digderidoo

This is something i have thought alot about.

I have met someone and when initially mentioning that i was dating to my sponsor, he said, 'we don't do relationships well you know'. I thought, 'what??'

The program is a key to normal living surely??

It got me thinking that those in AA that i respect are mainly single and have had problems in relationships even in sobriety.

Because of my sponsors own issues with an ex, i don't feel comfortable talking about this woman i have met with him.

Does anyone else feel the same??

Paul

Mark75

Some people have serious interpersonal skills deficits... Some people. Some of them happen to be alcoholics. Some people have good interpersonal skills, some of them are alcoholics.

If an alcoholic is in recovery, I would just consider any advice based on that individuals ability to give it.... That somehow alcoholism by itself strikes anybody incompetent, in anything, simply because they drank and are now in AA is a conclusion I'll never support. In fact, it frustrates me to no end when I hear recovered alcoholics sell themselves short. It seems to me that a recovered alcoholic may, by virtue of the 12 steps, be better able to provide insight into relationships.

If we disqualify ourselves for anything just because we are recovered alcoholics, what, really is the point?

Mark

tommyk

'we don't do relationships well you know'

I'm curious to know if there is anyone, or group, who does do relationships well?

I see problems with all people across the board.

Music

The question isn't about asking an alcoholic advice about relationships, the question is "should any alcoholic GIVE advice about relationships?' The answer to that IMO is, alcoholics in general, have no business GIVING ADVICE about anything. Sharing experience, strength and hope is one thing. Giving advice is something else again. When I came to AA, I'd been married for 15 years and my relationships with my wife, kids, friends and co-workers were in the toilet. My sponsor simply said, "here are the steps that will enable you to stay sober. First Things First."

Mark75

When I read that, it makes me sad.

I work in a field, and have worked in a field for 25 years, where I earn my living giving advice... it is my "business".

Should I quit?

That said... I know what you are saying, and I agree that sharing experience, strength and hope is best... In a way though, while not advice, as in... "you should do this...." it is offering help, as in this.... "when this happened to me, this is how I handled it..."

Help vs. Advice.... Two different things?

Mark

RMM897

Cubile75, I like, and agree, with what you had to say about not being incompetent in everything.

I, too, work in a field that requires quite a bit of information and referral work. My program of recovery works because of education, training (through step work and other methods) and experience that will come by working it, no? Just like my career is successful because of education, training and experience in working it.

As far as giving relationship advice, I have had a long standing rule of avoiding that minefield unless it was to suggest counseling or domestic abuse victim support. Other than that, I relegate myself to "sounding board" status. Constructive listening, really listening, can be better help than anything a lot of times.

I can't really add anything about asking for advice on dating in recovery. Been married the whole time previously, and still married now.

nandm

What I know is that when I drank my picker was broken. I tending to be attracted to people who were bad for me. Was that cured because I got sober?? No, but sobriety and the program of AA helped me develop a deeper sense of self and self respect which in turn changed the quality of people I found myself attracted to. Today I am in a relationship I would not trade for the world. No abuse, yelling, anger, etc... just mutual love, trust, and respect. Would I give someone relationship advice? I don't think I would but one thing I can do is share my ESH then leave the decisions to them and the advice to the professionals. That is what is right for me, I can't speak for anyone else.

sailorjohn

Gotta say, read your other post about the meet, her last relationship was with an alcoholic?

Heard it many times in the F&F section, you might find it helpful to do a little 'browsing' there, or even throw out your relationship question.

We attract people that are as healthy-or sick-as we are.

Me, my picker doesn't work, or more correctly, I'm still pretty unhealthy on that end.

Best to concentrate on myself for a while-quite a while, they've said it many times, and I believe it, when I'm healthier I will attract healthy people, and not only for intimate relationship, but all relationships across the board

Ago

Just amused about a post giving opinion and advice saying alcoholics should never give opinions and advice

Not saying I don't agree, giving advice and opinions is something many of us should stay from, which is why we share our EXPERIENCE, strength and Hope

you can just see like some professor guy, waving his finger in my face "Why <"In my opinion" > and then proceeds to give me his opinion and advice about giving opinion and advice

There is something undoubtedly humorous about that

Exactly

The BB says something like, "We don't want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct, we all have sex problems, we wouldn't be human if we didn't" and then proceeds to give some very sound practical advice.

