Meetings affecting my confidence?-moving past the fear
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
The fellowship of fear is what I call it. Much of what is said in AA meetings are myths and lies rooted in fear. Few have the courage to question what is said. We hear crap like "My disease is out in the parking lot doing push-ups," You can never recover, you will always be recovering," "Don't get too well," "I go to meetings to see what happens to people who don't go to meetings," "It's a selfish program," and so forth. We teach the newcomer to stay sick. We blame alcoholism for bad behavior well into sobriety and say "Progress not perfection." We refuse to take responsibility for our own growth and for what we've been given.We let others do our thinking for us. We let other people make our decisions for us.
Early on, I couldn't trust my thinking, I was afraid of it and had good reason to be. But my sponsor promised me a new mind. He never told me that my mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone.
My sponsor encouraged me to question what I heard and find out for myself what these spiritual terms meant to me. He never taught me to depend on him. Instead he asked me if I was willing to place dependance on God ahead of dependance on people. He taught that it was OK to think for myself.
Early on, we are encouraged to question and to think. Even though it says that I must be satisfied that the new prospect is an alcoholic, I must be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. He must draw that conclusion himself. I can help him find out what he is, but I can't tell him what he is. In Chapter Three it says something to the effect "How then can we help our readers to determine to their OWN satisfaction whether they are one of us?" Even during the inventory, it talks of being able to access a place of intuition and inspiration-"In meditation we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come if we want it."
"Counsel with persons is often desirable, but in the end I let God (my conscience) be the final judge." In other words, I know the answer and all I have to do is listen. Of course I can only hear the still small voice if my mind is quiet and that involves clearing away the garbage.
After the Fifth Step, I am asked to return home and find a place where I can be quiet for an hour, reviewing the work I've done. There is a series of five questions that I ask myself. Before I move on to the Sixth Step, I have to answer these questions to MY satisfaction, not my sponsor's satisfaction. I generally move people fairly quickly through the steps, but if a man says he is not ready to move on, I do not coerce him. He either will or he won't.
By the time we are into amends, we are awake. It talks about intuitively being able to handle situations that used to baffle us. Sanity in regards to alcohol has been restored. The problem has been removed. I've came from a place of "My mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone" to proper use of the will. I can exercise my will along certain lines all I wish. God gave me a brain to use and I can use it with assurance it when my thinking is on a higher plane.
I can relax. I don't have to struggle or try to figure out life. Inspiration and intuitive thought become a working part of my mind and I come to rely on it. Doesn't mean that I won't make mistakes. I won't always be inspired and mistakes are part of the game.
Two statements sum it up for me. One is found in The New Testament. "For God does not come to us in a spirit of fear, but in a spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind." Kind of contradicts all the stuff that fundamental preachers are spewing and what you hear in AA meetings about God.
There is a statement on page 132 that, for me, sums it up as well: "We have recovered and have been given the power to help others." I'm not sick anymore, I'm not in the dark anymore, and I'm not powerless anymore. In fact I am powerful beyond measure. All the power that God has dwells within me. And it is all mine as long as I use it for what it is for.
All this does not mean that I don't need some spiritual direction. I have friends that I trust my life to and whom I trust to tell me the truth when I ask them. But I don't need a sponsor or anyone else in AA to run my life for me. And I'm too busy to run anyone else's life.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
Early on, I couldn't trust my thinking, I was afraid of it and had good reason to be. But my sponsor promised me a new mind. He never told me that my mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone.
My sponsor encouraged me to question what I heard and find out for myself what these spiritual terms meant to me. He never taught me to depend on him. Instead he asked me if I was willing to place dependance on God ahead of dependance on people. He taught that it was OK to think for myself.
Early on, we are encouraged to question and to think. Even though it says that I must be satisfied that the new prospect is an alcoholic, I must be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. He must draw that conclusion himself. I can help him find out what he is, but I can't tell him what he is. In Chapter Three it says something to the effect "How then can we help our readers to determine to their OWN satisfaction whether they are one of us?" Even during the inventory, it talks of being able to access a place of intuition and inspiration-"In meditation we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come if we want it."
"Counsel with persons is often desirable, but in the end I let God (my conscience) be the final judge." In other words, I know the answer and all I have to do is listen. Of course I can only hear the still small voice if my mind is quiet and that involves clearing away the garbage.
After the Fifth Step, I am asked to return home and find a place where I can be quiet for an hour, reviewing the work I've done. There is a series of five questions that I ask myself. Before I move on to the Sixth Step, I have to answer these questions to MY satisfaction, not my sponsor's satisfaction. I generally move people fairly quickly through the steps, but if a man says he is not ready to move on, I do not coerce him. He either will or he won't.
