Chino

Ditto. My husband and I spent somewhere close to $100K on our daughter, because insurance wouldn't cover any of it. We don't have cheap insurance either, as we're the biz owners. I put together a very comprehensive program for my daughter on my own. Some of it was very useful, some was a total waste. She eventually got clean on her own.

But I came here to these F&F forums for me. Each forum in this section of the board is about us, the family and friends. I still don't understand why even more time here -- in the forums devoted to F&F -- is about fixing an addicted loved one.

These F&F boards are for us and about us, not the addict. At least that's what the description says!

Chino

Because Craft sees a 12 step addiction doctor as what?

This is the kind of stuff that divides.

BlueChair

Craft would NEVER suggest a family member put together a treatment program for their daughter. She has to be in control of her own recovery and decide what works best for her. Instead we would say its ok for you to collaborate with her and talk through it IF she wants you to.

This is the secular family forum and I see no such heading. BESIDES Craft is a program for us, we learn skills and our own recovery techniques. We also focus on better communication with our spouses, which is one of my favorite parts. And we discuss negative consequences like other programs do but we add in positive incentives too. We are not responsible for our loved ones success or failure. You should read our book review maybe.

Statistically craft members report being happier, feeling healthier and more in control of their lives. Are you here to support people or just your own program preferences?

Great news about your daughter. I already mentioned a lot of people recover on their own. There is evidence to support this too. Congrats to her!

Morning Glory

Bluechair and Chino, I think you may have come up with the answer to solve the division we've been experiencing.

Friends and Family Forums
Open to all who love someone who is addicted to Alcohol, whether they have admitted a problem or not. Discuss coping tools, and learn basic recovery techniques for you, not the alcoholic.

Open to all who love someone who is addicted to drugs, whether they have admitted a problem or not. Discuss coping tools, and learn basic recovery techniques for you, not the addict.


The Secular forum does not have that description as you stated Bluechair.

I think following the descriptions of the forums would really help avoid the conflict.
The purpose and focus of the Friends and Family forums is not meant to help the addict/alcoholic. It is meant to help the friends and family members with recovery tools and coping methods.

The Secular forum and the new Family forum is open to both.

Does that sound fair to everyone?

allforcnm

what does this mean exactly MG?

Im assuming we can still share about CRAFT and SMART on the main family forums.. We don't discuss recovery techniques for our loved one to begin with so Im confused. We discuss our own communication technique, listening skills, how not to enabling and allowing natural consequences and also we discuss the use of positive incentives which can be nothing more than giving our husband a hug. we discuss self care like the other forums and on the secular family forum we usually discuss our own relationships and the details of how we handle things.

The alanon group often shares details about working their steps, how they interact with their loved ones, they discuss their loved ones treatment and how many meetings they should be going to, how they should be talking to their sponsor instead of you, how they need to have less ego and be more humble or its not true signs of recovery, double winners will come and explain what the A is thinking or should be thinking..

these things often do not agree with the secular view by the way.. Go read around and Im sure you will see this type of advice on the main family forums. Its really a lot of AA program being shared, not alanon at all.

one could argue alanon members need to understand AA, but then one could argue non 12 step members need to understand non 12 step approaches like NIDA so both should be freely shared on the main forums. Not just one method.

So who changes? or what changes?

when people come here asking what can they do.. its not really correct to say the point of view of only alanon.. nothing you can do. they should be presented options.

I would actually like to make stickies about craft and smart for the main family forums and these would be similar to the alanon sticky that are there.

I would also like to see some review of the current stickies because many are very specific to alanon approaches and could be moved to the 12 step forum to create less bias perhaps?

Perhaps you could explain in more detail.. its rather confusing. It often feels like 12 step programs want to crowd out other options on SR.


Im also confused because someone posted an article on the secular family forum and got a secular type of reply.. ,Dee a moderator came on to bash a member for bashing 12 steps when they weren't even mentioned, he then recanted.. but 12 steppers were allowed to come and attack her comments and to be honest I don't think any one of them cares to learn about craft at all which the mods and admins should have already been aware of due to prior posts.. so what is going on with this exactly?

allforcnm

I just wanted to rephrase this and apologize to Dee. He didn't bash a member and say she bashed the 12 step programs. He only commented about craft being poised against other programs. I would edit my post but don't have access.

Needabreak

I think the problem with your "stickies," AllforCNN, is that they tend to be focused on helping your loved one to overcome addiction.

A short scan of your posts come up with the following titles: "10 Effective Tips to Help Your Loved One Seek Treatment for a Substance" (as if that is some magic panacea), or "Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change: CRAFT for Families," or "How to Help Someone Feel Loved and Understood." Or "Get Your Loved One Sober."

