Manners in A.A.
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Originally Posted by bugsworth 
Sorry to have stirred the pot it was not my intent...I was curious after reading Boleos post since as navysteve has said it is so hard get accurate stats.
Gods speed to all....
Gods speed to all....
bugs, you certainly haven't stirred the pot any more than I have by starting this thread. Honestly though, stirring the pot wasn't my intention. But, if it gets people to question and to think....not a bad thing, IMO. I will say that my point of view certainly isn't popular in the types of meetings that I was at last Friday.
Since I'm really too lazy to type a bunch of different posts, I'm going to address Robby's questions directed at me that he seems to think I don't want to answer.
Robby, the reasons I answered your question short and sweet is that that I didn't want to pontificate, as Rufus says. I thought I would direct you to the book. I can't say it any more clearly than what the book says. But since reading the book is pointless unless my experience validates what the book says, I will use the book AND my experience to attempt to expand on my statements.
On page 24, it says that at some point the alcoholic has passed into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutey no avail.
That means that so-called only requirement for membership is not enough. I did want to stop, but I thought there was something I was going to do about it. Adam pointed that out. I 've lost the power of choice. All the reasons why I shouldn't have that drink don't show up. I can't "think it through," because sometimes I don't think at all. If I do think about why I shouldn't have the drink, it is easily pushed aside by the lie that this time it will be different.
It is clear to me that this sort of thinking has been established in me. If that is the case I have probably placed myself beyond human aid.
Page 25 asks "What is the solution?" It goes on to say that most of us don't like inventory, confession, restitution,etc., but if we are at a place where there are no other options, there is not much else left to do. By the way, The Big Book isn't the solution, the steps aren't the solution, sponsoring and being sponsored aren't the solution, service isn't the solution, and meetings aren't the solution. They just lead to the solution. So what is the solution?
"....we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences that have revolutioned our whole attitude towards life, towards our fellows, and toward God's universe." That is the solution. A new mind, or a new pair of glasses, as Chuck Chamberlain used to call it.
It goes on to say that if I am as seriously alcoholic as they were, there is no middle-of-the-road solution. If I find living impossible and have passed into that region from which there is no return through human aid (the sort of thinking described on page 24), then I have two options. Go on to the bitter end or accept spiritual help.
You could have read it in the book, because the book just says what it says. But if your experience doesn't match up maybe the book won't sense.
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
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Originally Posted by Emimily
Quick fact sheet - I am 24. I have been sober by the grace of God and the program of action outlined in the book Alcoholics Anonymous since May 20, 2006. I have 3 sponsees, all of whom are under 26. I have a home group, service positions, a sponsor and a sponsorship family that I love and trust and turn to for guidance. I am a bit of a "thumper", mostly because I love how prolific the big book is and I love Bill W. and Dr. Bob and AA as a whole.
What I get out of a topic discussion like this is much what Ago pointed out - we can complicate ANYTHING. For me, my life revolves around trusting God, cleaning house, and helping others. When I do those 3 things on a daily basis, I'm cruising. I'm good. I'm happy and in love with life, mostly. Even when things are ******, if I'm doing those three things I'm okay and I'm moving along and the ******** passes a lot faster. It's that simple, for me. I tell my sponsees my experience, strength, and hope... if they dig it, we stick together. If they don't, they get another sponsor. It's all good in the hood.
HOWEVER - this thread is titled "Manners in A.A." and I have some serious beef with the way some young people act during meetings. Texting? Oh, you better hope I don't catch you texting during a meeting. My sponsees know that fully. Getting up, making noise, distracting others during a meeting... no dice. I have been that girl before, and thank GOD an older woman pulled me aside and pointed it out. My face burned with shame when she told me, but I am so grateful for that because it's important to show meetings respect. A.A. saved my life and gave me my life, all for free... the least I can do is sit down and shut up while I'm in a meeting.