By the time we are into amends, we are awake. It talks about intuitively being able to handle situations that used to baffle us. Sanity in regards to alcohol has been restored. The problem has been removed. I've came from a place of "My mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone" to proper use of the will. I can exercise my will along certain lines all I wish. God gave me a brain to use and I can use it with assurance it when my thinking is on a higher plane.
I can relax. I don't have to struggle or try to figure out life. Inspiration and intuitive thought become a working part of my mind and I come to rely on it. Doesn't mean that I won't make mistakes. I won't always be inspired and mistakes are part of the game.
Two statements sum it up for me. One is found in The New Testament. "For God does not come to us in a spirit of fear, but in a spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind." Kind of contradicts all the stuff that fundamental preachers are spewing and what you hear in AA meetings about God.
There is a statement on page 132 that, for me, sums it up as well: "We have recovered and have been given the power to help others." I'm not sick anymore, I'm not in the dark anymore, and I'm not powerless anymore. In fact I am powerful beyond measure. All the power that God has dwells within me. And it is all mine as long as I use it for what it is for.
All this does not mean that I don't need some spiritual direction. I have friends that I trust my life to and whom I trust to tell me the truth when I ask them. But I don't need a sponsor or anyone else in AA to run my life for me. And I'm too busy to run anyone else's life.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by jimhere 
The fellowship of fear is what I call it. Much of what is said in AA meetings are myths and lies rooted in fear. Few have the courage to question what is said. We hear crap like "My disease is out in the parking lot doing push-ups," You can never recover, you will always be recovering," "Don't get too well," "I go to meetings to see what happens to people who don't go to meetings," "It's a selfish program," and so forth. We teach the newcomer to stay sick. We blame alcoholism for bad behavior well into sobriety and say "Progress not perfection." We refuse to take responsibility for our own growth and for what we've been given.We let others do our thinking for us. We let other people make our decisions for us.
Early on, I couldn't trust my thinking, I was afraid of it and had good reason to be. But my sponsor promised me a new mind. He never told me that my mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone.
My sponsor encouraged me to question what I heard and find out for myself what these spiritual terms meant to me. He never taught me to depend on him. Instead he asked me if I was willing to place dependance on God ahead of dependance on people. He taught that it was OK to think for myself.
Early on, we are encouraged to question and to think. Even though it says that I must be satisfied that the new prospect is an alcoholic, I must be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. He must draw that conclusion himself. I can help him find out what he is, but I can't tell him what he is. In Chapter Three it says something to the effect "How then can we help our readers to determine to their OWN satisfaction whether they are one of us?" Even during the inventory, it talks of being able to access a place of intuition and inspiration-"In meditation we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come if we want it."
"Counsel with persons is often desirable, but in the end I let God (my conscience) be the final judge." In other words, I know the answer and all I have to do is listen. Of course I can only hear the still small voice if my mind is quiet and that involves clearing away the garbage.
After the Fifth Step, I am asked to return home and find a place where I can be quiet for an hour, reviewing the work I've done. There is a series of five questions that I ask myself. Before I move on to the Sixth Step, I have to answer these questions to MY satisfaction, not my sponsor's satisfaction. I generally move people fairly quickly through the steps, but if a man says he is not ready to move on, I do not coerce him. He either will or he won't.
By the time we are into amends, we are awake. It talks about intuitively being able to handle situations that used to baffle us. Sanity in regards to alcohol has been restored. The problem has been removed. I've came from a place of "My mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone" to proper use of the will. I can exercise my will along certain lines all I wish. God gave me a brain to use and I can use it with assurance it when my thinking is on a higher plane.
I can relax. I don't have to struggle or try to figure out life. Inspiration and intuitive thought become a working part of my mind and I come to rely on it. Doesn't mean that I won't make mistakes. I won't always be inspired and mistakes are part of the game.
Two statements sum it up for me. One is found in The New Testament. "For God does not come to us in a spirit of fear, but in a spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind." Kind of contradicts all the stuff that fundamental preachers are spewing and what you hear in AA meetings about God.
There is a statement on page 132 that, for me, sums it up as well: "We have recovered and have been given the power to help others." I'm not sick anymore, I'm not in the dark anymore, and I'm not powerless anymore. In fact I am powerful beyond measure. All the power that God has dwells within me. And it is all mine as long as I use it for what it is for.
All this does not mean that I don't need some spiritual direction. I have friends that I trust my life to and whom I trust to tell me the truth when I ask them. But I don't need a sponsor or anyone else in AA to run my life for me. And I'm too busy to run anyone else's life.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
Early on, I couldn't trust my thinking, I was afraid of it and had good reason to be. But my sponsor promised me a new mind. He never told me that my mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone.
My sponsor encouraged me to question what I heard and find out for myself what these spiritual terms meant to me. He never taught me to depend on him. Instead he asked me if I was willing to place dependance on God ahead of dependance on people. He taught that it was OK to think for myself.
