Off topic thread
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory 
Remember though that this is focused on the addict/alcoholic's recovery and not the family or friends. That is on topic for this forum, but not for the general family and friends forums. The focus of those forums is our recovery not the addict or alcoholic's recovery.
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Originally Posted by allforcnm
I think there should be a post on the main family forums to remind everyone the forums are for the family members recovery only. so there should be no more discussion of what the addict needs to do for their recovery, and all of the dissection of the addicts recovery plan, or lack of.., the addicts attitude being correct or not, at what point the addict is ready for treatments, etc.. None of that has to do with the family members own recovery. It could eliminate a LOT of the issues if those forums just focus on what the family member is doing for themselves.
EDITED TO ADD - is this a sincere attempt at a solution? If so, how will that help to promote Craft?
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I want to thank you as well, Morning Glory, for attempting to resolve this, and for giving members a chance to air their emotions out on the subject. I am sure that, whatever the eventual resolution, it will be a measured and wise one.
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory
Changing the forums didn't solve the problem.
Changing them again won't solve the problem.
That would be like telling an addict to move to a new home or paint it a different color and their problem is solved. Solving a problem like this takes some effort.
Each person has to be aware of what triggers others. Each person needs to compromise and avoid things that trigger and avoid making passive aggressive remarks or asking questions and not really seeking an answer.
Let the program you follow stand alone. There is no need to say what it isn't. Just say what it is. Why would you need to say your program is non-12 step? That would be like saying I use Al-anon which is a non-Craft program. I use non-Craft doctors. I use a non-Craft rehab. It just doesn't make much sense and only creates hard feeling and resentments.
If you don't use Craft don't disagree with a post by a Craft member and start an argument on another person's thread. Let the thread starter make their own decisions. They can process all the information and experience themselves. Most people come here with the ability to read and process information and eventually take an action that they are comfortable with. Stop competing. It's really apparent that both sides feel that some information can be dangerous. You can express your feelings to the poster without discrediting what another person shares. It would be 2 different opinions.
Don't talk about what you disagree with about another persons program and compare the differences. Just share what works for you. Don't talk about not believing in rock bottom. Don't talk about not being codependent. Don't talk about enabling the way another program feels about it. Again let your program stand alone without discrediting another program. All these things cause anger and resentments.
The scientific approach and evidence based treatment statements really bother me. Not on face value, but because it "feels" like it is being used to discredit all the other rehabs and treatment centers. I think others have that same feeling. I don't have a solution for that.
Create your own stickies or threads with detailed information on the method you practice. Don't just keep posting vague information. If you really want to give members information about Craft you will need details. Not vague details. I'm talking about details that teach how you changed your behavior and specific action you take to make things better. No one is going to want to invade your All About Me thread so that's not a good place to help the general members. Go take a look at the AVRT threads on the other Secular forum. It is very specific in explaining that method and has no need to be labeled as non 12 step.
Stop making every post on the general forum about your program information. Talk to the person. Don't promote a program, talk to a person. Build up this forum with Craft information. Believe me they will all find it and get the information. Don't make it like an encyclopedia. Make it personal. Share experience and share your story. It will be a lot easier to just offer Craft like others offer Al-anon if you have a handy place to send them for information. If there are too many 12 step stickies on the other forum and you can't compete with that just put them up here.
Stop fighting with each other. Stop giving information on the program you don't use.
Mind your own business.
Changing them again won't solve the problem.
That would be like telling an addict to move to a new home or paint it a different color and their problem is solved. Solving a problem like this takes some effort.
Each person has to be aware of what triggers others. Each person needs to compromise and avoid things that trigger and avoid making passive aggressive remarks or asking questions and not really seeking an answer.
Let the program you follow stand alone. There is no need to say what it isn't. Just say what it is. Why would you need to say your program is non-12 step? That would be like saying I use Al-anon which is a non-Craft program. I use non-Craft doctors. I use a non-Craft rehab. It just doesn't make much sense and only creates hard feeling and resentments.
If you don't use Craft don't disagree with a post by a Craft member and start an argument on another person's thread. Let the thread starter make their own decisions. They can process all the information and experience themselves. Most people come here with the ability to read and process information and eventually take an action that they are comfortable with. Stop competing. It's really apparent that both sides feel that some information can be dangerous. You can express your feelings to the poster without discrediting what another person shares. It would be 2 different opinions.
Don't talk about what you disagree with about another persons program and compare the differences. Just share what works for you. Don't talk about not believing in rock bottom. Don't talk about not being codependent. Don't talk about enabling the way another program feels about it. Again let your program stand alone without discrediting another program. All these things cause anger and resentments.
