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Old 03-27-2015, 01:39 PM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by PinkCloudsCharley View Post
I respectfully disagree. I think Blue brings awareness to a method that is not talked about much. Had she not specifically referenced it, I would never had known.

Until we have stickies that we can refer people to, we need to be able to talk about the option of various methods, and allow the OP to make his or her own decisions.

I do know that the phrases "Are you going to Al Anon?"or "Try an Al Anon meeting" are standard and I see them in response to almost every new post. I had it asked of me numerous times before Blue referenced SMART.
When I came here I was presented alanon. Hopeful presented Celebrate Recovery and I actually think it could use a mention of its own. I know its still a 12 step but it fills a specific gap for people who are Christians and want those specific ties. This is why I was drawn to it originally. I like how it says they dont use labels and other things also, and how it has a big meeting where the couple could go together and then split off in groups. I think it should be explained in a sticky. Allfor presented Craft and Smart. With all of the methods including alanon I went and talked to the counselor for advice based on my situation and facts.

I think you did this too didnt you Charley?
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:54 PM
  # 82 (permalink)  
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Exactly, Blue! I live in a strictly AA/Al Anon area. Everything I found was AA based, I was in Al Anon, it was a mess for me. The stickies just made more a mess in my head, because while I knew Al Anon was *not* the answer for me, I couldn't figure out what was.

Blue seems to be our unofficial spokesperson. Allfor has excellent knowledge and insight also, but she is here less. Blue trudges out into the F&F forum, despite sometimes being called out for her secular methods, and still keeps on going. I admire her greatly for that.

Even though we do not have any non-12 step meetings here and we do have a private non-12 step counselor, there are ways to access the information for free, like Blue said. I use the public library and internet a lot for information. This group on the secular forum has been invaluable for me. In fact, my non-12 step counselor recently told me these people are gold and I should never stop listening to them. (And then he said what was the most important thing ... "Even if this marriage doesn't work, (you) will be miles ahead for all of this work and will be so much happier in the long run". And that's why I do this. Just an aside.) I also have an EAP counselor that I have taught some non-12 step stuff to and she is helping us to both learn together.

Taken directly from the stickie:
The most powerful influence in helping families make these changes is Al-Anon/Naranon


I humbly disagree. Al Anon did not work for me. It messed with my head big time. Strangely, AA seems to work for H, along with some non-12 step thrown in. I also think he's doing more Rational Recovery than he realizes too. Great! His mind works differently than mine, and that's fine!
But that line right there made me feel so guilty before I knew about Craft, I felt like I was failing at Al Anon, and if I couldn't even get that right, no wonder my life was so messed up.
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
When I came here I was presented alanon. Hopeful presented Celebrate Recovery and I actually think it could use a mention of its own. I know its still a 12 step but it fills a specific gap for people who are Christians and want those specific ties. This is why I was drawn to it originally. I like how it says they dont use labels and other things also, and how it has a big meeting where the couple could go together and then split off in groups. I think it should be explained in a sticky. Allfor presented Craft and Smart. With all of the methods including alanon I went and talked to the counselor for advice based on my situation and facts.

I think you did this too didnt you Charley?
Yes, I took my information to our counselor and it was he who led me through a great deal of it. But it was also yours and Allfor's explanations and insight in the beginning that helped me to understand what I was looking for.

When I found our counselor, it was like an interview. We had gone through so many counselors at that point that we knew what we wanted and were prepared to keep looking. He told me he was surprised how much I already understood and we were able to start at a much further along place than what he usually does.
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Old 03-27-2015, 02:32 PM
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Yesterday I was saying how I was taught not to compare my situation with other people. And I said this because the rehab counselors told me initially. And the Beyond Addiction book says this too.

In counseling things are specific to the person and my exact situation and how I deal with things, my perspective as an individual. Like some people cant work through an affair but it doesnt mean my husband and I cant. The parts of craft that are about helping work the same way. Some people will learn skills and communication will improve even if someone is still drinking or drugging. But doesnt mean it will happen for my friend.

This is a question, and Im thinking could this be another "difference"?