Early on, we are encouraged to question and to think. Even though it says that I must be satisfied that the new prospect is an alcoholic, I must be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. He must draw that conclusion himself. I can help him find out what he is, but I can't tell him what he is. In Chapter Three it says something to the effect "How then can we help our readers to determine to their OWN satisfaction whether they are one of us?" Even during the inventory, it talks of being able to access a place of intuition and inspiration-"In meditation we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come if we want it."
"Counsel with persons is often desirable, but in the end I let God (my conscience) be the final judge." In other words, I know the answer and all I have to do is listen. Of course I can only hear the still small voice if my mind is quiet and that involves clearing away the garbage.
After the Fifth Step, I am asked to return home and find a place where I can be quiet for an hour, reviewing the work I've done. There is a series of five questions that I ask myself. Before I move on to the Sixth Step, I have to answer these questions to MY satisfaction, not my sponsor's satisfaction. I generally move people fairly quickly through the steps, but if a man says he is not ready to move on, I do not coerce him. He either will or he won't.
By the time we are into amends, we are awake. It talks about intuitively being able to handle situations that used to baffle us. Sanity in regards to alcohol has been restored. The problem has been removed. I've came from a place of "My mind is a dangerous neighborhood to go into alone" to proper use of the will. I can exercise my will along certain lines all I wish. God gave me a brain to use and I can use it with assurance it when my thinking is on a higher plane.
I can relax. I don't have to struggle or try to figure out life. Inspiration and intuitive thought become a working part of my mind and I come to rely on it. Doesn't mean that I won't make mistakes. I won't always be inspired and mistakes are part of the game.
Two statements sum it up for me. One is found in The New Testament. "For God does not come to us in a spirit of fear, but in a spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind." Kind of contradicts all the stuff that fundamental preachers are spewing and what you hear in AA meetings about God.
There is a statement on page 132 that, for me, sums it up as well: "We have recovered and have been given the power to help others." I'm not sick anymore, I'm not in the dark anymore, and I'm not powerless anymore. In fact I am powerful beyond measure. All the power that God has dwells within me. And it is all mine as long as I use it for what it is for.
All this does not mean that I don't need some spiritual direction. I have friends that I trust my life to and whom I trust to tell me the truth when I ask them. But I don't need a sponsor or anyone else in AA to run my life for me. And I'm too busy to run anyone else's life.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
Thank you so much for saying these things. It parallels my understanding and experience as well. Good to hear this today
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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The other day I was talking with a man after a meeting. I've seen him around quite a bit and we've talked before. I like the man, he is a nice guy and very intelligent and well-read. In fact he is a physician. I think he is about five years sober.
He was telling me that he still can't trust his own thinking and at five years away from a drink still can't walk down the beer and wine aisle at the supermarket and has to come to a meeting every day to get the reminders of why he can't drink. I was telling him about my own experience and how I am free. I can go anywhere I want. He just didn't seem to want to hear it. Five years of AA meetings and going along with conventional AA wisdom will fill a man's head full of crap. Five years of fear-based sobriety, huddling together with the others in fear of "what's out there" will do that.
I didn't waste time or energy in trying to convince him of the error of that kind of thinking. Drinking alcohol convinced me that I can't drink alcohol and trying to live without alcohol and trying to "stay away from the first drink" by heavy meeting attendance and social activities convinced me that I can't live without alcohol.
It is none of my business how others stay sober, and I don't even get too upset by the stuff I hear anymore. It just saddens me to see people in AA living that way when I know they don't have to.
Jim
He was telling me that he still can't trust his own thinking and at five years away from a drink still can't walk down the beer and wine aisle at the supermarket and has to come to a meeting every day to get the reminders of why he can't drink. I was telling him about my own experience and how I am free. I can go anywhere I want. He just didn't seem to want to hear it. Five years of AA meetings and going along with conventional AA wisdom will fill a man's head full of crap. Five years of fear-based sobriety, huddling together with the others in fear of "what's out there" will do that.
I didn't waste time or energy in trying to convince him of the error of that kind of thinking. Drinking alcohol convinced me that I can't drink alcohol and trying to live without alcohol and trying to "stay away from the first drink" by heavy meeting attendance and social activities convinced me that I can't live without alcohol.
It is none of my business how others stay sober, and I don't even get too upset by the stuff I hear anymore. It just saddens me to see people in AA living that way when I know they don't have to.
Jim
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it takes what it takes Jim, that's the cool thing about this program, is we are there for the whole ride
I would "validate" this man's experience knowing that that's just where he is today, that there are meetings and other tools until he finds what we found, that may take relapse, he may never get it, he may get his "aha" on the way home today...but today I don't have to "know what's best" for other people, that's his "God's" job, but his experience will prove to be his most valuable asset, once again putting him in a position to help those I could not reach, not having had "his experience".
