post, and I kinda got the feeling that you are still, on some level, harboring the belief that you are supposed to somehow get rid of your character defects...and, after nine years of approaching Steps 6 & 7 from that perspective, I'm really not surprised that you feel run-down and un-enthused. (Pretty much everything that I'm going to be saying about this from here on is plagiarized from Don M. and I have a 30-minute CD of his on 6 & 7 that I can send you, if you like. That CD changed my life -- no lie and no exaggeration. )
The thing here is, it is not your job or your responsibility to get rid of your character defects...and, in fact, you cannot possibly do so (Our trying to get of them actually makes them more persistent because what we give our energy to grows!) In the 7th Step we ask God to remove "those defects that stand in the way of our usefulness to Him and our fellows." Only God knows which those are and when they need to be removed. It is not our place to decide what needs to be removed, or how and when, let alone to try to make it happen. And when we try to do so, we are back to playing God. Our part is just to keep connected with and trusting God, stay present in the here and now, and do the next right thing. Whenever I'm doing anything outside of that simple bit, I'm in my ego and in God's way....and the character defects aren't going anywhere, because God is a gentleman and is never going to force Himself and His will on me.
Here's the deal (and this part is mine, not Don's): I really, truly believe that approaching Steps 6 & 7 from this perspective is one of the most important factors in allowing me to be happy, joyous and free....and I really truly believe that God wants us to be happy, joyous and free. I cannot possible be happy, joyous and free if I am trying to do a job that is impossible for me, in a manner that is cutting me off from God, and that causes me to constantly judge myself as a failure because I'm not getting the job done. So, the rock that I have to drop here is not my character defects themselves -- it is my false belief that I am the one who's supposed to be somehow causing them to be removed. Believing and acting in accordance with the belief that I have to responsibility to do, and that my recovery depends on my doing, something I am incapable of doing is a huge burden, pretty much guaranteed to eventually cause me to be run-down and un-enthused.
Just give all that cr*p to God and stay in the moment doing the next right thing, bit by bit as it comes along and I'd be willing to bet you'll feel a lot better!
God bless!
freya
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
Hey Paul, long time no see......shaun(trucker).
I think the post from Freya holds some important information, and don't have much to add.
Things became pretty dark for me at 10ish years.
Long and short,..i went through the work again, and had a new experience.
I see pretty clearly how i fell asleep, ..God took second place to some other idols.....money , work, .etc......some dishonesty...took a while but i wished for the end eventually, all over again without booze.
Wide awake its easy to see, god became nothing, not everything.
Freya mentioned meditation....here i find totally new experiences...old mantras wore out by ten years lol.
I grabbed a pretty hare core thumper ....thinking i will just brush up on 2/3...... even though 10,11,12 hadn't figure in my life for quite a while.
10 resentments and 16 fears later..... i began to see the width of the problem
Be interested to hear your conclusions .
I think the post from Freya holds some important information, and don't have much to add.
Things became pretty dark for me at 10ish years.
Long and short,..i went through the work again, and had a new experience.
I see pretty clearly how i fell asleep, ..God took second place to some other idols.....money , work, .etc......some dishonesty...took a while but i wished for the end eventually, all over again without booze.
Wide awake its easy to see, god became nothing, not everything.
Freya mentioned meditation....here i find totally new experiences...old mantras wore out by ten years lol.
I grabbed a pretty hare core thumper ....thinking i will just brush up on 2/3...... even though 10,11,12 hadn't figure in my life for quite a while.
10 resentments and 16 fears later..... i began to see the width of the problem
Be interested to hear your conclusions .
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
A couple more thoughts:
Have you ever heard anyone speak about Consolation and Desolation? Basically, these are the technical theological (original Jesuit terminology, I think) terms that refer to how we feel about our current spiritual condition at any given time. We are in Consolation when we feel closely connected to God, and great about our spiritual practice and know that it's "working," and and everything feels good; we are in desolation whenever we feel disconnected from God and bored with or resentful of our spiritual practice, and are feeling like it is not working and like everything is wrong and life just sucks. The important thing to know, though, is that, assuming that our spiritual practice has not changed (i.e. that we are still doing what we have committed to do, when and as we have committed to doing it) our actual spiritual condition remains the same whether we "feel" consolate or desolate.