Like Charley said, one AA slogan Ive heard is "it works if you work it" and "keep coming back" these ideas make me feel the burden of success is on the person, and imply the program works for all.

Do people think Craft says this too?

And because Craft supports the medical/science view of how family has significant influence and can be of "help" to the spouse THEN people feel it implies what they are used to in AA approaches? The program doesnt fail, we do? Therefore they feel guilt?

None of that is true. These programs dont promote these concepts. And these are also not "life" programs. Craft teaches skills and how to use them in your life. Smart teaches skills and how to apply them in your life. You are expected to stop using the programs at some point. Although Smart always says people can return any time, or if they need more support then use the groups continuously.

I hope what I posted makes sense. I am trying to use the thread to learn if we think differently on various things. It would explain a lot to me where I was confused before.
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Old 03-27-2015, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PinkCloudsCharley View Post
Yes, I took my information to our counselor and it was he who led me through a great deal of it. But it was also yours and Allfor's explanations and insight in the beginning that helped me to understand what I was looking for.

When I found our counselor, it was like an interview. We had gone through so many counselors at that point that we knew what we wanted and were prepared to keep looking. He told me he was surprised how much I already understood and we were able to start at a much further along place than what he usually does.
That's what I thought. Hahaha I know from our thread hes been "impressed" with what you know. Just like with mapping. He recommended it, and you had already learned some from the craft books. ( I used it to help me cope with Mr Blues anxiety last year). The mapping is an example of one of the behavioral therapies. It is something we do to identify our own emotions, reactions and how we respond to our spouse. This also can have a positive impact on them. It can diffuse situations and prevent conflict in our homes. It can decrease our stress and keep us all at an emotionally healthier place. And in your case the doctor suggested you both map your emotions, and together you collaborate. Did I say that right?
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Old 03-27-2015, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
...and promotes rock bottom for the addict.
No it doesn't. Again another example of taking things out of context and embellishing it.

Call it what you want, a bottom, a low point, a learnable moment. Never have I known of a substance abuser (or for that matter most people in general) making life altering changes when everything is going peachy. Usually, something is making them want to find a better way, be that external or internal.
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:05 PM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
I only mentioned what I did to Morning Glory because Craft/smart appears to be whats in question.
Again, absolutely wrong. It has nothing to do with the programs of CRAFT or SMART. It's in the way it's presented, and most times compared to fictitious information about 12-Step programs.

And, "mapping" started with the behavior of children with autism...which I guess goes well with CRAFT.
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:23 PM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cynical one View Post
Again, absolutely wrong. It has nothing to do with the programs of CRAFT or SMART. It's in the way it's presented, and most times compared to fictitious information about 12-Step programs.

And, "mapping" started with the behavior of children with autism...which I guess goes well with CRAFT.
I hope I'm reading this wrong ... are you insulting autistic people? or just people who use CRAFT?
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:27 PM
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It has nothing to do with the programs of CRAFT or SMART. It's in the way it's presented
This is what I see also Bluechair. I don't think anyone is against Craft or Smart, but it just can't seem to be presented without anti 12 step remarks along with it.

We used to have that problem here with our Rational Recovery members and they have worked that out finally.

History tells me that Craft will never have a place here until that changes. It took years for Rational Recovery to find an accepted place here and that's what it took.
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:31 PM
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I'd be happy if we could mention Craft/Smart without the anti-Craft statements. those are quite frequent, also, along with the fallacy that we just "Love our Loved Ones clean". We ALL know that doesn't happen.

And, I think it's important for people to know that 12 step doesn't work for everyone. It's important to know that not everything heard at those meetings are gospel, and it's ok if you think it's wrong. Or people question their own beliefs, like I started to. I didn't know it was ok to say, this doesn't work for me, because no one else was saying it.

it's like, when you have a baby and you have post partum, but everyone tells you should be happy, and you're not. Something is wrong, but no one is letting you say what it is, and they are all saying you should feel something else. Does that analogy make sense? It does in my head, lol, but that can be a lonely place in there.
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:31 PM
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And, "mapping" started with the behavior of children with autism...which I guess goes well with CRAFT.
???? How does this help with a solution?
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:46 PM
  # 92 (permalink)  
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Because from what I have read on the secular thread on one of the book review threads, CRAFT says to treat substance abusers like children or pets.