AA cracks me up because I have NEVER seen a group so desperately "arbit" the sexual lives of others, sponsors chasing sponsees around yelling no sex no sex and firing the sponsee if they go get their ashes hauled. In every case that sponsor has a pretty miserable sex life themself, and not only that if you stay around long enough you look at these people with 20+ years running around "arbiting" the sex lives of others and are like...wait....weren't you like the worst of the lot when you were new?

My favorite shirt said "straight pepper diet" when I was new

Your sponsor is right, generally speaking alcoholics don't "do" relationships well, I spent years looking for a "relationship sponsor" in AA, someone who had what I wanted because I wanted to learn how do relationships you know?

I never really found a healthy relationship to "model" my behavior for those early years, they were still either still in the Honeymoon Stage, thus completely fooking delusional, or there was some always some passive aggressive battle for control happening, toss in the fact we pick screaming codependents, or they pick us, with their own set of control issues, family of origin issues etc and are codie ourselves, plus WE frequently have AcoA issues, Family of Origin Issues, we don't so much have relationships as take hostages and participate in Train Wrecks where we fight over the steering wheel as we drive off the cliff.

So I went to Couples Counseling, Therapy, Read all the Books, I remember sharing about my quest for a relationship sponsor and giving up after three years and going to therapy, and after the meeting I had a crowd of men to ask me what I had learned as they had had the same experience in AA.

Reminds me of a story where a man decides to find the perfect woman, he searches and searches and finally finds a wonderful woman, but it doesn't work out, his friends ask why and he says, "Well our connection was wonderful and deep, emotionally we fit like a glove, spiritually we grew as one, but the physical was missing"

So he continues his search and finds another, after it fails his friends ask what happened, "Well we had a wonderful time, sexually we were very compatible, emotionally we grew as one, but I was unable to connect with her on a spiritual level, on which I base my life, so while it was close, and she was wonderful, I saw it wouldn't work and truly fulfill me."

So he tells his friends "I found her a few years later in Bombay, I found the perfect woman!!! Her physical beauty was unmatched, her spiritual life was rich and deep, we meshed emotionally as one, She was IT....The Perfect Woman!!!!!!"




long pause......






Finally his friends asked, SO??!!?? What happened???!?!?!? Did you marry her?


Huh? Oh, No, unfortunately it didn't work out. Turned out she was searching for the perfect Man







I have gotten some GREAT advice (experience strength and hope) about relationships from people with LONG TERM sobriety, not so much how to do them, but what was MY part, which in CRUCIAL to having relationships, there is specific instruction about this starting on page 69, council with others is often desirable, but we let God be the final Judge, and in short, we treat this just like we do any other problem.

I have no problem asking my sober friends who's opinion I respect questions about ME and MY BEHAVIOR in a relationship. Resentments and Relationships take us OUT, so I got no problem having my delusional thinking pointed out to me so I can do a clear step ten around something so I don't have to carry around the resentment. I also have no problem with going to a professional such as a therapist and couples counselor and have done so in the past to my great benefit.

One thing I do keep in mind is I only ask people who have what I want, for example I don't ask single bitter angry people how to do relationships because I know how to do that, and I don't ask people in sick/codependent relationships what they think either, as I know how to do sick/codependent too.

So in short, there are some clear cut instructions in the Book, such as council with others is often desirable but we let God be the final Judge, and we stay out of other people's sex lives.

tommyk

Some person, or people, at an AA meeting said something that makes you 'pissed at AA'...?

Be pissed at some people, but don't condemn the whole AA program.

sailorjohn

Well, can't say I've read that anywhere in the BB, have heard 'recovery therapists' say things like no major unnecessary changes in the first six months.

But I also read something here, and it made a lot of sense to me at the time, still does:

"I think you have answered your own question in the above line. If he wants to become aware and change his behavior, then he'll do it.....If he doesn't, he won't. And even if he decides he does, you are probably the last person in the world to be helpful to him in that regard -- not because you might not have useful info, but because of your history with him. When it comes to his recovery -- or lack thereof -- you truly are not the best person to be helping him, and your trying to do so only gives him a good excuse to develop more resentment toward you and to not be looking for help from the people who are best suited to give it to him."

freya

I am responsible for my own recovery, no one elses.