The scientific approach and evidence based treatment statements really bother me. Not on face value, but because it "feels" like it is being used to discredit all the other rehabs and treatment centers. I think others have that same feeling. I don't have a solution for that.
Create your own stickies or threads with detailed information on the method you practice. Don't just keep posting vague information. If you really want to give members information about Craft you will need details. Not vague details. I'm talking about details that teach how you changed your behavior and specific action you take to make things better. No one is going to want to invade your All About Me thread so that's not a good place to help the general members. Go take a look at the AVRT threads on the other Secular forum. It is very specific in explaining that method and has no need to be labeled as non 12 step.
Stop making every post on the general forum about your program information. Talk to the person. Don't promote a program, talk to a person. Build up this forum with Craft information. Believe me they will all find it and get the information. Don't make it like an encyclopedia. Make it personal. Share experience and share your story. It will be a lot easier to just offer Craft like others offer Al-anon if you have a handy place to send them for information. If there are too many 12 step stickies on the other forum and you can't compete with that just put them up here.
Stop fighting with each other. Stop giving information on the program you don't use.
Mind your own business.
Maybe i just need to stick to the About Us thread, as that is where I get the majority of my support.
As I said earlier, the history of this whole thing has not been explained. There are vague references to things but no one is coming out and saying, "this is the history, this is the problem " So i can only respond with the knowledge I have since I joined SR this past summer, and came over to the secular forum in Oct. I have only seen people here who are supportive, caring, open and honest. They have shared their stories with me, listened to me as I cried, heard my fears and calmed me. They taught me and answered my sometimes stupid questions and never laughed (at least they tell me they didn't) This history that you talk about, i have not seen. And perhaps whatever is the problem has been gone for a while, just some people can't let it go.
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Pink Clouds Charley ...
The history is misinformation, that simple and at times a person not wanting at all to accept the truth. And the history is right here. You can for instance read posts back to 2006 on the family board of substance abusers if you were so inclined. I do know they use locks here to shut threads down but I don’t know if threads are ever removed totally, posts in them may be.
Yet maybe the only history important is that of the programs available. And I hope no one just jumps into a program without doing their own research.
The programs never were the problem, it is the people that screw it all to hell.
No program will save anyone.
No program has the control to fix this problem.
People professing any program for the masses are people spewing crap.
A person sharing what has worked for them and no one but them (without taking swipes at another program) is something different and still isn’t about a program. But it is where they were willing to save themselves and where they put the time in to do something, anything.
The history is misinformation, that simple and at times a person not wanting at all to accept the truth. And the history is right here. You can for instance read posts back to 2006 on the family board of substance abusers if you were so inclined. I do know they use locks here to shut threads down but I don’t know if threads are ever removed totally, posts in them may be.
Yet maybe the only history important is that of the programs available. And I hope no one just jumps into a program without doing their own research.
The programs never were the problem, it is the people that screw it all to hell.
No program will save anyone.
No program has the control to fix this problem.
People professing any program for the masses are people spewing crap.
A person sharing what has worked for them and no one but them (without taking swipes at another program) is something different and still isn’t about a program. But it is where they were willing to save themselves and where they put the time in to do something, anything.
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Originally Posted by PinkCloudsCharley
This history that you talk about, i have not seen. And perhaps whatever is the problem has been gone for a while, just some people can't let it go.
Originally Posted by Bluechair
One problem I think is the views held in the United States have developed over decades of misinformation and its ingrained into societies ideas now. With relapse you see clearly the idea of abstinence only. One slip up and tough love kicks in, and the idea of enabling, and rock bottom arise because obviously the person didnt want recovery bad enough and needs harsher consequences.
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I dont know the full history but I do know when I came here what I found disturbing was people pushed the views of alanon, tried to actively convince me I suffered from codependency to the point of having conversations discussing my denial on my own threads. This was demeaning and offensive. Because of this I grew defensive. If people had shared the concept, and talked about codependency in their OWN lives and left it there, then a lot of hard feelings could have bee avoided.
Another thing I have been disturbed by is how people would latch onto my husband and begin to analyze him, every word, action, his participation in treatments. And their standard was always AA. I dont know if it was intentional or caused by their own experiences but it felt like they were constantly trying to make me paranoid, doubting him, and I had to stop sharing because it was undermining my recovery and work on my marriage
I have never went looking for the drama. I even left and moved to the substance abuse forum so I could find peace and only talk with my friends who understood me. But would you believe then i had a member come and take my shares there and bring it back to the family forum, start a thread to attack what was being shared. This was before I was even doing craft stuff. I was only in counseling then.