With that said, I think 12 stepping someone outside a meeting is begging for an interruption. If your homegroup is anything like mine, about 80 people are gonna want to stick their hand out to the newcomer, welcome them, ask how they are, etc. etc. It's how we roll, and as a young person I can tell you that it's how I was taught to treat a newcomer. If two people are in a conversation, I'll wait for a break and then say "excuse me, I just wanted to introduce myself. My name's Emily, I'm glad you're here. Welcome, hope we keep seeing you!" I see NOTHING wrong with that. I think that's huge. That's the stuff that kept ME coming back, so I try to make it a point to follow that action. I've given my number to a lot of women who never call, but for every 11 or 12 that don't, there's the 1 or 2 that do and I have no way of knowing which girl it'll be.
I respect the hell out of you, Jim. You remind me so much of one of my very favorite older guys that is at my boyfriend's home group, he's so full of spirit and he's such a good example for younger folk in AA to follow. I love him, and I love you, and I am so glad you're here.
What I get out of a topic discussion like this is much what Ago pointed out - we can complicate ANYTHING. For me, my life revolves around trusting God, cleaning house, and helping others. When I do those 3 things on a daily basis, I'm cruising. I'm good. I'm happy and in love with life, mostly. Even when things are ******, if I'm doing those three things I'm okay and I'm moving along and the ******** passes a lot faster. It's that simple, for me. I tell my sponsees my experience, strength, and hope... if they dig it, we stick together. If they don't, they get another sponsor. It's all good in the hood.
HOWEVER - this thread is titled "Manners in A.A." and I have some serious beef with the way some young people act during meetings. Texting? Oh, you better hope I don't catch you texting during a meeting. My sponsees know that fully. Getting up, making noise, distracting others during a meeting... no dice. I have been that girl before, and thank GOD an older woman pulled me aside and pointed it out. My face burned with shame when she told me, but I am so grateful for that because it's important to show meetings respect. A.A. saved my life and gave me my life, all for free... the least I can do is sit down and shut up while I'm in a meeting.
With that said, I think 12 stepping someone outside a meeting is begging for an interruption. If your homegroup is anything like mine, about 80 people are gonna want to stick their hand out to the newcomer, welcome them, ask how they are, etc. etc. It's how we roll, and as a young person I can tell you that it's how I was taught to treat a newcomer. If two people are in a conversation, I'll wait for a break and then say "excuse me, I just wanted to introduce myself. My name's Emily, I'm glad you're here. Welcome, hope we keep seeing you!" I see NOTHING wrong with that. I think that's huge. That's the stuff that kept ME coming back, so I try to make it a point to follow that action. I've given my number to a lot of women who never call, but for every 11 or 12 that don't, there's the 1 or 2 that do and I have no way of knowing which girl it'll be.
I respect the hell out of you, Jim. You remind me so much of one of my very favorite older guys that is at my boyfriend's home group, he's so full of spirit and he's such a good example for younger folk in AA to follow. I love him, and I love you, and I am so glad you're here.
Aw, I'm not that old Em.
Coming from you I consider that a real compliment. I appreciate it, but even more, I appreciate your enthusiasm. You know the word enthusiasm comes from the Greek, literally "to be filled with God" don't you? I love you too, Em. Keep doing the work.
Jim
Last edited by jimhere; 11-19-2008 at 10:41 PM.
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we have found in AA something we can agree absolutely about, stay sober and help other alcoholics.
it's that simple.
Stay Sober and Help other alcoholics.
Amazing how complicated we can make it.
it's that simple.
Stay Sober and Help other alcoholics.
Amazing how complicated we can make it.
Statistics?????? The only stats I view as reliable are the ones I have personal experience with.
I have seen a ton of people come into AA and go out after only one meeting, several of them I spoke to for several hours after meetings and never heard from nor saw again.
I have seen a lot of folks show up and get their court papers signed and after thier sentence in AA is finished I never see them again.
I have seen people stay sober for a week to a year and go back out and get drunk again, the one thing they all seem to have in common that I know of is they never worked the steps. About half of these people do get a sponsor..... but never call them.
The above people I view as members of AA if they have a real desire to stop drinking, some do but are not ready to do the work yet from what I can tell, some have no desire to quit drinking, they are simply using AA to take the heat off of them.
