navysteve

I think its a big stretch comparing a sponsor to Joe and Charlie but I suppose I see your point, I still think the best way to learn about the program of AA is to pick up the Big Book and read it yourself. Use Joe and Charlie as an addition to the Book, after you have drawn your own conclusions and experienced it yourself but to each his own I guess.

Ago

I agree with this.

I liked how they broke down the book nearly mathematically, I never had a sponsor do that, I had worked the steps a few times by the time I heard Joe and Charley (live) and they absolutely helped me become a more effective sponsor as well as broadened my own program.

I did get a bit messed up on the "you're all doing it wrong" phase for awhile but that passed and seems to be a part of the terrible twos anyway.

Nothing worse then a young male sober alcoholic with two years that knows everything.

I got shown more doors then when I was drinking during that phase.

I mean you know it's bad when you call friends after a few years of sobriety and say "I drank" and they respond with "Thank God!!!" (The same people also said thank God when I got sober again btw)

Anyhow, I got over it and still remember those seminars fondly and still use some Joe and Charlie going over the steps to this day.

This last time I went through the steps, my sponsor was part of the "anti Joe and Charlie" back in the day, so we went through the steps, we talked about what he knew, his experience etc, and I shared what I knew, what I learned from Joe and Charlie, and we'd both talk about what we learned from our Grandsponsor who had gotten sober when the first 100 were around...he was hardcore.

Personally I think his experience was from being sober 50 years, not because he was "touched" by the magic of the first 100, but his insights into things like The Traditions and how H and I got started I've never heard elsewhere and much of it was based on personal experience.

I feel very honored to have had my ear grabbed and dragged out of the meeting so many times by this man and had to endure yet another one of his screaming @ss chews, it gives me warm fuzzies just thinking about it.

The thing is, that's the truth, most of what he imparted to me took me a good ten years to understand, and by then he was dead. To this day I don't know what he saw in me to take that time, I never heard of him or saw him do that to anyone else.

I'd like to think I was uniquely stupid enough to warrant his attention, but a few years listening to relapsers and terminal newcomers cured me of that particular conceit.

We got to be pretty good friends after I had a few years of sobriety, the funny thing is he was the most loving man I have ever met, took me some years to get to that part though.

Anyhow I like J and C but I find myself dozing during some of their stuff now (on tape)

jimhere

Hey Andrew,

I've been through the "terrible twos." I think we all do. I kind of watch for it to happen with the guys I work with. Sometimes it's way before two years.

Usually it starts with "I was at this meeting and so-and-so said this and I thought it was just ********...."

I just smile.

AW2486

I like how Joe & Charlie explain the history of how this all evolved. I didn't know any of that until I listened to them. I listened to a recording of Bill W and the history of the Big Book. He made it sound like it was its most important role was to make money for bigger and better things. Not so much what it offered.

The BB study I attend, we use 3 different sets. J & C that cover the history and their take, Roger and Dennis a couple of guys from MN that read every word and give their take, and I try to find a new set each year for the 3rd. Each set takes 4 months, so it doesn't get stale.

Andy

Ago

If you can get past the BS and into the meat our history is actually pretty fun, it's like world history but with alcoholics (add in it was before the traditions and woo hoo)

I mean Hospitals and Institutions started with a fist fight in the parking lot of San Quentin, guys from New York flew out and tried to stop some Marin guys from bringing a meeting into the Prison at the request of the warden and it turned into a brawl.

H and I is the second oldest AA service entity after GSR now.

The first female and was it alkie #5 I think were caught fornicating on DR Bob's examination table, so there was talk of banning women after that for awhile.

SO when anyone says how much better or worse AA was back in the good old days, that's like romanticizing our drinking careers, just not accurate.

AA is a lot like I am, in that it made every mistake known to man and even invented a few mistakes no one ever heard of, but seems to be doing OK today.

Navy Steve points that out a lot, that it's actually more impressive these guys had such checkered pasts (and presents) and still came up with such a beautiful deal.

It's not that they were such great guys and saints, it's they were human and frail and still came up with this that's impressive.

For me, anytime someone says "the good old days" what I hear is "I am going to rewrite history through my rose colored glasses now" kind of like anytime I hear "it's just business" that means "I am going to steal from you now" and i feel it's especially moronic for someone to talk about the good old days that wasn't even there.....

jimhere

I like the history too, especially the kind you mentioned Andrew. The kind no one wants to talk about or acknowledge or some even deny happened.

A book called "The Common Sense of Drinking" pre-dated AA. The book was written by a man named Richard Peabody, a recovered alcoholic from Boston, I believe. No doubt Bill read that book in his attempts at sobriety.

I happened to get ahold of a pdf copy of the book and as I read it, a few things were very clear. The line "Half measures availed us nothing" from Chapter 5 in The Big Book is lifted almost verbatim from "The Common Sense of Drinking." Also there is the story in that book of a man who wanted to be successful in business and decided not to drink until he was sucessful. He stayed sober for five years. Sound familiar? Only Bill decided that twenty-five years is more impressive. Kind of like the fish is this big when you catch it, but when you are telling the story, it is twice as big.