You commented on our chat thread Morning Glory. Its the only place on SR I feel safe to share my own personal challenges, worries, or ask questions. Until SR feels safe I wont share more here. I will use other sources and share only pieces here.
Compassion goes both ways, caring about the cocerns of others even if they are not your own goes both ways. Most of the people who are here complaining about me, about craft programs are in a different place than me. Im in a marriage with someone who used substances, Im committed to making the relationship work and taking care of my own emotional needs at the same time, ive been dealing with early recovery, paws, and lots of other issues this past year.
I tried to understand each approach offered here. I still to this day do not know what people do in alanon. All I ever see mentioned is detachment, boundaries, recommendations to go to meetings and work the steps, lots of discussion of the AA program and what the spouse has to do, plus venting.
I know Im triggered by all the talk of AA, and if what you say is true MorningGlory and the focus is to be on the family members recovery only, then most the talk of AA will stop. People wont have a need to talk about rock bottom unless its their own.
People will share their own experience and not make it sound like this is the way it is for everyone. If new people come, they wont be told theres nothing you can do to help when they ask. Instead something like, we focus on the family member here not the loved one. And if a person shares more it will NOT be philosophical about how people need to hit rock bottom. It will be a personal share of what it took for their spouse, or in the case of a double winner how they personally found help. I see the difference and personal shares would not trigger me Its the shares that say THIS is the way, and particularly THIS is the AA view for all. I also think this is one reason Non 12 step people WANT to be clearly separated from these ideas. Its made to sound like their way is the way. This causes us to get defensive. Then if we get defensive, they get defensive. So i see what your saying People Have to Change. BUT we all do.
I hope it happens Morning Glory. I would love to see alanon members talk only about their recovery and stop talking AA and about what other peoples spouses need to do. I will do my best when I go to the main forums to follow this too.
Another thing I have been disturbed by is how people would latch onto my husband and begin to analyze him, every word, action, his participation in treatments. And their standard was always AA. I dont know if it was intentional or caused by their own experiences but it felt like they were constantly trying to make me paranoid, doubting him, and I had to stop sharing because it was undermining my recovery and work on my marriage
I have never went looking for the drama. I even left and moved to the substance abuse forum so I could find peace and only talk with my friends who understood me. But would you believe then i had a member come and take my shares there and bring it back to the family forum, start a thread to attack what was being shared. This was before I was even doing craft stuff. I was only in counseling then.
You commented on our chat thread Morning Glory. Its the only place on SR I feel safe to share my own personal challenges, worries, or ask questions. Until SR feels safe I wont share more here. I will use other sources and share only pieces here.
Compassion goes both ways, caring about the cocerns of others even if they are not your own goes both ways. Most of the people who are here complaining about me, about craft programs are in a different place than me. Im in a marriage with someone who used substances, Im committed to making the relationship work and taking care of my own emotional needs at the same time, ive been dealing with early recovery, paws, and lots of other issues this past year.
I tried to understand each approach offered here. I still to this day do not know what people do in alanon. All I ever see mentioned is detachment, boundaries, recommendations to go to meetings and work the steps, lots of discussion of the AA program and what the spouse has to do, plus venting.
I know Im triggered by all the talk of AA, and if what you say is true MorningGlory and the focus is to be on the family members recovery only, then most the talk of AA will stop. People wont have a need to talk about rock bottom unless its their own.
People will share their own experience and not make it sound like this is the way it is for everyone. If new people come, they wont be told theres nothing you can do to help when they ask. Instead something like, we focus on the family member here not the loved one. And if a person shares more it will NOT be philosophical about how people need to hit rock bottom. It will be a personal share of what it took for their spouse, or in the case of a double winner how they personally found help. I see the difference and personal shares would not trigger me Its the shares that say THIS is the way, and particularly THIS is the AA view for all. I also think this is one reason Non 12 step people WANT to be clearly separated from these ideas. Its made to sound like their way is the way. This causes us to get defensive. Then if we get defensive, they get defensive. So i see what your saying People Have to Change. BUT we all do.
I hope it happens Morning Glory. I would love to see alanon members talk only about their recovery and stop talking AA and about what other peoples spouses need to do. I will do my best when I go to the main forums to follow this too.
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Does CRAFT teach that an addicted person will out grow addiction? If my memory serves me correctly, and it doesn't always, I have read that twice by two different CRAFT posters.
Also, while in therapy, I hit my "rock bottom" with my STBXAH. I knew I was done and could no longer be a partner or be in a team with someone so sick. It took a lot of hard work to face my fears and believe I deserved a healthier partner. I am proud of that decision and I am not sure why some want to shame the posters that have made the same choice.
