Sponsoring a drug addict.
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This thread has been very eye opening to me as I have abuse issues with alcohol and my son has abused pills...can anybody explain Gods position on this issue? aa's real purpose is to be of maximum service to God...is that not na's? Does God care what room one sits in...aa or na? I have introduced my son to aa simply for the fellowship and quite frankly he has been advised to stay away from na because of the availability of drugs after meetings.
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Mark...my son is so much like me yet so different does not believe in God...he has even gone so far as to call me a Bible thumper...The generation which he grew up in is much more pragmatic...he bases his beliefs on what he has witnessed in his short 20 years of life.
He is doing better...he has stumbled once with a legit script for a hip muscle tear and knows that he will need to remain vigilant regardless of doctors who will write scripts for hangnails.
I still am curious as to Gods position on this issue.
He is doing better...he has stumbled once with a legit script for a hip muscle tear and knows that he will need to remain vigilant regardless of doctors who will write scripts for hangnails.
I still am curious as to Gods position on this issue.
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Originally Posted by bugsworth 
Does God care what room one sits in...aa or na?
Or, he can attend the fellowship.
Mark
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Thanks Mark...if God doesn't care then why all the fuss?
Directions to God are not found in the bb...that is just a man made construct...God dwells within. No directions necessary. My son is a gift from God...I know this and one day he will teach his children the same.
Directions to God are not found in the bb...that is just a man made construct...God dwells within. No directions necessary. My son is a gift from God...I know this and one day he will teach his children the same.
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Bugs, the fuss is about identification. That is what singleness of purpose is all about. In AA it is one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic.
To quote the Big Book:
"But the ex-problem who has found this solution, who is properly armed with the facts about himself (As an alcoholic, I have to be able to speak from experience. Experience the phenomenon of craving and of the inability to stay away from alcohol no matter
great the necessity, wish, or desire and all the humiliation that goes with that) can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours. Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished."
Others had tried to reach me, non-alcoholics for the most part. But when it came from a man who obviously had lived the hell of active alcoholism, it sunk from my head to my heart. Before that I had that question that a lot of us. both alcoholic and addict have had-"Just what the hell is wrong with me?" Some of us will die if we don't get that question answered.
Before I met John, everybody else had told me what was wrong with me and I wouldn't listen. In treatment they told me I was an addict because I had used drugs. They told me I was bi-polar. They told me I had a wounded inner child and that it was mommy & daddy's fault I was alcoholic. John didn't tell me what was wrong with me. He told me what was wrong with him and I identified at depth, much the same as what Dr. Bob experienced the first time he met with Bill Wilson.
A lot of the times our meetings should be Twelfth-Step calls. That's why we have them.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
To quote the Big Book:
"But the ex-problem who has found this solution, who is properly armed with the facts about himself (As an alcoholic, I have to be able to speak from experience. Experience the phenomenon of craving and of the inability to stay away from alcohol no matter
great the necessity, wish, or desire and all the humiliation that goes with that) can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours. Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished."
Others had tried to reach me, non-alcoholics for the most part. But when it came from a man who obviously had lived the hell of active alcoholism, it sunk from my head to my heart. Before that I had that question that a lot of us. both alcoholic and addict have had-"Just what the hell is wrong with me?" Some of us will die if we don't get that question answered.
Before I met John, everybody else had told me what was wrong with me and I wouldn't listen. In treatment they told me I was an addict because I had used drugs. They told me I was bi-polar. They told me I had a wounded inner child and that it was mommy & daddy's fault I was alcoholic. John didn't tell me what was wrong with me. He told me what was wrong with him and I identified at depth, much the same as what Dr. Bob experienced the first time he met with Bill Wilson.
A lot of the times our meetings should be Twelfth-Step calls. That's why we have them.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
Last edited by jimhere; 10-02-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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Yes.... my children are all a gift from God.
I meant that God is there for him at AA in terms of recovery from alcoholism and he can find him through the big book, if he wants to look there. But, God is everywhere, is everything, and within all of us... He doesn't need AA to find him.
I was making the distinction between the program of AA and the fellowship.
The fuss? Hmm... I don't think I can add anything to the discussion that hasn't already been mentioned.