Ago

PS

This is just me but I do remember to remain transparent and accountable to other alcoholics, I may not seek advice from my sponsor about relationships but I do tell him what's going on, the more in-depth stuff ie If I want "advice" I do find a sober alcoholic that "has what I want" like serenity and a successful relationship, and talk to them, one thing I don't have is "secrets"

Secrets can get me in trouble

On the other hand, if your sponsor realizes he doesn't "do" relationships well, and does have some bad experiences, what he can tell you is what NOT to do and if he sticks to sharing experience and not advice he may have some valuable information to share so you don't have to re-invent the wheel (like the rest of us insist on doing )

I find I have learned as much from sponsors and sponsees about what NOT to do as I have learned about WHAT to do, what NOT to do is as valuable information if not more valuable then WHAT to do for me.

Kind of like the George Castanza approach to sobriety and life, if I think it's a good idea, it's probably not, and if it's uncomfortable and I think it's a bad idea I may need to consider it.

PPS I do think it's funny watching "no major changes in your first year" evolve to "no new relationships your first year" to "you should break up your existing relationship your first year"

Nothing worse then a buncha new people running around spouting unintegrated nonsense they misheard at meetings then using that to give advice to other sick people, that's what Jim and others are describing when they talk about "the problem" being "preached" at meetings rather then the solution.

Reminds me of my old post:
and relationships aren't simple, but as I wrote before relationships are covered in masterful detail in the BB but as I watch these people running around to extremes, spouting non integrated rehab nonsense, arbiting every one else's sex conduct while having a complete and total inability to arbit their own as they crash and burn one relationship after another but blare nonsense that doesn't match their experience in the slightest at group level, I can only shake my head in wonder, follow the instructions exactly out of the book, stick with sharing only my experience strength and hope and quite frankly be kind of sad as I wonder what the maroons have done to my beloved AA sometimes.

CarolD

Hmm....
Look in the 12 & 12 ....page 119.

I do ask my sponsees to finish their formal Steps
before launching into a new love affair.
Those who do....seem to enjoy the relationship more.

lizw

I've been sober a little while now and it has been my experiece that I have a 'dependent personality'. Hence why I become dependent on alcohol and drugs and (for me) when I got sober I switched this dependence to boyfriends. This was not a deliberate or calculated act as I did everything in AA that is suggested i.e. steps, sponsor, service. I has also started attending AA when I was 19 and most people (alcoholic or not) at that age are "dating".

But it has also been my expereince, and from what I have seen in others in the fellowship, unlike 'most people' we tend to be a tad obsessive. An old timer here says, "Alcoholics don't have relationships, they take hostages."

I have found the best advice regarding relationships in Al Anon and SLAA and the weird thing about that is that the advice never involves the other person but is about my own emotional/spiritual growth.

So would I take advice from an AA member regarding relationships? It would depend what their own love life was like. If their love life was a total wreck (and they'd been sober for a few years) asking them for advice IMO would be like asking a drunk person how to stay sober then following their advice.

On a brighter note, another guy round rubbishes the idea that you have to be x number of years/months sober to get into a relationship. He reckons relationships don't cause alcoholics to drink but they just cause one a lot of emotional pain. Alcoholics drink because we're alcoholics.

But spiritual growth isn't a skip in the park tho isn't it? It is usually quite painful. And it has also been my experience that it is easier to be spiritual being single....

McGowdog

Good one!

Let me give you some advice about not taking advice... Oh boy!

Looking at the relationships of others in A.A. has been interesting. As someone said, this stuff causes more drunks to go back out and drink... but it's seldom talked about in the rooms. Resentment, fear, sex relations... it's gonna kill us and we don't want to talk about it! Crazy.

Take Mathew for instance. Mathew was sitting on the steps outside of York Street before a meeting one Sunday morning and he was sitting there bawling his head off.

His sponsor came up to him and said, "What's the matter Mathew?"

Mathew said, "Sex. Sex...and more sex! Just sex."

The sponsor said, "What do you mean?"