Also, while in therapy, I hit my "rock bottom" with my STBXAH. I knew I was done and could no longer be a partner or be in a team with someone so sick. It took a lot of hard work to face my fears and believe I deserved a healthier partner. I am proud of that decision and I am not sure why some want to shame the posters that have made the same choice.
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Originally Posted by FindingMe2
Does CRAFT teach that an addicted person will out grow addiction? If my memory serves me correctly, and it doesn't always, I have read that twice by two different CRAFT posters.
Also, while in therapy, I hit my "rock bottom" with my STBXAH. I knew I was done and could no longer be a partner or be in a team with someone so sick. It took a lot of hard work to face my fears and believe I deserved a healthier partner. I am proud of that decision and I am not sure why some want to shame the posters that have made the same choice.
Also, while in therapy, I hit my "rock bottom" with my STBXAH. I knew I was done and could no longer be a partner or be in a team with someone so sick. It took a lot of hard work to face my fears and believe I deserved a healthier partner. I am proud of that decision and I am not sure why some want to shame the posters that have made the same choice.
Craft is based on the science of addiction, research. It says recovery is different for everyone. From what Ive seen, research shows many people stop using all on their own. You could read some professional journals on the topic. I know nothing about your ex so I cant comment on him.
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Originally Posted by FindingMe2
Does CRAFT teach that an addicted person will out grow addiction? If my memory serves me correctly, and it doesn't always, I have read that twice by two different CRAFT posters.
Also, while in therapy, I hit my "rock bottom" with my STBXAH. I knew I was done and could no longer be a partner or be in a team with someone so sick. It took a lot of hard work to face my fears and believe I deserved a healthier partner. I am proud of that decision and I am not sure why some want to shame the posters that have made the same choice.
Also, while in therapy, I hit my "rock bottom" with my STBXAH. I knew I was done and could no longer be a partner or be in a team with someone so sick. It took a lot of hard work to face my fears and believe I deserved a healthier partner. I am proud of that decision and I am not sure why some want to shame the posters that have made the same choice.
I believe you may be referring to a post i made about my H and what was said by our counselor. He said literature supports that sometimes, some people are able to have A Single Drink without the mental relapse. Wasn't craft, was our non 12 step non craft private counsellor. I was asking what the literature says about that. Never suggested anything different, if memory serves me correctly.
And surprisingly, there is a lot of literature to support that. New studies not craft or AA based.
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I was thinking about stickies. On the secular forum, for those threads that you feel are good information, just ask the mods if they would make them stickies, like the NIDA information, the 20 minute guide, and other things that you frequently reference. Then when newbies visit the forum, they will be able to quickly see what it's about without having to dig through multilple pages of threads. Just a thought.
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Come On You Guys. Work Toward Solving The Problem. If You Attack Each Other Here You Will Continue It On The Forums.If I Commented On Chat Thread Of Yours Blue It Probably Was A Reported Post. I'll Be Back Later. I'm Not Good Using My Phone.
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No Charlie, it wasn't one of your posts.
Thank you Bluechair. Your post was very kind. But that's also the point, I don't want anyone to comment on my husband. I am using a therapist to help me. I value her opinion as she is a trained professional. I do however find help and support when reading many poster's experiences. But the armchair therapists really turn me off.
Thank you Bluechair. Your post was very kind. But that's also the point, I don't want anyone to comment on my husband. I am using a therapist to help me. I value her opinion as she is a trained professional. I do however find help and support when reading many poster's experiences. But the armchair therapists really turn me off.
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One of the first things my daughter's rehab instructed us loved ones to do, was "wait for the question." The more I read this thread, the more I think that might be a good way to approach each other. If people want to know what program someone works, maybe it would be a good idea to let them ask. Promotion by attraction, so to speak 
I have to say, though, that I've not ever read anyone asking that question on these forums, but I have been asked that in 'real' life.
I have to say, though, that I've not ever read anyone asking that question on these forums, but I have been asked that in 'real' life.
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Buechair and Allforcnm,
There really is no way to micromanage what everyone posts. It is also not black and white. There are times when it's on topic from the Original Poster that suggestions can be made from either program on how to help a loved one. One example would be if a parent posted. Another would be if the OP asked how to help their loved one and they aren't in danger.
I think staying on topic is the main goal. I said before that posts from Craft are often program promoting rather than really sharing from personal experience. The members over there don't post about their program in most posts. They share from their experience or give advice from their beliefs. They offer suggestions to attend Al-anon meetings. AA doesn't come up much unless the OP is talking about it.