These types of posts don't keep to the theme of "learn basic recovery techniques for you, not the addict," which I believe is the stated purpose of the two Friends and Family forums. And these types of posts generally trigger unpleasant conflict on the Friends and Family forums. They are not helpful to people who have already tried these things and are still faced with an active addict.

I like Morning Glory's proposal, and might suggest taking it a step further. Maybe the Secular Friends and Family Forum could be rebranded to be the "Forum to Learn Methods for Helping Your Addicted Loved One." With strict rules on both sides against bashing the other. Because this seems to be the root of the conflict here -- focus on helping ourselves, or focus on helping the addict.

I think people are smart enough to read up on addiction and codependence, and to decide where they fit in. Over time, we may see more success stories arise from the "Help Your Addicted Loved One" forum. People might choose to move from one forum to the other. If so, then it has stood out on its own merits, which would be a good thing.

Morning Glory

I'll be out for part of the day so keep the conversation civil.

Allforcnm, describing a program method and not mentioning the name of it is the same as saying the name. I felt the same as Dee when I read the remarks I quoted in my first post on the thread. I do not follow any program method and neither does Dee, but we both picked up on that. There is a lot of talking about my way in one breath and putting down your way in the next breath. I have seen this happen on both sides of the fence. There are a lot of passive-aggressive posts that don't mention names of programs and questions or remarks that bait the other side.

I don't have time right now to discuss the other suggestions. I will be back this afternoon.

BlueChair

The book titles are incomplete.

The first book is called Beyond Addiction How science and Kindness help people change, a guide for families.

The book does not discuss recovery techniques for our loved one or with the sole purpose of what we can do to help our loved one. (We dont even use the term addict).

Its about how we change ourselves. We are not able to change other people.

Fortunately the way we make changes also appears to have a positive effect on our relationships and our partners. Its a by product.

Does this upset you? You are against families coexisting in a home and being able to reduce conflict, arguments, improve the environment for themselves and their children?

We had one member report her daughter noticed improved communication between her mom and dad. So who reaps the benefits? Id say all parties involved. Are you against this?

When we listen better we gain benefits, when we communicate better we gain benefits, when we stay engaged we gain benefits - to ourselves.

The next book you mentioned, Get Your Loved One Sober, Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading and Threatening is also for us.

Do you advocate family members talk to their loved ones when they are drunk, nag, plead or threaten them? This usually creates more conflict and stress for us and our spouses.

This book is more detailed than the first at looking at specific interactions we share with our spouse and how to navigate them. Dont think Ive seen it discussed outside the secular family forum.

We dont even have stickies here.

BlueChair

Last year before the secular forum was created, the main forums said they were for discussing 12 step programs or something to this effect. I remember people using this tag line to tell me I could leave SR if I didnt like how they posted or the things they said to me.

Then the secular forum was created, and the existing 12 step forum was beefed up. I recall a thread saying something to the effect, nothing changes except now IF you only want to discuss 12 step ideas, programs and recovery please use the 12 step forum. IF you only want to discuss secular non 12 step approaches please use this forum.

The other forums are to be shared mutually. What I see is that no one moved to the 12 step forum and now people must be unhappy when we share posts with non 12 step ideas on the main forum? What would the ratio be? Its got to be fairly small so I question why its such an issue for most members.

I also agree there is a lot of AA built into the main family forums. Lots of discussion about the A and what they should be doing for their recovery, what they should be thinking, feeling as part of the recovery process. This would not qualify as discussing recovery techniques for the family member.

It still think its an issue of 12 step doesnt want to hear about other methods for family. Im sorry to say this, but its what I think. They want to be the only approach presented and are trying to find loopholes to say Craft and smart arent focused on the family member. But both programs have surveys or studies to show family members benefit from participating in either program.

Last night I actually stayed late at work to respond to your post and questions as best I could Morning Glory.

Chino

Somebody had to do it since she wasn't going the traditional 12 step route and I'm 100% positive I did the right thing. Of course she had to be in control of her own recovery! She's a strong willed young lady and was never malleable past the age of six lol

I'm pretty sure I've already answered that, when I indicated no program preference for my daughter or myself.

Now I'll ask the same question of you.

BlueChair

Im here to share what works for me, to share my experience with others when I see similarities, to keep learning and working on my own skills.

PinkCloudsCharley

At what point are we able to celebrate the fact that not only are some of our lives improving, that some people got sober in the process? I don't give a flying fig who uses what method. The most important thing is, people are getting help, families are getting healthy.

My husband is sober. We are working as a team and it's hard, but it's worth it FOR ME. and I'm going to celebrate that. Who cares what method he used! I like this one,sorry to those who don't.