So, for example, the first few years in program, pretty much once a month I would show up at my homegroup meeting stressing about how I was PMSing and, therefore, my spiritual condition was a mess for X# of days of the month. And, actually, that really did kinda freak me out and scare me because it seemed like so dangerous (and unfair) that my spiritual condition could be totally at the mercy of hormones with there being nothing I could do about it.
Finally, one of my HG members (who used to be priest and has been sober longer than God) got tired of listening to me and explained to me that, actually, my spiritual condition was not at risk at all -- no matter how it felt to me -- as long as I continued to do the things that I was supposed to be doing to maintain it....and that desolation (regardless of how it occurs or why or for how long) is only a problem/threat (spiritually) if it gets me so down and/or doubtful and/or distracted that I slack-off on my spiritual practice stuff -- which, of course, I can be tempted to do when I'm in desolation.
Anyways, it's just been very helpful to me to understand this, and it has allowed me to "deal" with desolate times a lot better and in trust that, as long as I keep doing my stuff and paying attention to what else I might be being lead to do, then it'll pass in God's time. Also, looking back now, I can see that most of the time, when the desolate time is about something more significant than my hormones, I am actually being set-up / lead to change-up, grow, make some shifts in my actual spiritual practice stuff in some way. So, almost always those times lead to greater growth and better, stronger, deeper connection with HP. (Very much like "Dark Night of the Soul" times, although those are, of course, the most extreme examples.)
Fr. Tom W. has some really good talks in which he discusses this.
I think, for me, one thing that has been like so, so important for me related to this (and to pretty much anything that gets brought to my attention as something for me to "work on" in program) is the thing that Emmet Fox says all the time about how, on the spiritual level, effort and force defeat themselves...i.e. I can't force it, and I can't "figure it out," and my trying hysterically and/or obsessively to do either or both of those things actually only make things worse/harder and keeps me from "getting" whatever resolution God has out there for me.
My part in it all is just being aware that right now I'm engaged with X, and paying attention so that I don't miss all the little things that are coming up around me / being put in my path related to X right now, and going along in as much peace and trust as I can muster (and at this point that's usually quite a bit) gathering up all the pieces that God lays before me, and then, when I've got them all without even realizing it, all of a sudden, seemingly out of nowhere, He puts the puzzle together for me in a way that I would never be able to myself.
freya
P.S....and here's the speaker recommendation thing:
Here's how to find links to my two favorite on-line BB/Step study talks. As I never tire of telling people, my most favorite speaker in the universe is Scott L. from Nashville. He has a series of talks that he does with Bob D. of Las Vegas, and they are awesome. To find them go to:
xa_speakers.org
Type " fots " in the search box. It will bring up a long list of Fellowship of the Spirit talks. Maybe like 2/3 of the way down the list, you will see a bunch that are listed as " scott-l-bob-d-fots2008 ". This series goes through all the Steps -- out of the BB, and also includes a couple of guided meditations by Scott and his wife Linda. Linda's Al-Anon story, which is very good, is also included.
(The xa site is a bit weird and not-overly-sophisticated, so you will usually have better results the less specific/detailed you make your search, i.e: you will get better results with "fots" than with "Fellowship of the Spirit"; better results with "scott l" than with "scott l and bob d".)
If you want to start with just Scott’s story, then search with " scott l " and, when the list comes up, look for his "Founders' Day" talk.
Also, if you search xa for "stateline" you will pull up a bunch of talks by a variety of usually excellent speakers speaking at an annual event organized by Bob D. and called the Stateline Retreat. Almost always anything associated with Bob, with Stateline, or with the Fellowship of the Spirit people out of Denver is gonna be very, very good.
Next, if you really want to hear some totally over-the-top, mind-blowing stuff -- especially when it comes to spirituality and the Steps, again working from the BB -- search for " mark h ", then look for a series of talks listed as " mark-h-joe-h-prescott-2003 ". These guys are hard-core spiritual, like almost bordering on ascetic in some senses....anyways, it's very powerful stuff....and NO ONE I've ever heard has a better "take" on the necessity of an absolute, deep, and fresh First Step experience. Also...just an added perk if you care about this kinda stuff...Joe has absolutely the most sexy voice of any AA speaker I've ever heard!