I love that bit in Doctor addict alcoholic where he talks about how when he found out he was an alcoholic it proved to be the best thing that ever happened to him, because it proved to him that he doesn't know whats best for him, and if he doesn't know whats best for him, maybe he doesn't know what's best for "you" or for anybody....
There is quite a bit of freedom there for me if I know where to look and not think I know "what's best" for others, b ecause the moment I think I know "what's best" for others sends me screaming back to the third step, reading about "our actor might be kind, considerate, generous etc but what happens, admitting he may be some what at fault, he is sure others are more to blame so he exerts himself more.....blah blah blah...../head pops like the martians in Mars Attacks.
I would "validate" this man's experience knowing that that's just where he is today, that there are meetings and other tools until he finds what we found, that may take relapse, he may never get it, he may get his "aha" on the way home today...but today I don't have to "know what's best" for other people, that's his "God's" job, but his experience will prove to be his most valuable asset, once again putting him in a position to help those I could not reach, not having had "his experience".
I love that bit in Doctor addict alcoholic where he talks about how when he found out he was an alcoholic it proved to be the best thing that ever happened to him, because it proved to him that he doesn't know whats best for him, and if he doesn't know whats best for him, maybe he doesn't know what's best for "you" or for anybody....
There is quite a bit of freedom there for me if I know where to look and not think I know "what's best" for others, b ecause the moment I think I know "what's best" for others sends me screaming back to the third step, reading about "our actor might be kind, considerate, generous etc but what happens, admitting he may be some what at fault, he is sure others are more to blame so he exerts himself more.....blah blah blah...../head pops like the martians in Mars Attacks.
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"It takes what it takes" can be valid, but it can also be a cop out. I can say "live and let live" while I sit and watch people die in Alcoholics Anonymous. Lots of times we talk about dying of alcoholism. Well I think an alcoholic can die of AA doing everything in AA but AA while we sit and watch and even tell him he's "Right where he's supposed to be" and "That this too shall pass."
When I was six months away from my last drink I was dying in AA. Dying of something I didn't know about and no one talked about. I desperately did not want to drink and hung out in meetings "staying away from a drink." If you'd have asked me why I was there I'd of said for the fellowship, but really it was so I could have a body next to me. Someone to share my fear with. And we'd huddle together in fear of what is "out there" and feed off of each other's sickness. And keep each other sick and perpetuate the myths. When I'd share what was going on, the noisy, busy head, the restlessness, the depression and misery, the aimless, pointless existence that I mistook for life, about how I didn't want to drink but wanted to drink, how I was terrified of being alone but couldn't stand being with people, about how I felt like I didn't even fit in in AA, they'd all nod their hods and tell me to "hang in there" and not to "quit before the miracle happens" and some of the other cliches that people who don't have a real answer through around so much that they've lost their meaning. People actually told me to read Dr. Paul's story and to just accept my lot in life. My God, if that is what I have to accept, I'd just as soon drink or blow my head off. If one more well-meaning but clueless person had said to me "This too shall pass," I was gonna grab them by the throat. Because it wasn't passing.
Thank God I encountered some men who knew that frothy emotional appeal doesn't suffice. These men talked out of experience and I knew that they knew what they were talking about. They talked with conviction and authority. There were no vague answers and no meaningless cliches. They said that their lives made sense to them and that could show me precisley how they had recovered. Later, after the meeting one of them said to me: "You know the people in AA who are telling you that you can't recover and will always have to stay sick and go to meetings to stay away from drinking are wrong. They are just expressing their own agnosticism." I'm glad that those guys had the courage to take an unpopular position.
I am not going to tell someone that they are OK when they are not. I'll let the head-knodders and AA lemmings do that.
Jim
When I was six months away from my last drink I was dying in AA. Dying of something I didn't know about and no one talked about. I desperately did not want to drink and hung out in meetings "staying away from a drink." If you'd have asked me why I was there I'd of said for the fellowship, but really it was so I could have a body next to me. Someone to share my fear with. And we'd huddle together in fear of what is "out there" and feed off of each other's sickness. And keep each other sick and perpetuate the myths. When I'd share what was going on, the noisy, busy head, the restlessness, the depression and misery, the aimless, pointless existence that I mistook for life, about how I didn't want to drink but wanted to drink, how I was terrified of being alone but couldn't stand being with people, about how I felt like I didn't even fit in in AA, they'd all nod their hods and tell me to "hang in there" and not to "quit before the miracle happens" and some of the other cliches that people who don't have a real answer through around so much that they've lost their meaning. People actually told me to read Dr. Paul's story and to just accept my lot in life. My God, if that is what I have to accept, I'd just as soon drink or blow my head off. If one more well-meaning but clueless person had said to me "This too shall pass," I was gonna grab them by the throat. Because it wasn't passing.