Mathew said, "I come home for lunch and there's sex. I have to fight my way back to work and there's more sex. I come home from work and sex. Then dinner and more sex. I try to go to bed and there's more sex. It goes on through the night and in the morning there's sex! I take a shower and there's sex. Then off to work I finally go!"

The sponsor said, "So what on earth is the problem Mathew?"








Mathew said,












...










"I can't remember where I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!"

keithj

Depends on my perception of the quality of the alcoholic's relationship.

The directions from the Big Book are clear about our role as recovered alcoholics in advising on another's relationships. 'Is it selfish or not?' God is the final arbiter. I can say that without exception, when I've followed that rule in relationships, even when I really don't want to, the outcome has been all right. Better than I could have imagined in many cases.

That said, I try to live by spiritual principles in all areas of my life. It's very easy to utilize the principles when it comes to alcohol. Get me worried about money, the girl, my son, my future, and it's a whole lot harder to walk to walk. Easy to be a holy man on a mountain top.

The only advice I could give, or probably need to hear, is that a relationship governed by spiritual principles is bound to be gratifying and fulfilling. I didn't know what love was until I recovered. I thought I knew, but it took a fundamental change in my heart before I could feel that.

Love is an action. It's a verb. It's not some mysterious force that comes over me with the right person in the room. It's the actions I take with that person.

So the only real question I have to ask is one I can ask myself and my God. 'Can I love?' Can I do it without conditions and performance expectations? Can I do for another with little concern for myself?

Funny thing is, I do this and I get all the benefit. I (insert action verb) love and get the reward of loving another. It's beautiful, really.

How is somebody going to give me advice on how to do that? Alcoholic or not, how can someone show me that? All they can do is point me in the direction of the spiritual principles so that I may have my own experience with that action. Just like every other bit of advice on every other subject.

I do however, when I get some great idea about relationships, run it by somebody I trust who has a quality relationship.

freya

Typically the people to whom I go when I need to talk something important and serious "through" with someone are the people with whom, over time, I have developed a relationship in which I have learned to trust their wisdom, their honesty, their self-awareness (including the ability to process, draw conclusions and learn lessons from their experience), and their empathy -- the empathy is important because it's very helpful to me when people can "intuitively" know the right questions to ask to help me along and to be able to reflect back to me what they're seeing/hearing from me that I might not be seeing/hearing myself.) They are also the people whom I know are highly committed to walking their own path to personal growth and healing -- regardless of what path that is And, since I've been in program, I'd also have to say that they're people whose spirituality and connection to HP is strong.

If all of those attributes are present in a recovering alcoholic -- and I most certainly know quite a few for whom I believe they are -- then, yeah, I'd be just as likely to go to that person as to anyone else.

You know, I guess when it comes to getting through a struggle/dealing with a serious problem or issue, of whatever kind, I want to talk to someone who has successfully gotten though struggles of their own -- I'm not real hung-up on their struggle being exactly the same as mine (Actually, I'm not hung-up on that at all -- H*ll, my PhD in in English literature, so I know how to think in terms of metaphors and underlying patterns/themes!) It's more important to me that she/he has a method/approach/philosophy/design for living that allows her/him to get through whatever struggles come her/his way....and any recovering person whose recovery I admire and respect is going to have that.

...and, as a matter of fact, I just today had a 2-hour lunch conversation with an AA friend -- 13 years sober, awesome program and amazing connection to HP -- primarily about this very topic. It was really good and very helpful, sad because I know I've got some hard stuff that I have to do, but still really, really good.

freya

lizw

I've heard this from some AA speaker whose name I can not recall right now.

How do you know if you are dating an alcoholic?
They want to live together after the second date.

miss communicat

if we are painstaking about our stepwork, ".....we will intuitively know how to handle situations that used to baffle us...."

I've found this even applies to relationships.

I also agree with others who've pointed out that giving advice is not the best route. Usually, just listening and being present to a friend is enough for the situation to improve.

That being true, it might work best to not seek "advice". Seek instead. a friend who is a good listener. And, you know the old saying about friends: If you want a friend, be a friend.

jimhere

Like has been said, be picky about who you ask the advice from. Don't go around asking a bunch of people because asking for advice in A.A. is like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hydrant.
Jim