If you really like him, and/or his voice, Joe also has a great solo talk from Santa Monica (his home town before he died) in 2004. If you search “ joe h “ and scroll down to near the end of the list, you will find that, too.
[Here's one of the legends of Joe H(awk): Joe H. is a millionaire recluse recovered alcoholic who lives in the mountains above Santa Monica and only comes down periodically to visit his homegroup and impart direct revelations from Bill W. and Dr. Bob. (Joe, of course, did not encourage or appreciate this type of BS, but, personally, I think it's kinda fun and interesting to know about!)]
Mark H(ouston) died in 2010, and for the few years before his death, he ran a recovery center (down in TX). If you go to the link below you can find, on the center's site, some of his talks that he considered the best:
Talks By Mark Houston | Texas Drug Rehab Center | Addiction Recovery | Alcohol Treatment Austin
(Carrie and I really like the "Unplugged" one.)
Finally, and I have not listened to this particular talk myself, but I recommended Sandy B. -- just in general and on the basis of several talks of his that I have listened to -- to some of my sponsees, and they listened to his story and liked him so much they went on-line and found this:
Again, on xa:
Search for " sandy b '. About 1/2 way down the list of his talks, you'll find " sandy-b-bob-d-thereisasolution " . I think it's 4-set series of talks, and, based on what I've heard and on what I know about both the speakers from other talks of theirs, they should be great -- I just haven't had time to listen to them yet.
You might have already heard (or read because there is a transcript of the weekend available in book form) Chuck C's "A New Pair of Glasses" talks, but, if you haven't, this talk is a classic and absolutely worth a listen, and it is available on xa also. (Personally, I really preferred reading this and like having it in marked-up book form, and you can usually find copies available on-line – or from the Dicobe people – for $5 or $6, new.)
Some other awesome speakers to look for on xa are: Don P(ritts) from Colorado, Peter M. from Florida, Earl H., Charlie P., Sharon C. from Los Angelos, Angie P. (from Cincinatti), Kerry C. from NJ, Fr. Tom W. from CA, Fr. Paul M. from Chicago, Frank McQ from Little Rock, Ark., Polly P. from CA., and, of course, Don M., from Louisville. I personally love listening to Clancy I., too, but I know that a lot of people find him to be irritating -- which, in all honesty, he is -- but, for me, the good really far outweighs the irritating. I actually find the irritating things about him kind of amusing and endearing.....and, seriously, he's been sober for 8 months longer than I've been alive, so I tend to think I should be able to get something out of what he has to say!
Also, Keith D. has an awesome story and message. You can find him by googling "dog on the roof men's stag AA." On the site's main page there will be links to speaker pages for AAs and Al-Anons associated with their clubhouse. You can find some of Keith's talks on the AA speaker page; his wife, Sue, also has her Al-Anon Story and a series of Al-Anon Step-Study talks on that site.
Other good Al-Anon speakers for whom you can search on xa are: Stephanie B.(Granite Scholes, Texas); Bo T. (W. Brocton, AL); Mary Pearl (N. Little Rock, Ark); Blanch M. (Salado, TX).
Have you ever heard anyone speak about Consolation and Desolation? Basically, these are the technical theological (original Jesuit terminology, I think) terms that refer to how we feel about our current spiritual condition at any given time. We are in Consolation when we feel closely connected to God, and great about our spiritual practice and know that it's "working," and and everything feels good; we are in desolation whenever we feel disconnected from God and bored with or resentful of our spiritual practice, and are feeling like it is not working and like everything is wrong and life just sucks. The important thing to know, though, is that, assuming that our spiritual practice has not changed (i.e. that we are still doing what we have committed to do, when and as we have committed to doing it) our actual spiritual condition remains the same whether we "feel" consolate or desolate.
So, for example, the first few years in program, pretty much once a month I would show up at my homegroup meeting stressing about how I was PMSing and, therefore, my spiritual condition was a mess for X# of days of the month. And, actually, that really did kinda freak me out and scare me because it seemed like so dangerous (and unfair) that my spiritual condition could be totally at the mercy of hormones with there being nothing I could do about it.