Thank God I encountered some men who knew that frothy emotional appeal doesn't suffice. These men talked out of experience and I knew that they knew what they were talking about. They talked with conviction and authority. There were no vague answers and no meaningless cliches. They said that their lives made sense to them and that could show me precisley how they had recovered. Later, after the meeting one of them said to me: "You know the people in AA who are telling you that you can't recover and will always have to stay sick and go to meetings to stay away from drinking are wrong. They are just expressing their own agnosticism." I'm glad that those guys had the courage to take an unpopular position.
I am not going to tell someone that they are OK when they are not. I'll let the head-knodders and AA lemmings do that.
Jim
Last edited by jimhere; 11-29-2008 at 01:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by jimhere
"It takes what it takes" can be valid, but it can also be a cop out. I can say "live and let live" while I sit and watch people die in Alcoholics Anonymous.
I am not going to tell someone that they are OK when they are not. I'll let the head-knodders and AA lemmings do that.
I am not going to tell someone that they are OK when they are not. I'll let the head-knodders and AA lemmings do that.
"that sounds good Jim you sound like you are doing OK" Andrew says nodding as he walks away for the cliffs in Nova Scotia
Case in point, it's not my job to tell others what they are thinking or doing is wrong, although I may completely disagree with them, they won't be able to "hear" me and we both end up irritated
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What he does with it is not my business. Fact of the matter is that he took the time to take me aside after the meeting and tell me about how he was doing. And because I care, I took the the time to listen to him. And because I care I told him that everything they had been telling him is wrong. Like I said, I am not there to convince him of anything.
I know where he is at because I've been there. And I also know the truth. That he doesn't have to be there.
I wasn't irritated a bit with the fact that he knows that he doesn't have to live that way and there is a better way. Just saddened.
You do what do, I'll do what I do.
I know where he is at because I've been there. And I also know the truth. That he doesn't have to be there.
I wasn't irritated a bit with the fact that he knows that he doesn't have to live that way and there is a better way. Just saddened.
You do what do, I'll do what I do.
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You either know or you don't.
Originally Posted by doorknob
That's right. Agnosticism means literally "I don't know."
They either know or they don't. You can always tell by what is said. To know doesn't mean to have intellectual knowledge. It means to have had the experience.
"The Wright Brothers almost childish faith that they could build a machine which would fly was the mainspring of their accomplishment. Without that nothing would have happened." You can either recover or you can't. If you believe that you can't, you won't. If believe what three quarters of the fellowship tells you, you can't. I'm grateful I listened to the one quarter who said "Sure you can. It happened to us and it can happen to you. Come with us and we'll get well together,"
To illustrate: And a disclaimer, this has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. When The Carpenter healed people and they were grateful and wanted to thank him, he would say "Don't thank me your faith has made you whole." So it has to do with a core belief, which is either true or false. The popular belief in AA is that you'll always be suffering and struggling to stay away from drinking. That you'll always be defective and powerless. Based on those beliefs, we stay powerless and in the dark, refusing to take responsibility for our own growth and for our own lives.
To quote a mentor of mine: "I have found spiritual power within myself."
Jim
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A bit like recovered Vs recovering.
I don't have much experience but I am trying to live the program, I have a sponsor that shares your views, Jim. I don't want to be 5 years sober and scared to go down the liquor aisle!
I don't have much experience but I am trying to live the program, I have a sponsor that shares your views, Jim. I don't want to be 5 years sober and scared to go down the liquor aisle!
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The thing is generally speaking I agree exactly with what Jim says, and I would have done exactly the same thing, however I don't profess to believe I always know whats best for others and I have this little thing called "Rule 62"* in my life.
I like Jim, he's a big man and wears some big britches, it's just that means he presents a "big target" in those britches sometimes, I just happen to know he's a big enough man to "take a shot" in those britches and explain what he means if I ask.
I just believe "one man can lead a horse to water but 20 can't "make him drink"
*Don't take yourself so damned seriously
(it's an "official" part of AA "lore", funny story actually)
I like Jim, he's a big man and wears some big britches, it's just that means he presents a "big target" in those britches sometimes, I just happen to know he's a big enough man to "take a shot" in those britches and explain what he means if I ask.
I just believe "one man can lead a horse to water but 20 can't "make him drink"
*Don't take yourself so damned seriously
(it's an "official" part of AA "lore", funny story actually)
Last edited by Ago; 11-29-2008 at 05:09 PM.
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To kind of clarify, because in some ways my last post was a bit vague, Jim had said in an earlier post that he thought he and I would "hang out" I absolutely believe this is true, because we have found something in which we absolutely agree on, which is the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
When I "go out" socially most of my "contemporaries" have between 18 and 25 years of sobriety, and we will be in restaurant surrounded by people that are drinking, yet we are as loud as or louder then any table because of our absolute belly laughing, a frequent topic of discussion and reason for our laughter is each other and our "character defects".
