Step 2
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Step 2
I am learning the 12 steps and have only made it through step one. I am obviously here because I have a problem with alcohol and have been powerless over this. I am having a hard time with Step 2 and the whole God thing. It isn't that I don't believe there are things more powerful than me (for example, the Earth, mother nature, technology, etc -the list can go on and on). The problem is I really don't believe in a personal God or Western religions that promote this belief (i.e., Judaism, Christianity, Islam). I do see the value in these beliefs as well as the value in Eastern beliefs which focus more on self discipline and introspection. So here's the problem. How can a higher power restore my sanity if I do not believe a higher power is even aware of my existence as a human being, or even gives a rat's ass what happens in my life? I have pondered the concept of God for many years and have come to the conclusion that if , indeed, God does exist, it is not something as human beings that we are capable of even understanding. It is impossible for me, with a straight face, to pray to what I see as an imaginary friend in order to control my impulses and addictions. I do agree that I cannot do this alone though. I do not intend on offending the beliefs of anyone here. Its just something I struggle with. It may be my arrogance or just more denial. I mean, as a young man, my higher power was the Grateful Dead. Years after the acid wore off i realized how silly this all was. I do hear good things about Transcendental Meditation. Anybody have experience with this?. Again, not meant to offend. Anybody here feel like I do now and then suddenly see the light?
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Good questions Hope4... IDK, but I kinda like the idea of the Grateful Dead as a higher power 
... My experience is a little different than yours, but maybe something I say will resonate, or not.
I don't think God does give a rat's ass about what happens in my life either, yet I believe that His love for me is infinite. What happens in my life is part of His plan, but I don't get to know what that is until it happens... Faith in Him and trust that He will give me what I need... And it's not a new car, the next great job or even whether I see the sunrise tomorrow.
Trust that He will give me what I need, yet I know not what that is. That trust thing was and can still be, hard, yah know? Prayer and meditation, letting go... Whatever I think I want or need may, in fact, not be what I think it is. I don't get a say. I don't want a say, my imagination is puny and insignificant when compared to the infinite. That is just a part of the "light" I see.
He is beyond our understanding, I agree with you.
Mark
... My experience is a little different than yours, but maybe something I say will resonate, or not. I don't think God does give a rat's ass about what happens in my life either, yet I believe that His love for me is infinite. What happens in my life is part of His plan, but I don't get to know what that is until it happens... Faith in Him and trust that He will give me what I need... And it's not a new car, the next great job or even whether I see the sunrise tomorrow.
Trust that He will give me what I need, yet I know not what that is. That trust thing was and can still be, hard, yah know? Prayer and meditation, letting go... Whatever I think I want or need may, in fact, not be what I think it is. I don't get a say. I don't want a say, my imagination is puny and insignificant when compared to the infinite. That is just a part of the "light" I see.
He is beyond our understanding, I agree with you.
Mark
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The grateful dead is a perfect example. Together they were always better than the sum of their parts...and something happened at shows when people came together, the music, dancing and the 'band kept playing on'. I always came away from shows feeling lifted somehow - and there were shows I went to completely sober and the feeling I came away with was not something I could produce on my own.
So - Step 2. Read the book very carefully on this subject and what Step 2 really means and what purpose it serves. Just to quote a couple of passages:
"Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." - pp 44
"We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God." - pp 46
"So we used our own conception, however limited it was." - pp 47
I think it's best to keep step 2 very simple. It isn't about what someone does "NOT" believe as much as it's what one is willing to believe. My conception continues to grow and change very much from what it was the first time at step 2 and I certainly did not have an idea that it was a personal power that took interest in me, let alone be capable of removing this monkey from my back.
My suggestion is to read Chapter 4 very carefully and consider - are you so different than what is being described in that chapter? I will tell you this ~ the line about something that was once a flimsy reed proving to be what these AA folk claimed..turned out to be more than I ever hoped for...and it HAD to be real, practical.
It's all in the experience, not in the intellectual pondering.
bb references taken from Alcoholics Anonymous 1st edition
So - Step 2. Read the book very carefully on this subject and what Step 2 really means and what purpose it serves. Just to quote a couple of passages:
"Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." - pp 44
"We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God." - pp 46
"So we used our own conception, however limited it was." - pp 47
I think it's best to keep step 2 very simple. It isn't about what someone does "NOT" believe as much as it's what one is willing to believe. My conception continues to grow and change very much from what it was the first time at step 2 and I certainly did not have an idea that it was a personal power that took interest in me, let alone be capable of removing this monkey from my back.