Finally, one of my HG members (who used to be priest and has been sober longer than God) got tired of listening to me and explained to me that, actually, my spiritual condition was not at risk at all -- no matter how it felt to me -- as long as I continued to do the things that I was supposed to be doing to maintain it....and that desolation (regardless of how it occurs or why or for how long) is only a problem/threat (spiritually) if it gets me so down and/or doubtful and/or distracted that I slack-off on my spiritual practice stuff -- which, of course, I can be tempted to do when I'm in desolation.
Anyways, it's just been very helpful to me to understand this, and it has allowed me to "deal" with desolate times a lot better and in trust that, as long as I keep doing my stuff and paying attention to what else I might be being lead to do, then it'll pass in God's time. Also, looking back now, I can see that most of the time, when the desolate time is about something more significant than my hormones, I am actually being set-up / lead to change-up, grow, make some shifts in my actual spiritual practice stuff in some way. So, almost always those times lead to greater growth and better, stronger, deeper connection with HP. (Very much like "Dark Night of the Soul" times, although those are, of course, the most extreme examples.)
Fr. Tom W. has some really good talks in which he discusses this.
I think, for me, one thing that has been like so, so important for me related to this (and to pretty much anything that gets brought to my attention as something for me to "work on" in program) is the thing that Emmet Fox says all the time about how, on the spiritual level, effort and force defeat themselves...i.e. I can't force it, and I can't "figure it out," and my trying hysterically and/or obsessively to do either or both of those things actually only make things worse/harder and keeps me from "getting" whatever resolution God has out there for me.
My part in it all is just being aware that right now I'm engaged with X, and paying attention so that I don't miss all the little things that are coming up around me / being put in my path related to X right now, and going along in as much peace and trust as I can muster (and at this point that's usually quite a bit) gathering up all the pieces that God lays before me, and then, when I've got them all without even realizing it, all of a sudden, seemingly out of nowhere, He puts the puzzle together for me in a way that I would never be able to myself.
freya
P.S....and here's the speaker recommendation thing:
Here's how to find links to my two favorite on-line BB/Step study talks. As I never tire of telling people, my most favorite speaker in the universe is Scott L. from Nashville. He has a series of talks that he does with Bob D. of Las Vegas, and they are awesome. To find them go to:
xa_speakers.org
Type " fots " in the search box. It will bring up a long list of Fellowship of the Spirit talks. Maybe like 2/3 of the way down the list, you will see a bunch that are listed as " scott-l-bob-d-fots2008 ". This series goes through all the Steps -- out of the BB, and also includes a couple of guided meditations by Scott and his wife Linda. Linda's Al-Anon story, which is very good, is also included.
(The xa site is a bit weird and not-overly-sophisticated, so you will usually have better results the less specific/detailed you make your search, i.e: you will get better results with "fots" than with "Fellowship of the Spirit"; better results with "scott l" than with "scott l and bob d".)
If you want to start with just Scott’s story, then search with " scott l " and, when the list comes up, look for his "Founders' Day" talk.
Also, if you search xa for "stateline" you will pull up a bunch of talks by a variety of usually excellent speakers speaking at an annual event organized by Bob D. and called the Stateline Retreat. Almost always anything associated with Bob, with Stateline, or with the Fellowship of the Spirit people out of Denver is gonna be very, very good.
Next, if you really want to hear some totally over-the-top, mind-blowing stuff -- especially when it comes to spirituality and the Steps, again working from the BB -- search for " mark h ", then look for a series of talks listed as " mark-h-joe-h-prescott-2003 ". These guys are hard-core spiritual, like almost bordering on ascetic in some senses....anyways, it's very powerful stuff....and NO ONE I've ever heard has a better "take" on the necessity of an absolute, deep, and fresh First Step experience. Also...just an added perk if you care about this kinda stuff...Joe has absolutely the most sexy voice of any AA speaker I've ever heard!
If you really like him, and/or his voice, Joe also has a great solo talk from Santa Monica (his home town before he died) in 2004. If you search “ joe h “ and scroll down to near the end of the list, you will find that, too.
[Here's one of the legends of Joe H(awk): Joe H. is a millionaire recluse recovered alcoholic who lives in the mountains above Santa Monica and only comes down periodically to visit his homegroup and impart direct revelations from Bill W. and Dr. Bob. (Joe, of course, did not encourage or appreciate this type of BS, but, personally, I think it's kinda fun and interesting to know about!)]