Being alcoholic, an alcoholic is an extreme example of being "self centered" although "he usually doesn't think so", so when we provide each other with "ammunition", which we do on a daily basis, the "pause", the "wind up", then "the pitch" along with howls of laughter are part of who we are, and you hear things like "don't sugar coat it, tell me how you really feel" and "ooooh, that's gonna leave a mark" are heard amidst the laughter.
A recent example was I was out with a friend who was whinging on and on about a break up, until I finally, in all seriousness asked him, "You know what the best revenge is don't you?"
"he looked confused and asked "what?"
I then replied, "The best revenge is living well, and I have to tell you, you are failing miserably at this endeavor!"
The book talks about some being shocked by our seeming worldliness and levity, this is just an example of that, all of my "questioning" of Jim is very much a "love based" questioning meant in fun, not questioning him or his program which is correct and strong.
I just happen to think that on occasion he might, just might, display one or two characteristics that all alcoholics share in common and maybe I might, just might, lob a small hand grenade in his path to see if he sees it. I would expect the same from him, or Steve, or Rufus, or Taz, or DK.
Just so I am perfectly clear on that.
When I "go out" socially most of my "contemporaries" have between 18 and 25 years of sobriety, and we will be in restaurant surrounded by people that are drinking, yet we are as loud as or louder then any table because of our absolute belly laughing, a frequent topic of discussion and reason for our laughter is each other and our "character defects".
Being alcoholic, an alcoholic is an extreme example of being "self centered" although "he usually doesn't think so", so when we provide each other with "ammunition", which we do on a daily basis, the "pause", the "wind up", then "the pitch" along with howls of laughter are part of who we are, and you hear things like "don't sugar coat it, tell me how you really feel" and "ooooh, that's gonna leave a mark" are heard amidst the laughter.
A recent example was I was out with a friend who was whinging on and on about a break up, until I finally, in all seriousness asked him, "You know what the best revenge is don't you?"
"he looked confused and asked "what?"
I then replied, "The best revenge is living well, and I have to tell you, you are failing miserably at this endeavor!"
The book talks about some being shocked by our seeming worldliness and levity, this is just an example of that, all of my "questioning" of Jim is very much a "love based" questioning meant in fun, not questioning him or his program which is correct and strong.
I just happen to think that on occasion he might, just might, display one or two characteristics that all alcoholics share in common and maybe I might, just might, lob a small hand grenade in his path to see if he sees it. I would expect the same from him, or Steve, or Rufus, or Taz, or DK.
Just so I am perfectly clear on that.
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Well to begin with dude, I don't take myself that seriously at all. But I do take alcoholism seriously. Deadly serious in fact. I've been around long enough to experience first hand watching alcoholics die the living death of the meeting makers make it brand of sobriety. So when an alcoholic who happens to be in the middle of that asks me what I think he should do, I am going to tell him from my own experience what I think. FYI, this not the first time he & I have had that conversation.
One question: Where did I claim to know what's best for anyone? I know what the guy needed because he told me what is going on with him. I don't claim exclusive knowledge of the truth or even to have all the answers. I do have an answer though if he cares to have it.
I come across the same way here as I do f2f. What you see is what you get. And I do understand that sometimes something gets missed in the electronic medium. Witness my failed attempt at humour in my reply to one of Steve's post yesterday.
Since you've given me license Ago (I hate using user names to address people), maybe I can point out that your posts do not come across as a "loving and in fun" lobbing of hand grenades. I respect where you are at and I don't mean this lightly, I see some real insight in what you post. But you remind me of myself at about nine months of sobriety when I was beginning to wake up to some really big Truth. I went around pointing out to men that had been walking this path for longer than I had been alive the error of their ways. They just smiled. And when I aggravated them, they would let me know. So this idea of lobbing grenades, "loving" or not, to see how one will react is ********. It is called baiting or trolling and I'll be the first to admit it irritates me. And when it irritates me, I'll let you know.
You can feel free to point out to me at any time when you feel that I've gone astray. Just make it clear that that is what you are doing is all. No need to be walk on eggshells around me.
Jim
One question: Where did I claim to know what's best for anyone? I know what the guy needed because he told me what is going on with him. I don't claim exclusive knowledge of the truth or even to have all the answers. I do have an answer though if he cares to have it.
I come across the same way here as I do f2f. What you see is what you get. And I do understand that sometimes something gets missed in the electronic medium. Witness my failed attempt at humour in my reply to one of Steve's post yesterday.