Please feel free to delete it though.
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
This is what I see also Bluechair. I don't think anyone is against Craft or Smart, but it just can't seem to be presented without anti 12 step remarks along with it.

We used to have that problem here with our Rational Recovery members and they have worked that out finally.

History tells me that Craft will never have a place here until that changes. It took years for Rational Recovery to find an accepted place here and that's what it took.
Just as an example:

what are anti 12 step remarks?

And what do anti non-12 step remarks look like?
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cynical one View Post
Because from what I have read on the secular thread on one of the book review threads, CRAFT says to treat substance abusers like children or pets.

Please feel free to delete it though.
And if you go look through her posts, she makes this comment on threads often.( Even if we are not posting on the thread). Some get caught some dont. This is not a misspoken comment or a questionable phrase. These are deliberate attempts to bash and demean other programs.

Why do you do this?
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:55 PM
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First of all a new program can't come in here and demand acceptance.
Life doesn't work that way. Change takes time to accept.

These forums were exclusively 12 Step for years. We allowed other program methods to be included. Our first experience with this was when Rational Recovery first came through here with terrible trolls and they tore the place up. We had to really work through resentments and work so hard to find tolerance after that and it was not an easy task.

Our Rational Recovery, Secular, and AA members here have done it.
You will need to solve this or members will go not programs.
I'm trying to help, but the change has to come from you.
If you can't do it steps will have to be taken to stop it. It can't continue this way.
That includes members from all programs.
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
And if you go look through her posts, she makes this comment on threads often.( Even if we are not posting on the thread). Some get caught some dont. This is not a misspoken comment or a questionable phrase. These are deliberate attempts to bash and demean other programs.

Why do you do this?
Glad you asked. Because this is what you do ALL the time. I did this intentionally so you could see what we see with your posts. Taking stuff out of context, embellishing it, and stating it as fact.

Wait, were you saying I do this all the time or the person that posted it on the book review thread does it all the time?
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Old 03-27-2015, 03:58 PM
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Also many of the stickies have been there for years long before other programs were included. I can see the bashing from both sides.
Both need to stop it.

If you are upset by something talk about it and be truthful without the passive aggression.
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Old 03-27-2015, 04:11 PM
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This is one of the threads when our secular addiction forum first started.
You won't find anything like this now. They were able to work it out.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...hiests-aa.html
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Old 03-27-2015, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
First of all a new program can't come in here and demand acceptance.
Life doesn't work that way. Change takes time to accept.
I kinda disagree. I think we should be open to and accepting of all and any program of recovery as long as it isn't harmful. Like I said, it's not the programs, at least not for me.
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Old 03-27-2015, 04:16 PM
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I would agree that there has been bashing from both sides, but Bluechair, just go back and look at how you responded to me a few posts ago. I pulled titles of articles posted by you and Allfor that were designed to be provocative. Authors write titles like these to get internet readers to click on them. I get that. But they are provocative.

You took my words out of context and tried to paint me as somehow against seeing happy families. Your post was bullying. And as another poster stated, it did a lot to discredit you regarding CRAFT.

Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
Does this upset you? You are against families coexisting in a home and being able to reduce conflict, arguments, improve the environment for themselves and their children?

We had one member report her daughter noticed improved communication between her mom and dad. So who reaps the benefits? Id say all parties involved. Are you against this?

When we listen better we gain benefits, when we communicate better we gain benefits, when we stay engaged we gain benefits - to ourselves.

The next book you mentioned, Get Your Loved One Sober, Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading and Threatening is also for us.

Do you advocate family members talk to their loved ones when they are drunk, nag, plead or threaten them? This usually creates more conflict and stress for us and our spouses.
I've seen this bullying tone over and over again in your posts. It's not at all compassionate, nor is it meant to bring about open communication. It is meant to shut other people and opinions that you don't like down.
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