Mark H(ouston) died in 2010, and for the few years before his death, he ran a recovery center (down in TX). If you go to the link below you can find, on the center's site, some of his talks that he considered the best:
Talks By Mark Houston | Texas Drug Rehab Center | Addiction Recovery | Alcohol Treatment Austin
(Carrie and I really like the "Unplugged" one.)
Finally, and I have not listened to this particular talk myself, but I recommended Sandy B. -- just in general and on the basis of several talks of his that I have listened to -- to some of my sponsees, and they listened to his story and liked him so much they went on-line and found this:
Again, on xa:
Search for " sandy b '. About 1/2 way down the list of his talks, you'll find " sandy-b-bob-d-thereisasolution " . I think it's 4-set series of talks, and, based on what I've heard and on what I know about both the speakers from other talks of theirs, they should be great -- I just haven't had time to listen to them yet.
You might have already heard (or read because there is a transcript of the weekend available in book form) Chuck C's "A New Pair of Glasses" talks, but, if you haven't, this talk is a classic and absolutely worth a listen, and it is available on xa also. (Personally, I really preferred reading this and like having it in marked-up book form, and you can usually find copies available on-line – or from the Dicobe people – for $5 or $6, new.)
Some other awesome speakers to look for on xa are: Don P(ritts) from Colorado, Peter M. from Florida, Earl H., Charlie P., Sharon C. from Los Angelos, Angie P. (from Cincinatti), Kerry C. from NJ, Fr. Tom W. from CA, Fr. Paul M. from Chicago, Frank McQ from Little Rock, Ark., Polly P. from CA., and, of course, Don M., from Louisville. I personally love listening to Clancy I., too, but I know that a lot of people find him to be irritating -- which, in all honesty, he is -- but, for me, the good really far outweighs the irritating. I actually find the irritating things about him kind of amusing and endearing.....and, seriously, he's been sober for 8 months longer than I've been alive, so I tend to think I should be able to get something out of what he has to say!
Also, Keith D. has an awesome story and message. You can find him by googling "dog on the roof men's stag AA." On the site's main page there will be links to speaker pages for AAs and Al-Anons associated with their clubhouse. You can find some of Keith's talks on the AA speaker page; his wife, Sue, also has her Al-Anon Story and a series of Al-Anon Step-Study talks on that site.
Other good Al-Anon speakers for whom you can search on xa are: Stephanie B.(Granite Scholes, Texas); Bo T. (W. Brocton, AL); Mary Pearl (N. Little Rock, Ark); Blanch M. (Salado, TX).
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Happy anniverasry to you and your family Paul....
To keep my recovery pink cloud flying high...I find a newcomer
who is interested in recovery.
Glad to see you again...Welcome back....
To keep my recovery pink cloud flying high...I find a newcomer
who is interested in recovery.
Glad to see you again...Welcome back....
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,415
Many, many thanks to everyone for taking the time to write. You'll all know that just by letting me share, and then being willing to share in return, I now feel a lot closer to the centre of the bed. I was thinking overnight about what precisely it was that I was feeling and I came up with - I think I feel happy joyous and free, and restless irritable and discontent - all at the same time!
It's a perennial problem for me, in that I seem to go through waves of having some reasonable spiritual practice and then letting it go. I do this - I think - because I can't seem to shake off having expectations about where my spiritual practice could or should take me - and when it doesn't, I then get lazy again. Problems build up, and I have to dig in to find that practice again.
I cast around outside of AA trying to expand my spiritual practice - but can often end up just reading Marcus Aurelius or some such and not doing anything. Time and again it is AA that offers me the chance to take action. And again today your kind words remind me that working with others is a sure way to refresh my practice.
Thanks again. There is a guy at my home group who has been seeking me out, I think he might be looking for someone to work with.
Freya, I'm going to spend some time over the next coupe days following up your suggested reading. I'll also drop you a line with my email addy.
It's a perennial problem for me, in that I seem to go through waves of having some reasonable spiritual practice and then letting it go. I do this - I think - because I can't seem to shake off having expectations about where my spiritual practice could or should take me - and when it doesn't, I then get lazy again. Problems build up, and I have to dig in to find that practice again.