My suggestion is to read Chapter 4 very carefully and consider - are you so different than what is being described in that chapter? I will tell you this ~ the line about something that was once a flimsy reed proving to be what these AA folk claimed..turned out to be more than I ever hoped for...and it HAD to be real, practical.
It's all in the experience, not in the intellectual pondering.
bb references taken from Alcoholics Anonymous 1st edition
Persevere, Never give up!
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Originally Posted by Mark75 
Good questions Hope4...
Trust that He will give me what I need, yet I know not what that is. That trust thing was and can still be, hard, yah know? Prayer and meditation, letting go... Whatever I think I want or need may, in fact, not be what I think it is. I don't get a say. I don't want a say, my imagination is puny and insignificant when compared to the infinite. That is just a part of the "light" I see.He is beyond our understanding, I agree with you.
Trust that He will give me what I need, yet I know not what that is. That trust thing was and can still be, hard, yah know? Prayer and meditation, letting go... Whatever I think I want or need may, in fact, not be what I think it is. I don't get a say. I don't want a say, my imagination is puny and insignificant when compared to the infinite. That is just a part of the "light" I see.He is beyond our understanding, I agree with you.
But GOD is GOD
GOD is holy, which means HE is completely ''other'' above and beyond human examination
GOD is steadfast - we are untrustworthy
GOD renews - we destroy
GOD is eternal - we are mortal
GOD accepts us - we fal to accept ourselves
GOD forgives - we harbour grudges
GOD doles out - we hoard
GOD is holy - we are sinful
GOD loves - we are self-centered
GOD gives - we ae grasping
GOD communicates - we shut down communication
''Human beings never understand their own insignificance better than when they observe the presence and majesty of GOD! ''
John Calvin
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Hope, you don't need to believe in a God, but "our Maker, as we understood Him" (BB First Edition). That can be the group. In my regular meeting it ends with the we version of the Serenity Prayer because "alone I can't, but together WE can". I always love that.
Please feel free to post over at the Secular 12-Steps, it sounds like you might just fit right in!
Please feel free to post over at the Secular 12-Steps, it sounds like you might just fit right in!
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 812
Step 2 Question:
Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power Greater than myself? pg 47
I was willing to believe. The remainder of the steps helped me to develop that willingness, let go of my prejudices, and eventually I tapped into a power greater than myself, but first I had to practice ALL 12 steps.
All you need is willingness to make a start. The steps take care of the rest.
My experience, anyway.
Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power Greater than myself? pg 47
I was willing to believe. The remainder of the steps helped me to develop that willingness, let go of my prejudices, and eventually I tapped into a power greater than myself, but first I had to practice ALL 12 steps.
All you need is willingness to make a start. The steps take care of the rest.
My experience, anyway.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
sugErspun thank you thank you!
That right there is a huge huge thing that has helped me. I use to spend alot of time telling people what my HP wasn't....I still get into it and it doesn't help me or them....I try to focus on what my HP is, and when i am struggling...generally its cause i'm trying to define my HP by negatives..not this not that...instead of positives...is is is...
It isn't about what someone does "NOT" believe as much as it's what one is willing to believe.
That right there is a huge huge thing that has helped me. I use to spend alot of time telling people what my HP wasn't....I still get into it and it doesn't help me or them....I try to focus on what my HP is, and when i am struggling...generally its cause i'm trying to define my HP by negatives..not this not that...instead of positives...is is is...
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
Choose your own concept ?.
Step 2 has a different meaning to me today than it did when i worked through the text with my sponsor.
Step 2 is a begining..........notice the word "came".........that says to me that it may take a while....it doesnt say "do" and it doesnt say "now"..
It also says "believe".........."believe" is a very different word from "faith"...
and it doesnt say god......just something with more power than you.
i know lots that use the fellowship as a begining.......
Are you willing and open minded?.........can you believe whats working for others can work for you?..
Hey your doing ok...........and its good to question....
when i came to AA i thought the only god was me........
Step 2 has a different meaning to me today than it did when i worked through the text with my sponsor.