Then there is the story iof Rowland Hazard. Legend has it that Rowland worked with Jung for a year and the hooked up with The Oxford Group. Rhode Island historical records show that Rowland was in Europe for only about three months. He then came back to the states and got hooked with a man named Courtenay Baylor, recoverd alcoholic who was a lay therapist. Baylor had got sober in The Emannuel Movement in Boston and had been helped by Richard Peabody. Eventually Rowland did become associated with The Oxford Groups, but let's give credit where credit is due.

AW2486

The story or Frank Parkhurst & Bill W around the Big Book. Frank was Bill's first success in the New York area. They were connected at the hip during the whole book thing. Frank is one of the examples found in the Doctors Opinion. Frank was the person that nagged Bill about writing the book. Frank came up with the Works publishing Company idea to get money to pay Bill's rent so he could write the book. Frank hustled every cent he could from drunks to small companies to make the Big Book possible, and got drunk after it was published. Started publicly taking bad about Bill. It was all over money. Frank moved to Ohio and married Clarence Synder sister. I think I heard somewhere Clarence and Bill had differences over the traditions too.

The personality's of the early AA's is very interesting.

Jim B said it on his recording.. We were not saints... Just a bunch of drunks like the rest of AA.

jimhere

Andy,
You must mean Henry or "Hank" Parkhurst.

Hank Parkhurst died a miserable alcoholic death. And he wrote the most well written chapter in the book, IMO, "To Employers."

He is a classic example of the deflated ego's almost instantaneous reccuperative powers.

AW2486

Yes .. I meant Hank... glad I got his last name right. Thanks for the correction.

I did not know he authored "To Employers" Actually I've been reading "To Employers" this past week. Its interesting the first two pages he describes about three people he dealt with in his past that committed suicide.

The contributions some of the early AA's made and still ended up sadly drunk or dead.

jimhere

Yeah, pretty sad.

You mentioned Clarence. Clarence & Bill clashed as well. Clarence thought he wasn't getting the recognition he deserved. He considerd himself the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. I've seen copies of some letters there were exchanged between Clarence and Henrietta Seiberling in which some pretty nasty things were said about Bill. In fact Henrietta Seiberling called Bill the devil incarnate.

Problems of money, property, and prestige indeed.

AW2486

This has nothing to do with this thread.. but anybody heard Bob B from St. Paul ? Guess he was a active circuit speaker in the 80's & 90's .. we have him speaking tonight at our small town church basement potluck. Hope he lets me record him.

jimhere

Yes I've heard Bob. It's been quite a few years though.

Many circuit speakers are nothing more than entertainers. Bob has some depth to his message though.

AW2486

He let me record him. Briskly went through his drinking career and focused most on finding the power in recovery. He was oustanding. I will send it to the XA-Speakers site. Usually takes 2-3 weeks for them to post.

tomvlll

That's a fair point.

My take is this. There just certain people in AA who have knack for explaining things.
IMO, Joe and Charley are two of them. A guy by the name of Milt L.
is another. His 12 steps for Dummies is available for download on X speakers.

I would never us these as a substitute for the Big Book, rather as a complement.

Tommyh

now that we have been sober a while,we probably don`t appreciate Joe and Charlie as much as a newcomer would.How easy it is to forget sometimes.
I like the story of how they got started.Wesley P from Florida had heard them,liked them,and set up a dinner , invited a lot of guests.Under certain chairs he had sets of tapes taped to the bottom of the chairs.They gave them away during the meeting.It is said he even picked out the seats for the ones he wanted to get the tapes

navysteve

I agree with all that my friend, Joe and Charlie had a gift of gab and were able to communicate a message.

A Total $460 value for only $235
Crazy?? Not Near enough!
Buy 10 sets at $40 each and WE PAY THE SHIPPING.

From the Joe & Charlie Big Book Study::CDs & MP3 Downloads::Family Recovery::AA & Al-anon which boasts exclusive rights to record the Red Deer 2003 Big Book Study featuring world renowned AA speakers Joe & Charlie.

Its a shame, I used to love going to sessions by the sea in Ocean City MD, now I can't remember why we are there. Oh yeah, the concession stands...

AW2486

Bob B said some conferences he talks at the taper want him to sign a copyright agreement. He says he refuses every time.

tomvlll

No doubt. I just listened to a speaker tape by Jimmy Burwell.
He said the big book came from four books,
1. the common sense of drinking.
2. sermon on the mount.
3. varieties of rel, experience.
4 believing world.

sugErspun

Common Sense of Drinking

http://www.aabibliography.com/pdffil...inkPeabody.pdf

TTOSBT

I just wanted to thank you all. I really appreciate all the replies and input!!