I cast around outside of AA trying to expand my spiritual practice - but can often end up just reading Marcus Aurelius or some such and not doing anything. Time and again it is AA that offers me the chance to take action. And again today your kind words remind me that working with others is a sure way to refresh my practice.
Thanks again. There is a guy at my home group who has been seeking me out, I think he might be looking for someone to work with.
Freya, I'm going to spend some time over the next coupe days following up your suggested reading. I'll also drop you a line with my email addy.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
I remember feeling the same way about 10 years in when I so called had my $h@t together in my life yet I couldn't figure out where I was in recovery. My sponsor pointed out that there comes a time when you stop getting sober and just living sober. Once I could accept that my Higher Power most likely was not going to remove my defects of character, and I had to live with them, with Gods help and not alcohol, it made life a lot easier.
Also accepting that AA and the fellowship was going to be part of my life along with my wife and kids, family, career, friends, the community, hobbies, etc., I just had to find a comfortable balance between them all. It is not easy.
I've been at a point in my life where meetings and involvement with AA has been tough especially with a job with being available 24 hours a day and long hours. It makes it tough to make a commitment. I tried my best. It didn't work out, so I accept it and move on. Now that my youngest child started college, I thought I'd have more time, but that hasn't happened, yet. I got sober so that I can live my life. There is more to life than service just to AA, and service to others doesn't have to be only in AA. If your're sober, living and worrying that your not working your program hard enough, then you have nothing to worry about.
Also accepting that AA and the fellowship was going to be part of my life along with my wife and kids, family, career, friends, the community, hobbies, etc., I just had to find a comfortable balance between them all. It is not easy.
I've been at a point in my life where meetings and involvement with AA has been tough especially with a job with being available 24 hours a day and long hours. It makes it tough to make a commitment. I tried my best. It didn't work out, so I accept it and move on. Now that my youngest child started college, I thought I'd have more time, but that hasn't happened, yet. I got sober so that I can live my life. There is more to life than service just to AA, and service to others doesn't have to be only in AA. If your're sober, living and worrying that your not working your program hard enough, then you have nothing to worry about.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,415
This, from Freya, has been rolling around my head since I read it -
That really resonates with me. I forget that its about doing the right thing and trusting in my HP no matter what. I begin to second guess "progress" or "serenity" and then find it all too easy to slack off.
Finally, one of my HG members (who used to be priest and has been sober longer than God) got tired of listening to me and explained to me that, actually, my spiritual condition was not at risk at all -- no matter how it felt to me -- as long as I continued to do the things that I was supposed to be doing to maintain it....and that desolation (regardless of how it occurs or why or for how long) is only a problem/threat (spiritually) if it gets me so down and/or doubtful and/or distracted that I slack-off on my spiritual practice stuff -- which, of course, I can be tempted to do when I'm in desolation.
Spiritual Learner
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 165
The answers are right in front of us, we know what we need to do but we do need help from f2f people and SR to guide us. One thing me, myself, and I can screw up anything even with some time under my belt. We may be the captain of our boats but we need to loisten to suggestions from others to keep the boat on coarse. Reading DROP the Rock has helped put a fire under me, or just getting active in my life/ sobriety, and looking at that critical voice where does it come from, is there any validity to it or am I reacting to it. Thank you for the topic amd I will look at me and see where I can jump start my world also.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by paulmh 
Hullo
I haven't been around for a while, I came by for a read and really enjoyed being immersed in some AA threads. It reminds me how much I used to benefit from coming to SR. And it got me thinking about my own recovery.
I've been sober for more than 9 years, and still active in AA but with a much smaller "a". I still do 12 step calls, still do service at a home group, at the moment as a GSR. I feel like I'm going through the motions though. I do one or two meetings a week - apart from that I have a very full life, family, study, businesses, maintenance of the damned house (!), hobbies.
I have some character defects that I feel like I've just given up on, but they affect me badly, particularly economically. I worked the steps a couple times with a couple different sponsors and benefitted each time. I have alot of friends in AA and outside of it, but I still seem to be able to be "dangerously anti-social" with some people and can struggle to have productive relationships, particularly in business. I have to say though that in so many areas of my life, and as a direct result of my recovery work, I feel and act and think so much better than I ever did before, and for that I'm grateful.