Mark
I meant that God is there for him at AA in terms of recovery from alcoholism and he can find him through the big book, if he wants to look there. But, God is everywhere, is everything, and within all of us... He doesn't need AA to find him.
I was making the distinction between the program of AA and the fellowship.
The fuss? Hmm... I don't think I can add anything to the discussion that hasn't already been mentioned.
Mark
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he told you about the spiritual malady he suffered with, he told you how he couldnt stop, he told you he couldnt stay stopped without a program, he told you of his terrible concequences,
sounds like an addict to me !!
patience and tollerance jim,
god bless all those who have closed minds.
sounds like an addict to me !!
patience and tollerance jim,
god bless all those who have closed minds.
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"patience and tollerance jim,"
I think you mean permissiveness. Sure he can sit in an open meeting, but if he's not alcoholic he doesn't meet the membership requirement, so why do him a disservice by lying to him?
We kill addicts in AA with this "patience & tolerance" baloney. And we don't do the alcoholic any good either when we deviate from our primary purpose. The loving thing to do is tell people the truth. Qualify them. If they aren't alcoholic, take them through the steps if need be. Better yet, help them find someone who has their problem to take them through the steps.
Jim
I think you mean permissiveness. Sure he can sit in an open meeting, but if he's not alcoholic he doesn't meet the membership requirement, so why do him a disservice by lying to him?
We kill addicts in AA with this "patience & tolerance" baloney. And we don't do the alcoholic any good either when we deviate from our primary purpose. The loving thing to do is tell people the truth. Qualify them. If they aren't alcoholic, take them through the steps if need be. Better yet, help them find someone who has their problem to take them through the steps.
Jim
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Originally Posted by bugsworth
Thanks Mark...if God doesn't care then why all the fuss?
Directions to God are not found in the bb...that is just a man made construct...God dwells within. No directions necessary. My son is a gift from God...I know this and one day he will teach his children the same.
Directions to God are not found in the bb...that is just a man made construct...God dwells within. No directions necessary. My son is a gift from God...I know this and one day he will teach his children the same.
My experience is that exact directions to find God are contained in the Big Book, my experience agrees with your statement that God is within, the steps removed all that was blocking me.
Last time I checked your belief was that God had nothing to do with your recovery, so what does your question have to do with anything, other than stirring the pot, I know you will come back with a lofty explanation, I still call ********.
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Jim...I understand the identification...I have spoken at length with my son about it. While our DOC are different we experience the same thing. We recently spoke about the very first drink/pill after a time away from them. The second it slides down out throats we are planning the next one...drink/pill. The need is identical...just the high is different. The plotting and planning...the sneaking and the lying...it is all the same.
We are both armed with the facts...we are both addicts...only the substance is different.
Why an alcoholic can't help an addict is ridiculous. If God is the answer then is there one for alcoholics and one for pill poppers?
Mark..My son will have to find his own path...I can only share with him my experience.. he knows that I know that there is no correlation between religious beliefs and sobriety. I know that this has made him stronger...he has started to show greater accountability for his actions. We can stand on common ground together in every aspect. I can only hope he wants what is free for him to have.
We are both armed with the facts...we are both addicts...only the substance is different.
Why an alcoholic can't help an addict is ridiculous. If God is the answer then is there one for alcoholics and one for pill poppers?
Mark..My son will have to find his own path...I can only share with him my experience.. he knows that I know that there is no correlation between religious beliefs and sobriety. I know that this has made him stronger...he has started to show greater accountability for his actions. We can stand on common ground together in every aspect. I can only hope he wants what is free for him to have.
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Rob..with all due respect why does it bother you so to have to expand on statements that are made? My explanations have never been "lofty"..if anything they are short and to the point.
You state the exact directions to find God are found in a book published 70+ years ago?
Seriously? I pray you can't be that close minded.
You state the exact directions to find God are found in a book published 70+ years ago?
Seriously? I pray you can't be that close minded.
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Bugs,
Being a parent myself I do understand your concern. You have an emotional tie.
Leaving aside the blood ties, this is often an emotionally charged issue, fraught with much misunderstanding. When you have emotionalism without principle, you have a mess and nobody gets helped.