Then there is the one guy I know, me..... I was desperate for a solution, yet I did not see one until I got out of detox and into AA. I followed suggestions, I got a sponsor and I worked the steps as laid out in the BB and I apply those steps as best I can in all of my affairs to the best of my ability. I am happy, I have no desire to drink at all, & I work with other alcoholics on a regular basis.
I stay sober thanks to my HP, I found an HP of my understanding by taking the 12 steps of AA, I maintain my spiritual condition by applying all of the steps I took to all of my affairs on a daily basis to the best of my ability.
I am part of the stats of my experience, my sponsor is as well, he stays sober thanks to his HP, he found an HP of his understanding by taking the 12 steps of AA, he maintains his spiritual condition by applying all of the steps he took to all of his affairs on a daily basis to the best of his ability.
All of my sponsees who are taking the steps have stayed sober, and the one who has taken them all, he stays sober thanks to his HP, he found an HP of his understanding by taking the 12 steps of AA, he maintains his spiritual condition by applying all of the steps he took to all of his affairs on a daily basis to the best of his ability.
These are the stats on AA that speak volumes to me, so far every person I know personally who has or had long term sobriety are the ones who have taken them all, they stay sober thanks to thier HP, they found an HP of thier understanding by taking the 12 steps of AA, they maintain thier spiritual condition by applying all of the steps they took to all of thier affairs on a daily basis to the best of thier ability.
To me the statistic which I put forth to my sponsees is that 100% of the alcoholics in AA that have taken all of the steps, found an HP of thier understanding who kept them sober, who have continued to apply the steps to all of thier affairs and maintained thier spiritual condition have stayed sober.
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Thank you Jim and Steve, your tolerance of me in this thread is greatly appreciated. My questioning of the 12 step approach no longer applies to me as it seems my son has decided to dance with the devil and I struggle to find answers that will make an impact on a 19 year old. Knowing I am sober he came to me about a month ago asking for help....I took him to aa even though his issue is not alcohol but pain killers...I asked him to listen...keep an open mind and simply find the parts that resonate with him. I know this worked for me and I pray that it might just be enough for him to find his way. I post this not to confuse the issue but to simply say that for me the MOTR solution worked, hopefully the same will be true for my son.
Thanks again...
Thanks again...
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bugs your son will be in my prayers, please let me/us know how he is doing. He may find a bit more applicable Experience in NA, but I know more then one addict that goes to AA meetings as well as NA meetings.
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Thanks Taz and Happy Birthday! I spoke with a few aa members before last nights meeting and they advised me that na is a dangerous place for a young person...too many active addicts to get drugs from. Just one more thing to lay awake at night thinking about. No matter my goal is to allow my son to find his own way, his own path, it need not be the one I walked. I blame myself for his addiction and need to make peace with myself...thanks for the prayers something one can never get enough of.
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Time To put this to rest folks. At least for me. Thanks everyone for sharing their views. Whether I'm in agreement is not the point, I feel that we've had a good, and for the most part civil discussion.
Bugs, you & your son are in my prayers as well. He is about the same age my boy was when he started having some trouble. He woke up and realized the error of his ways. Hopefully, that will be the case with your son as well.
Jim
Bugs, you & your son are in my prayers as well. He is about the same age my boy was when he started having some trouble. He woke up and realized the error of his ways. Hopefully, that will be the case with your son as well.
Jim
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Originally Posted by bugsworth
I blame myself for his addiction and need to make peace with myself
I was raised in a sober house, both my parents were drug and alcohol counselors. I had a fantastic upbringing. They never yelled at me or spanked me, they were home every night, when I would get in trouble they were firm but fair, heck they didn't even swear around us kids.
So why did I turn out to be a anti-social lying cheating stealing violent black out drunk?
Genetics?, Allergy? (my belief), fate?, or just the cards I was dealt. Whatever it was.. That is what happened. It was not their fault, as I believe it is not yours.
The person I hurt the worse in my drinking was my father. That man was so afraid of me, I could see him dying inside when he was around me those days.
But from the day I sobered up ,, until his death 15 years later.. we were best friends. He called it a miracle .. I hope someday you can experience what he was talking about.
Hang in there.. prayers with you and your son.