Since you've given me license Ago (I hate using user names to address people), maybe I can point out that your posts do not come across as a "loving and in fun" lobbing of hand grenades. I respect where you are at and I don't mean this lightly, I see some real insight in what you post. But you remind me of myself at about nine months of sobriety when I was beginning to wake up to some really big Truth. I went around pointing out to men that had been walking this path for longer than I had been alive the error of their ways. They just smiled. And when I aggravated them, they would let me know. So this idea of lobbing grenades, "loving" or not, to see how one will react is ********. It is called baiting or trolling and I'll be the first to admit it irritates me. And when it irritates me, I'll let you know.
You can feel free to point out to me at any time when you feel that I've gone astray. Just make it clear that that is what you are doing is all. No need to be walk on eggshells around me.
Jim
Last edited by jimhere; 11-29-2008 at 06:47 PM. Reason: spelling
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
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No eggshells here, I just don't believe I know whats best "for everyone else" and when I do I am, in my opinion, "being an extreme example of self centered" although I usually don't think so, I spent a LOT of years doing that and it ended poorly for me.
I felt I was very clear stating that, and by no means felt I was baiting or trolling but also stating that I was coming from a place of love because I agree with what you do and how you are doing it, I just get amused because I also see in you myself 15 years ago, when I "knew the answer" for everyone else.
I just don't think that way any more.
We do agree absolutely on the program of recovery outlined in the Book, it's our approach that is slightly different, and if someone comes and tries to force "his view" down my throat because he "knows it all" I admit I also get a trifle irritated because that's my job (to know it all)
I lived on a "spiritual and moral hilltop" for a lot of years and it was painful and lonely to "know it all" and to "know what's best for everyone else" and I couldn't understand why everyone wouldn't listen and "do it my way"
So yeah I view all this with a great deal of amusement and actually enjoy "wrestling with allegories on the banks of denial" to coin a pun.
Oh, my name is Andrew, sorry
I felt I was very clear stating that, and by no means felt I was baiting or trolling but also stating that I was coming from a place of love because I agree with what you do and how you are doing it, I just get amused because I also see in you myself 15 years ago, when I "knew the answer" for everyone else.
I just don't think that way any more.
We do agree absolutely on the program of recovery outlined in the Book, it's our approach that is slightly different, and if someone comes and tries to force "his view" down my throat because he "knows it all" I admit I also get a trifle irritated because that's my job (to know it all)
I lived on a "spiritual and moral hilltop" for a lot of years and it was painful and lonely to "know it all" and to "know what's best for everyone else" and I couldn't understand why everyone wouldn't listen and "do it my way"
So yeah I view all this with a great deal of amusement and actually enjoy "wrestling with allegories on the banks of denial" to coin a pun.
Oh, my name is Andrew, sorry
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
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Fair enough.
To tell you the truth the though, it isn't about my way or your way, at least not to me. It is as you have pointed out, about style and approach. I'm not too terribly lonely here on my "hilltop" though. In fact I have a sense of being connected to a whole lot of people, some of whom are not even in the same state. And a few have left the planet.
You didn't get it about not having "the answer' but having an answer, but that's OK.
Let's let this one lie, OK?
To tell you the truth the though, it isn't about my way or your way, at least not to me. It is as you have pointed out, about style and approach. I'm not too terribly lonely here on my "hilltop" though. In fact I have a sense of being connected to a whole lot of people, some of whom are not even in the same state. And a few have left the planet.
You didn't get it about not having "the answer' but having an answer, but that's OK.
Let's let this one lie, OK?
where the light is
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,763
Jim's quote:
One of the contradictions I see in AA. The oldtimers all talk about the Big Book as gospel. In the Big Book, the man in the Doctors opinion recovered in a year. Bill W. and his friend who helped him recovered in what appears to be a short period of time. Then why are people still drilling down on the same old resentments, still talking about only having today, and still scaring the hell out of each other years after the fact?
I am doing my second step 4 and I was told that I can now refine my old resentments to better understand them. But they don’t exist anymore! Can’t I let them go? I did my first step 4 last spring so this one is quite short & straightforward. People think I’m joking (or under some sort of delusion I suppose) when I tell them I really don’t have much to say! I am also being told that there is a danger of getting drunk while sitting on my step 4 so I better get my step 5 done quick. Huh? Writing my thoughts on paper doesn’t make me want to drink.
I just don’t get it. It’s almost like some people are keeping themselves spiritually sick. To me, the whole point of AA is to remove the drink problem – sober, no obsession – and to help others with the solution. I can honestly say that my drink problem is 99% removed (still get the occasional resentment about people who can drink). Night and day compared to 11 months ago. Recovering or recovered? I don’t know but I feel fine.
Jim's quote:
It saddens me to. While I do respect that people have serious issues to deal with, we don’t have to make it tougher than it is.