Most of the time when they share about not being able to help or that the loved one needs to hit bottom the focus is on showing the OP that recovery has to be initiated by the alcoholic/addict. They don't refer to Craft when they share. They don't say they are non Craft and try to discredit anyone. They just share from what they believe. I know you don't believe the same, but they do.
All I'm asking is to keep the main focus on the topic of the thread and share from what you believe. Stop comparing it to what someone else believes. Don't discredit what someone else believes to be true. I don't divide up what I believe into "nons". I just do what I think is right for me. I do not and never will follow a blanket method. I think there are times I should help and times it would be better not to help. I don't care what program that fits into because I'm not competing or promoting a program.
The key here is I do what is right for me. I don't know what is right for another person. I'm not going to try to persuade anyone to follow my path. What they do is none of my business. I don't want to be responsible for a decision they make. I want to give them as much information as possible so THEY can make an informed choice. I want them to know what risks might be involved with choices and actions they might take. If I say my way is the right way and push it on someone else they might take a risk before they are ready for the consequences. Charley was touching on that when she was talking about calling an ambulance.
I accept all these programs, but I really have a hard time with the passive aggressive posts. I have a hard time with arrogance in posts that assume that someone is doing something wrong. I have a hard time with the fights on the threads that ignore the OP and talk about their situation as if they aren't part of it. That is really no one's business. I have a hard time with program promoting. I have a hard time seeing someone flyby to promote a program or drop one liners that are shaming or insulting.
If we would just talk about what we have done personally and treat everyone with respect we would give the OP the freedom of choice. If we get to know the member really, really well we can be a little more specific.
I was also thinking that everyone could use their signature to identify the program they use if they want to.
I'm open to suggestions, but I can't perform miracles.
There really is no way to micromanage what everyone posts. It is also not black and white. There are times when it's on topic from the Original Poster that suggestions can be made from either program on how to help a loved one. One example would be if a parent posted. Another would be if the OP asked how to help their loved one and they aren't in danger.
I think staying on topic is the main goal. I said before that posts from Craft are often program promoting rather than really sharing from personal experience. The members over there don't post about their program in most posts. They share from their experience or give advice from their beliefs. They offer suggestions to attend Al-anon meetings. AA doesn't come up much unless the OP is talking about it.
Most of the time when they share about not being able to help or that the loved one needs to hit bottom the focus is on showing the OP that recovery has to be initiated by the alcoholic/addict. They don't refer to Craft when they share. They don't say they are non Craft and try to discredit anyone. They just share from what they believe. I know you don't believe the same, but they do.
All I'm asking is to keep the main focus on the topic of the thread and share from what you believe. Stop comparing it to what someone else believes. Don't discredit what someone else believes to be true. I don't divide up what I believe into "nons". I just do what I think is right for me. I do not and never will follow a blanket method. I think there are times I should help and times it would be better not to help. I don't care what program that fits into because I'm not competing or promoting a program.
The key here is I do what is right for me. I don't know what is right for another person. I'm not going to try to persuade anyone to follow my path. What they do is none of my business. I don't want to be responsible for a decision they make. I want to give them as much information as possible so THEY can make an informed choice. I want them to know what risks might be involved with choices and actions they might take. If I say my way is the right way and push it on someone else they might take a risk before they are ready for the consequences. Charley was touching on that when she was talking about calling an ambulance.
I accept all these programs, but I really have a hard time with the passive aggressive posts. I have a hard time with arrogance in posts that assume that someone is doing something wrong. I have a hard time with the fights on the threads that ignore the OP and talk about their situation as if they aren't part of it. That is really no one's business. I have a hard time with program promoting. I have a hard time seeing someone flyby to promote a program or drop one liners that are shaming or insulting.
If we would just talk about what we have done personally and treat everyone with respect we would give the OP the freedom of choice. If we get to know the member really, really well we can be a little more specific.
I was also thinking that everyone could use their signature to identify the program they use if they want to.
I'm open to suggestions, but I can't perform miracles.
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I got your reported posts Bluechair, which just shows me you are still at it and not trying to solve the problem. It is not a competition.
Offering a program with one sentence and a link is much different than posting huge paragraphs promoting a program in EVERY post.
If anyone from either side wants to keep this going they will be banned.
I appreciate everyone who participated in the thread.
I spent my time trying to help all involved. I had two funerals this week and my cat died, but I still put in the effort. Can't you at least try?
Offering a program with one sentence and a link is much different than posting huge paragraphs promoting a program in EVERY post.
If anyone from either side wants to keep this going they will be banned.
I appreciate everyone who participated in the thread.
I spent my time trying to help all involved. I had two funerals this week and my cat died, but I still put in the effort. Can't you at least try?
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