Andy
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Bugs I never saw either of my parents drink a single drop of alcohol, not did they do any drugs, yet I became what I became. I know people who have never drank, smoked, or did drugs that were raised by parents who were drunks and addicts.
One of my daughters does not drink at all today because of my drinking and where it took me.
Did your parents cause your drinking problem?
Bugs please do not feel guilty, you are not responsible for your sons problem.
One of my daughters does not drink at all today because of my drinking and where it took me.
Did your parents cause your drinking problem?
Bugs please do not feel guilty, you are not responsible for your sons problem.
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Originally Posted by doorknob
My mom did everything she could to keep me on the straight and narrow, yet I was out drinkin', smokin', sniffin', droppin'... it's just who I was. I don't know why...
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Bugs,
Your son is in my prayers as well. You must have done something right if he felt that he could talk to you about this. You and I may not always agree, but the fact that he opened up to you and you were open enough to take him to a meeting tells me that something is working for you
Your son is in my prayers as well. You must have done something right if he felt that he could talk to you about this. You and I may not always agree, but the fact that he opened up to you and you were open enough to take him to a meeting tells me that something is working for you
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Bugs,
I would like to expand on my post to you. First, did anyone "make" you an addict/alcoholic? I was born that way, I have seen others drink/use themselves that way. No one "made" me anything, although I like to use that as a tool to feel bad about myself, thinking I 'made" something only "God" has power over (think of that being said by an agnostic please)
I would also like to add I am absolutely glad you are here. You are a "recovering" alcoholic, and as such, you have my unconditional love and support.
My answer isn't yours, but I absolutely value your experience, precisely because it is different then mine.
My answer isn't for "everybody" and I'm not self centered enough to think I know "the answer" I have just been graced by God to be able to "carry the message" to a few alcoholics over the years, if the answer I have isn't helpful to you, let me know how I can help, I will "chop wood, carry water"
The first "speaker" meeting I ever went to had nearly 600 people there, the speaker stood up. and said, "My name is "A" (I still remember his name, although it was nearly 17 years ago) and I am an alcoholic.
I don't have to like you people
As a matter of fact, I don't like most of you
But I have to love you, and I have to answer the phone if you call.
I can't convey the profound impact his words had on me at that moment.
I knew I was in the right place.
The man just stood up, and told a roomful of 600 people he didn't like them, but he loved them.
I was home from that moment on.
That has become my truth today, although I suspect I like 2 or 3 more people then he did.
You, are absolutely a "value add" on this forum, and right now, any of us would do anything we could for you or your son...anything....
About 15 years ago when I was a snotfaced toerag punk kid with 2 years of sobriety that knew it all I attended a seminar hosted by Joe and Charlie that absolutely broke down the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous.
The next few years of my life were among the most painful I have ever endured, as I, "the new messiah" of AA with my vast experience ran around the rooms trying to show people how they were "doing it wrong".
Eventually my head popped and I drank, and I got to learn first hand what the expression "Preachers always drink" means.
Many of those "MOTR" people I had judged didn't drink, and were happy, joyous and free"
Many of those people have anywhere from 20 to 35 years of sobriety today.
The Big Book says, "we realize we know but a little, we have an answer that worked for us"
My years of being an absolute little buttmunch, running around telling everybody how they were "doing it wrong" didn't get one person sober, didn't help one person, not one person said "Andrew, I see the light, you have changed my life by telling me how I was "doing it wrong". Not that I didn't sponsor guys, just my approach to people of "you are all doing it wrong" was absolutely unhelpful.
My experience with this is vast and first hand.
I am and have been a moron of nearly biblical proportions repeatedly in my life and my sobriety.
Years later, after I had some years back under my belt, I was in a relationship in sobriety talking to my support group about my relationship woes, this snotfaced lil punk came up and started giving me relationship advice in the program.
I burst into laughter, and asked "Son, how old are you?"
18
I started laughing and said "Son, I was wrecking relationships in Sobriety when you were ten years old, why don't you let the "experts" wreck relationships here, come back after you start shaving"
a few years later he came and made amends to me, (good man btw still sober today) He apologized for that day, turned beet red, and said, the truth of the matter is he was a virgin when he was giving me relationship advice.