PinkCloudsCharley

How do we request this thead be closed?

Anna

Morning Glory will decide if she wants to close the thread or not.

hopeful4

I have read all of the comments, and am going to add my own. I come to ALL of the F&F forums b/c I have an X who still affects me via my children who has issues w/both substance abuse and alcohol abuse. I have used both 12 step recovery in my own recovery via Celebrate Recovery, and I have used secular based through seeing a psychiatrist who is not 12 step based. It boils down to what works. I could not care less what the name is. What works for me may not work for you. What works for you may not work for me. I come here hoping to give and gain experience that I can apply to my life and may help someone else along the way.

I tried every single thing possible to try to help my XAH help himself. I took him to non 12 step doctors, he attended CR, he went to counseling and doctors. He went to rehab. Thing is, HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE SOBER, AND I COULD NOT AND CANNOT MAKE HIM. Did that make him cheat on me? Nope. Did that make him lie? Nope. That was HIS OWN CHOICE, NOT A DISEASE making him do so. He did those things both drunk and sober and now he, myself, and my children are paying the price through having divorced parents. It's a real blast parenting with an alcoholic, substance abuser.

BlueChair, I admire that your husband is recovering. It's wonderful that CRAFT works for you. I know you were open to listening in the beginning to various things and had to find what worked for you guys. That is wonderful.

What you are failing to mention, your husband had a HUGE consequence. He was going to lose his job. He is lucky enough that his employer hired a sober coach, who he initially fought not to see. He was forced to recover in many ways or lose his job. I don't think he chose to see the sober coach b/c it was good for him, but out of fear of the consequence.

So, there is a mix of things. There is a very fine line between encouragement and enabling. In all of the F&F forums that line gets crossed by most of us on a pretty regular basis. It's very very hard. And add children to the mix, the hurts become unbearable. I could handle the things that happened to me, but the way my X hurts my children is something you cannot understand until you are exposed to it. It was, and continues to be awful in that aspect.

The reason I am saying this is that we ALL need to remember, no matter what forum you are in, that we are here to support and encourage each other, not tear anyone down. It's easy to get caught up in a "program" and that is really not what all of this is about.

Thanks for letting me share.

FindingMe2

I am not sure why you are getting so frustrated, angry and defensive. We are simply having a discussion.

That said, if we can not discuss this with maturity, calmness and understanding, I am left wondering how well can we communicate with our addicted loved ones. Taking out the emotions was very difficult for me when I tried to be encouraging and supportive to my husband. The disappointments broke my heart.

Like you, there were many times I felt worthless because of something he said or just my overall situation. I don't use any program, only private therapy and SR and today I feel valued and valuable.

I am curious, what program does your DD use to help deal with her home environment? I don't ask to be flip. I ask with all sincerity. Is she mapping or being mapped? Does CRAFT have a program for the children?

FindingMe2

Is this an example of the effective communication you have been learning through CRAFT? Because you lose all credibility with this kind of response ESPECIALLY after the admin asked us all to keep it civil. Quite frankly, I think it is quite offensive and a demeaning reply that deserves an apology but that will up to the discretion of the mods.

BlueChair

I stumbled on SR while looking to read stories about people who had been addicted during the time my husband was hospitalized.

I did try to learn about the other programs and I was close to trying celebrate recovery. I did order some of the materials. The non 12 step fit better with what I was learning about addiction in my own sessions.

Ive never credited this stuff to helping my husband enter rehab. He went before I had even heard of it. Its not a recovery program for addiction. Its not for the substance abuser, its for the family member. My husband has been doing good I think because of lots of factors. I do think my support and that of our family has been critical in his case.

This program works for ME. I think it has helped calm me, react differently, look at my own behaviors and make changes, reinforced things Ive learned in counseling and family sessions. And its much cheaper! Its free!

Its about ME not him. My life is better. And because of this its helped me support him better from an emotional standpoint. Our doctors view us as a team, we are each participants. I DO NOT take any responsibility for his recovery because he has had to do the work. We cant change other people.

We can influence, collaborate,, support, love, and help in many ways but we cant make someone recover from an addiction. CRAFT clearly states family is not responsible for their spouses recovery. The doctors never said I was responsible. Science of addiction does not say we are responsible.

Its obvious a lot of people struggle with guilt and feelings of responsibility but I think its something we each have to work out on our own. I was taught not to compare my situation to other peoples because we are all faced with individual circumstances and what works for one person wont necessarily work for another.

cece1960

^^^^ This^^^^ was a tough lesson for me. I am embarrassed to admit that I was once one of those who had no problem assuming that something was wrong in the family to produce an addict. These days I try very hard to not compare.