Today, I went to a meeting that was mostly newcomers. Rather than just listen to the negativity (it wasn’t all negative of course), I shared my own experience: how I don’t want to drink; how my life has improved by working through the 12 steps and by trying to live in accordance with spiritual principles. How I’m not sick anymore.
Afterwards, I had several of these people thank me, hopeful. Perhaps this is the only way I can really help others - by sharing my own experience, strength, and hope.
The fellowship of fear is what I call it. Much of what is said in AA meetings are myths and lies rooted in fear. Few have the courage to question what is said. We hear crap like "My disease is out in the parking lot doing push-ups," You can never recover, you will always be recovering," "Don't get too well," "I go to meetings to see what happens to people who don't go to meetings," "It's a selfish program," and so forth. We teach the newcomer to stay sick. We blame alcoholism for bad behavior well into sobriety and say "Progress not perfection." We refuse to take responsibility for our own growth and for what we've been given. We let others do our thinking for us. We let other people make our decisions for us.
I am doing my second step 4 and I was told that I can now refine my old resentments to better understand them. But they don’t exist anymore! Can’t I let them go? I did my first step 4 last spring so this one is quite short & straightforward. People think I’m joking (or under some sort of delusion I suppose) when I tell them I really don’t have much to say! I am also being told that there is a danger of getting drunk while sitting on my step 4 so I better get my step 5 done quick. Huh? Writing my thoughts on paper doesn’t make me want to drink.
I just don’t get it. It’s almost like some people are keeping themselves spiritually sick. To me, the whole point of AA is to remove the drink problem – sober, no obsession – and to help others with the solution. I can honestly say that my drink problem is 99% removed (still get the occasional resentment about people who can drink). Night and day compared to 11 months ago. Recovering or recovered? I don’t know but I feel fine.
Jim's quote:
It is none of my business how others stay sober, and I don't even get too upset by the stuff I hear anymore. It just saddens me to see people in AA living that way when I know they don't have to.
Today, I went to a meeting that was mostly newcomers. Rather than just listen to the negativity (it wasn’t all negative of course), I shared my own experience: how I don’t want to drink; how my life has improved by working through the 12 steps and by trying to live in accordance with spiritual principles. How I’m not sick anymore.
Afterwards, I had several of these people thank me, hopeful. Perhaps this is the only way I can really help others - by sharing my own experience, strength, and hope.
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
Originally Posted by gravity
Today, I went to a meeting that was mostly newcomers. Rather than just listen to the negativity (it wasn’t all negative of course), I shared my own experience: how I don’t want to drink; how my life has improved by working through the 12 steps and by trying to live in accordance with spiritual principles. How I’m not sick anymore.
Afterwards, I had several of these people thank me, hopeful. Perhaps this is the only way I can really help others - by sharing my own experience, strength, and hope.
You mentioned 'only having today', I think 'living in the day' is a good thing. I don't mean 'one day at a time' as far as drink is concerned (though that is a useful tool for a newcomer), I mean keeping everything in the day....even better is living in the present moment. It is in the present moment that I find my HP.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Gravity I wouldn't get too caught up in semantics ( recovered vs recovering). If you really listen, they are both saying the same thing.
We have ceased fighting anything or anyone also applies to people in AA. IF we have recovered then what is said in an AA meeting will not hold me.
IF you want to hide something from the drunk, put it in the Big Book. We who claim to be recovered must remember humility...
All BB quotes are from first edition
We have ceased fighting anything or anyone also applies to people in AA. IF we have recovered then what is said in an AA meeting will not hold me.
IF you want to hide something from the drunk, put it in the Big Book. We who claim to be recovered must remember humility...
All BB quotes are from first edition
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
When I hear people talk at an AA meeting, and they say things that seem to be "fear based" I remember the condition I was in when I came to AA. I might have been described as an ego maniac, with an infereority complex. The Big Book talks about the ego having to be smashed, but my ego seemed to be all that I had left, and yet I was so afraid of even going into a meeting to face others, I had to have help introducing myself. One of the first things I learned was that I do have a choice as to whether I drink again or not. I still have that choice concerning the first drink. However, my past has taught me that after that first drink, I'm powerless over the second, third, etc. The things I hear at AA meetings, aren't meant to hold me down, to keep me subserviant to the idea that alcohol has power over me so that I live in fear. I have to be reminded of my past and of my station in life so that I might remain humble to some degree so that I don't get the idea that I can somehow control my drinking because I'm smarter or more capable due my length of sobriety and what I've learned since being sober. I certainly do have a choice today as to whether or not to take that first drink, but I can't guarantee what will happen after that first drink. I still suffer to some degree, from untreated alcoholism which is why I still need to practice the AA principles and stay close to God. Sobriety is a gift. My sobriety is by God's grace as a result of His love for me. I know this because the day I got sober, AA was the last thing I had on my agenda.
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