One of the things that I always liked about SR was that there seemed to be so many people who "had what I wanted" in terms of recovery. I find that quite hard to find in 3d AA experience here in the NW of the UK - but I guess if I'm not doing many different meetings I'm maybe not expanding my network of AAers who're really getting the benefit of recovery. Plus of course I'm not practicing as diligently as I could, so if I want to find good quality recovery in AA I could start with myself!
So I guess I'm dropping a thread in here - on my 16th wedding anniversary, a gold plated, bona fide miracle if ever there was one - to ask - how can I refresh my recovery practice? Have people experienced a need to "kick again" - and how did you do it?
And please, don't spare the feelings, or think that anything is too obvious. I need to hear the obvious right now! And I've learned - slowly - over the years - that while tough love in the wrong hands can be a vindictive weapon (and one that I have had to make amends for wielding myself), that we should equally avoid "idiot compassion"
I haven't been around for a while, I came by for a read and really enjoyed being immersed in some AA threads. It reminds me how much I used to benefit from coming to SR. And it got me thinking about my own recovery.
I've been sober for more than 9 years, and still active in AA but with a much smaller "a". I still do 12 step calls, still do service at a home group, at the moment as a GSR. I feel like I'm going through the motions though. I do one or two meetings a week - apart from that I have a very full life, family, study, businesses, maintenance of the damned house (!), hobbies.
I have some character defects that I feel like I've just given up on, but they affect me badly, particularly economically. I worked the steps a couple times with a couple different sponsors and benefitted each time. I have alot of friends in AA and outside of it, but I still seem to be able to be "dangerously anti-social" with some people and can struggle to have productive relationships, particularly in business. I have to say though that in so many areas of my life, and as a direct result of my recovery work, I feel and act and think so much better than I ever did before, and for that I'm grateful.
One of the things that I always liked about SR was that there seemed to be so many people who "had what I wanted" in terms of recovery. I find that quite hard to find in 3d AA experience here in the NW of the UK - but I guess if I'm not doing many different meetings I'm maybe not expanding my network of AAers who're really getting the benefit of recovery. Plus of course I'm not practicing as diligently as I could, so if I want to find good quality recovery in AA I could start with myself!
So I guess I'm dropping a thread in here - on my 16th wedding anniversary, a gold plated, bona fide miracle if ever there was one
- to ask - how can I refresh my recovery practice? Have people experienced a need to "kick again" - and how did you do it? And please, don't spare the feelings, or think that anything is too obvious. I need to hear the obvious right now! And I've learned - slowly - over the years - that while tough love in the wrong hands can be a vindictive weapon (and one that I have had to make amends for wielding myself), that we should equally avoid "idiot compassion"
My extraordinary abilities of fantasy, prejudice, denial and blindness can create a virtual reality that I cannot attain (because it isn't REAL).
I have 42 yrs married coming up shortly and Pamela Anderson sometimes still looks like the one I should have waited for .... if you know what I mean.
As my father used to say "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" and often my bush is seemingly alive with tweeting birds ....
I get "bored" and "scared" sometimes in AA and I try to take those times to RENEW my dedication to the program at a deeper level. Different meetings, groups and members. Especially help the newcomers.
All the best.
Bob R
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 557
Some would say that if you're really working your 10,11 and 12 you don't need to revisit step 4. Personally I disagree. As a human (although some would disagree with that too) I do nothing perfectly.
When I did my 1st step 4, I did it as good as I could at the time. I was a drunk with about 3 months in, how well do you think I did?
As I live and grow in this program I come to different times when I believe I NEED to re-do my step 4 for the exact same reasons I did the 1st. I need to get a very clear picture of what needs to be gotten rid of, and what needs work. What's good about me, is important, but not as important as it was when I came in, because when I did my 1st step 4, it was hard to believe there was anything good about me. Now I know there is.
Just my opinion
When I did my 1st step 4, I did it as good as I could at the time. I was a drunk with about 3 months in, how well do you think I did?
As I live and grow in this program I come to different times when I believe I NEED to re-do my step 4 for the exact same reasons I did the 1st. I need to get a very clear picture of what needs to be gotten rid of, and what needs work. What's good about me, is important, but not as important as it was when I came in, because when I did my 1st step 4, it was hard to believe there was anything good about me. Now I know there is.
Just my opinion
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