I never said an alcoholic couldn't help an addict. I know it works better when an addict helps an addict. The answer, God if you will, is the same. The path to God, or the 12 Steps, will work for an alcoholic or an addict. The fellowships necessarily won't. I also believe as Rob does that precise directions to God are found in that book. I also don't believe they are the only exact directions to God. The 12 Steps are just one path of many.
I don't believe that Alcoholics Anonymous will help your son a bit if we lie to him. In fact, we could kill him. That being said, I sincerely do hope that he finds an answer.
Jim
Being a parent myself I do understand your concern. You have an emotional tie.
Leaving aside the blood ties, this is often an emotionally charged issue, fraught with much misunderstanding. When you have emotionalism without principle, you have a mess and nobody gets helped.
I never said an alcoholic couldn't help an addict. I know it works better when an addict helps an addict. The answer, God if you will, is the same. The path to God, or the 12 Steps, will work for an alcoholic or an addict. The fellowships necessarily won't. I also believe as Rob does that precise directions to God are found in that book. I also don't believe they are the only exact directions to God. The 12 Steps are just one path of many.
I don't believe that Alcoholics Anonymous will help your son a bit if we lie to him. In fact, we could kill him. That being said, I sincerely do hope that he finds an answer.
Jim
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Originally Posted by bugsworth
he knows that I know that there is no correlation between religious beliefs and sobriety
I don't think there is a correlation between "religious beliefs" and sobriety. I believe that there is a spiritual connection between my serenity and my freedom from alcohol.
And what do any of us really know about anything except our own experience?
This is getting way off topic regarding Bob's OP (remember Bob?) so maybe we ought to leave this for (yet) another thread.
I am glad you have found a connection with your son and you are setting a good example for him. That's awesome.
Mark
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Once again bugs, it works better because of identification. Many people suffer many obsessions of all kinds. But not everyone experiences the phenomenon of craving for more alcohol when they drink alcohol. That is the defining factor of alcoholism. To quote Doctor Silkworth, it is what diffrientiates and sets the alcoholic apart as a distinct entity. I am starting to see that you have a hard time identifying with the alcoholic experience. Maybe that is why you don't understand. Maybe you can't understand.
Emotionalism is what you are experiencing right now. A natural thing, especially when one's child is involved. Multiply that by about 100 times in a setting where you have a bunch of people in an AA meeting with no real clue of what alcoholism is and of the principle involved, which is singleness of purpose. Everyone wants to help everybody but doesn't really know how because no one can identify with each other. In the chaos no one gets helped and the whole thing falls apart and some alcoholics die and some addicts die.
Again, the program of recovery can work for anyone if there is a foundation of truth. I am not theorizing, I know from experience.
Jim
Emotionalism is what you are experiencing right now. A natural thing, especially when one's child is involved. Multiply that by about 100 times in a setting where you have a bunch of people in an AA meeting with no real clue of what alcoholism is and of the principle involved, which is singleness of purpose. Everyone wants to help everybody but doesn't really know how because no one can identify with each other. In the chaos no one gets helped and the whole thing falls apart and some alcoholics die and some addicts die.
Again, the program of recovery can work for anyone if there is a foundation of truth. I am not theorizing, I know from experience.
Jim
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See Jim...after speaking with my son the obsession is the same...before the pill has even entered his blood stream he is already fixing to find the next one...me too...before the alcohol has had a chance to take its effects I am plotting the next drink.
Dr. Silkwood was one man...us addicts are millions...I have been here at SR long enough to read the symptoms. Addict or alcoholic the pathology is the same.
I take my responsibility for my son's issues where they lie squarely on my shoulders...I set a horrible example...I also acknowledge the legacy of my own father whom I knew mostly by my social workers repots and by his obit....he died in the woods at 52 frozen with a 12 pack by his side. The singleness of purpose can't be divided so that the principle is lost.
Mark..my "spin" was an honest and direct question.
Dr. Silkwood was one man...us addicts are millions...I have been here at SR long enough to read the symptoms. Addict or alcoholic the pathology is the same.
I take my responsibility for my son's issues where they lie squarely on my shoulders...I set a horrible example...I also acknowledge the legacy of my own father whom I knew mostly by my social workers repots and by his obit....he died in the woods at 52 frozen with a 12 pack by his side. The singleness of purpose can't be divided so that the principle is lost.
Mark..my "spin" was an honest and direct question.
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