Anyway, my point is, I share my experience strength and hope here not my opinions nor my "advice", not something I saw on an episode of "Intervention", heard from some "speaker tape", or saw on "Oprah" or Dr. Phil all of which I have had cited as sources at me here at SR
Today, I look for people who speak from their own personal "experience" not from tapes, or speakers, or anecdotal stories.
There was thing they taught me when I was a paramedic, Subjective, Objective, Analysis, Plan
SOAP
Subjective: What did the people tell me (the ones that dialed 911)
Objective: What do I see with my own eyes
Analysis: self explanatory, however, for example, if I arrive at a single car accident, and it's an older person, this is just an example but I look for the cause of the accident, did they have a stroke? a heart attack? diabetes? what caused the accident? use the subjective and objective to "paint a picture" so I can "treat" the actual problem.
Plan: What am I going to do? Load and Go? Ask for help? (realizing if I am inadequate for situations will absolutely save lives, the reverse is true, I get in Ego, people die, it's that simple)
Out of everything there, "Subjective" is by far the weakest link, If I rely on "what other people tell me" I can't have an open mind, I miss key things, and people die.
Our resident "statistician" has pointed out
Now where he got the 50% from I have no idea but I'd check his rectum.
My point is, assuming he is correct, he states, that the MOTR method works for half the people here, the implication is it can work for you or your son.
The funny thing is for me, if I am judging someone else's program, it means I am not working my own
every time.
no exceptions
the other funny thing is when I judge someone elses program i am frequently wrong, I'll even go so far as to say usually.
I'll take 50% over 3-5% although I think we'd need a proctologist to get to the real root of all these stats.
Thank you for being here.
I love you, keep coming back, keep adding to the forum, keep giving us YOUR experience strength and hope, because you may be able to reach someone we cannot.
If we can help in any way, let us know.
I would like to expand on my post to you. First, did anyone "make" you an addict/alcoholic? I was born that way, I have seen others drink/use themselves that way. No one "made" me anything, although I like to use that as a tool to feel bad about myself, thinking I 'made" something only "God" has power over (think of that being said by an agnostic please)
I would also like to add I am absolutely glad you are here. You are a "recovering" alcoholic, and as such, you have my unconditional love and support.
My answer isn't yours, but I absolutely value your experience, precisely because it is different then mine.
My answer isn't for "everybody" and I'm not self centered enough to think I know "the answer" I have just been graced by God to be able to "carry the message" to a few alcoholics over the years, if the answer I have isn't helpful to you, let me know how I can help, I will "chop wood, carry water"
The first "speaker" meeting I ever went to had nearly 600 people there, the speaker stood up. and said, "My name is "A" (I still remember his name, although it was nearly 17 years ago) and I am an alcoholic.
I don't have to like you people
As a matter of fact, I don't like most of you
But I have to love you, and I have to answer the phone if you call.
I can't convey the profound impact his words had on me at that moment.
I knew I was in the right place.
The man just stood up, and told a roomful of 600 people he didn't like them, but he loved them.
I was home from that moment on.
That has become my truth today, although I suspect I like 2 or 3 more people then he did.
You, are absolutely a "value add" on this forum, and right now, any of us would do anything we could for you or your son...anything....
About 15 years ago when I was a snotfaced toerag punk kid with 2 years of sobriety that knew it all I attended a seminar hosted by Joe and Charlie that absolutely broke down the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous.
The next few years of my life were among the most painful I have ever endured, as I, "the new messiah" of AA with my vast experience ran around the rooms trying to show people how they were "doing it wrong".
Eventually my head popped and I drank, and I got to learn first hand what the expression "Preachers always drink" means.
Many of those "MOTR" people I had judged didn't drink, and were happy, joyous and free"
Many of those people have anywhere from 20 to 35 years of sobriety today.
The Big Book says, "we realize we know but a little, we have an answer that worked for us"
My years of being an absolute little buttmunch, running around telling everybody how they were "doing it wrong" didn't get one person sober, didn't help one person, not one person said "Andrew, I see the light, you have changed my life by telling me how I was "doing it wrong". Not that I didn't sponsor guys, just my approach to people of "you are all doing it wrong" was absolutely unhelpful.