Step 2 is a begining..........notice the word "came".........that says to me that it may take a while....it doesnt say "do" and it doesnt say "now"..
It also says "believe".........."believe" is a very different word from "faith"...
and it doesnt say god......just something with more power than you.
i know lots that use the fellowship as a begining.......
Are you willing and open minded?.........can you believe whats working for others can work for you?..
Hey your doing ok...........and its good to question....
when i came to AA i thought the only god was me........
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Hope4Recovery
So here's the problem. How can a higher power restore my sanity if I do not believe a higher power is even aware of my existence as a human being, or even gives a rat's ass what happens in my life? I have pondered the concept of God for many years and have come to the conclusion that if , indeed, God does exist, it is not something as human beings that we are capable of even understanding.
(Bill Wilson)
Retired Pro Drunk
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
Originally Posted by Hope4Recovery
Anybody here feel like I do now and then suddenly see the light?
I had to come up with my own and it was tough. I sort of started where you are at now - what does it take to be greater than me? My answer was, "not much."
My HP isn't necessarily the greatest power in the universe. Mine needs only to be capable of some things that I'm not capable of myself. And that's all it need be for me.
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Location: Zion, Illinois
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Originally Posted by Hope4Recovery
I am having a hard time with Step 2 and the whole God thing.
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I've found the " Act as if " philosophy to be very helpful .
You don't have to love your neighbor, but act as if you did. Soon you will love your neighbor.
If you act as if you had a higher power when going through the 12 Steps, soon , you will have a higher power.
When I figured out I didn't have to write Summa Theoligica II in order to believe in some kind of HP, it became much easier.
You don't have to love your neighbor, but act as if you did. Soon you will love your neighbor.
If you act as if you had a higher power when going through the 12 Steps, soon , you will have a higher power.
When I figured out I didn't have to write Summa Theoligica II in order to believe in some kind of HP, it became much easier.
Adjusting my Sails
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,021
Originally Posted by Hope4Recovery
The problem is I really don't believe in a personal God or Western religions that promote this belief (i.e., Judaism, Christianity, Islam). I do see the value in these beliefs as well as the value in Eastern beliefs which focus more on self discipline and introspection. So here's the problem. How can a higher power restore my sanity if I do not believe a higher power is even aware of my existence as a human being, or even gives a rat's ass what happens in my life? I have pondered the concept of God for many years and have come to the conclusion that if , indeed, God does exist, it is not something as human beings that we are capable of even understanding. It is impossible for me, with a straight face, to pray to what I see as an imaginary friend in order to control my impulses and addictions.
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God.
The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way.
My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"
My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"
To my knowledge AA doesn't demand we believe in anyone's idea of God including the one or ones you mention. So what is the higher power mentioned in step two? Seek out truth and don't worry about what anyone else believes.
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Originally Posted by Music
I've read step two many times, and I've never seen the word "God". If memory serves, it says "higher power." Look in the mirror, think about your life and how things are going, and if you can't imagine something out there more powerful than what you're looking at, maybe the 12 steps aren't for you. The steps are numbered for a reason. Work them in order and quit reading things into them that isn't there.
I'm trying to find what will work for me. Having "faith" in things that i do not truly believe isn't something I can force. Maybe you are right that AA isn't for me, but then again, maybe you are wrong. I was under the assumption that the only qualification for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I do have this desire, but if people attending AA are going to reject my struggle to work through these steps, I'd just as soon explore other options. The all or nothing approach is good way to scare people off in my opinion. There are plenty of people out there that believe in God who continue drinking and drugging without a desire to stop. I do have this desire and acknowledge that I have been powerless over my drinking for quite some time. So, I'm doing the best I can for now.
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Plus, My limited understanding of the 12 steps comes from this:
The Twelve Steps
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
I do believe "God" is mentioned there a few times.
The Twelve Steps
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
I do believe "God" is mentioned there a few times.
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Anyway, enough debating. I'm here to seek support and knowledge from others in recovery. I only have two weeks under my belt. I have a long way to go and I imagine my ego will slowly surrender to do what it takes to get where some of you are at. I'm feeling good about today. Chances of drinking today are slim to none. The forum has been extremely helpful so far. We all have to find our own path and that is what I am trying to do.
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