My experience with this is vast and first hand.
I am and have been a moron of nearly biblical proportions repeatedly in my life and my sobriety.
Years later, after I had some years back under my belt, I was in a relationship in sobriety talking to my support group about my relationship woes, this snotfaced lil punk came up and started giving me relationship advice in the program.
I burst into laughter, and asked "Son, how old are you?"
18
I started laughing and said "Son, I was wrecking relationships in Sobriety when you were ten years old, why don't you let the "experts" wreck relationships here, come back after you start shaving"
a few years later he came and made amends to me, (good man btw still sober today) He apologized for that day, turned beet red, and said, the truth of the matter is he was a virgin when he was giving me relationship advice.
Anyway, my point is, I share my experience strength and hope here not my opinions nor my "advice", not something I saw on an episode of "Intervention", heard from some "speaker tape", or saw on "Oprah" or Dr. Phil all of which I have had cited as sources at me here at SR
Today, I look for people who speak from their own personal "experience" not from tapes, or speakers, or anecdotal stories.
There was thing they taught me when I was a paramedic, Subjective, Objective, Analysis, Plan
SOAP
Subjective: What did the people tell me (the ones that dialed 911)
Objective: What do I see with my own eyes
Analysis: self explanatory, however, for example, if I arrive at a single car accident, and it's an older person, this is just an example but I look for the cause of the accident, did they have a stroke? a heart attack? diabetes? what caused the accident? use the subjective and objective to "paint a picture" so I can "treat" the actual problem.
Plan: What am I going to do? Load and Go? Ask for help? (realizing if I am inadequate for situations will absolutely save lives, the reverse is true, I get in Ego, people die, it's that simple)
Out of everything there, "Subjective" is by far the weakest link, If I rely on "what other people tell me" I can't have an open mind, I miss key things, and people die.
Our resident "statistician" has pointed out
The thing that keeps the "real alcoholic" issue going is the fact that something like half of us are staying sober by using a spiritual solution and the other half are using psychological tricks & tips to stay sober.
My point is, assuming he is correct, he states, that the MOTR method works for half the people here, the implication is it can work for you or your son.
The funny thing is for me, if I am judging someone else's program, it means I am not working my own
every time.
no exceptions
the other funny thing is when I judge someone elses program i am frequently wrong, I'll even go so far as to say usually.
I'll take 50% over 3-5% although I think we'd need a proctologist to get to the real root of all these stats.
Thank you for being here.
I love you, keep coming back, keep adding to the forum, keep giving us YOUR experience strength and hope, because you may be able to reach someone we cannot.
If we can help in any way, let us know.
Last edited by Ago; 11-20-2008 at 09:42 AM.
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I am overwhelmed by the support given to me today...words cannot express. My heart aches for my baby, now a man, whom I have led a bad example for. Tears continue to fall as I know my roll in his addiction. When my son was born he was the first real blood relative I had the pleasure to know and he was the most amazing gift, I swore I would love and protect him...I failed...miserably. I knew my natural father was an alcoholic and that kept me from the drink until my late 20’s...my son was 8 or so when I started to drink heavily...he has seen more than any child should have too and I can never make amends to him...I took his childhood from him. I remember when he was 11 or so thinking that when I grew up I wanted to be just like him...kind, generous, loving and a joy to be around...still I drank and drank and drank. There came a time that I thought death a better option than having me as a mother...but alas I am a coward...too scared to kill myself and too afraid to stop drinking. I continued to drink and he continued to watch. My penance? Maybe...I have spent the last year and a half taking care of my sobriety...watching him once again watch me. He is speaking to an addiction specialist weekly in addition to one aa meeting a week. I know that his recovery is up to him just like mine was up to me...will this be enough? Time will tell. I can only do what I have done before...set an example.
Again, thank you...it is not enough but I am limited to words...Gods Speed to you all.
Again, thank you...it is not enough but I am limited to words...Gods Speed to you all.
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