character defects vs. shortcomings
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
Cupcake,
First of all...let me welcome you to SR and the Narcotics Addiction 12 Step Forum. This forum is basically a forum where we discuss issues related to Narcotics Anonymous and the 12 Steps of NA.
Apparently, you and I have a quite different understanding of the NA program. That's okay, but I am curious as to why your remarks are directed at others instead of speaking for yourself? And some of the stuff you're saying doesn't make sense.
Not true. All the steps are about MY personal recovery and step work is a personal endeavor. I work the steps so that I can get better...not for anyone else. Here's what NA says about step 8:
"Step eight is the test of our newfound humility. Our purpose is to achieve freedom from the guilt that we have carried." - Basic Text, page 36
"This step is doing the legwork to repair the wreckage of our lives...By writing our list, we can no longer deny that we caused harm." - Basic Text, Page 37
"The Main thing this step does for us is to help build awareness that, little by little, we are gaining new attitudes about ourselves and how we deal with other people." _ Basic Text, page 38
And step 9 tells us:
"We try to remember that when we make amends to the best of our ability, we are doing it for ourselves. Instead of feeling guilty and remorseful, we feel relieved about our past." - Basic Text, page 40
So...if doing steps 8 & 9 aren't for the person working them, please tell me who is it about?
Really? Do you have a dictionary? If not, you can always look up what these words mean online. Dictionary.com Also, your understanding of NA steps could be assisted by reading NA literature. Why don't you give it a try?
And also...it would be a good idea if you'd keep your sharing focused on your own experiences instead of pointing the finger or assuming what others have gone through.
First of all...let me welcome you to SR and the Narcotics Addiction 12 Step Forum. This forum is basically a forum where we discuss issues related to Narcotics Anonymous and the 12 Steps of NA.
Apparently, you and I have a quite different understanding of the NA program. That's okay, but I am curious as to why your remarks are directed at others instead of speaking for yourself? And some of the stuff you're saying doesn't make sense.
Step #8 annd #9 is not about you, it never was.
"Step eight is the test of our newfound humility. Our purpose is to achieve freedom from the guilt that we have carried." - Basic Text, page 36
"This step is doing the legwork to repair the wreckage of our lives...By writing our list, we can no longer deny that we caused harm." - Basic Text, Page 37
"The Main thing this step does for us is to help build awareness that, little by little, we are gaining new attitudes about ourselves and how we deal with other people." _ Basic Text, page 38
And step 9 tells us:
"We try to remember that when we make amends to the best of our ability, we are doing it for ourselves. Instead of feeling guilty and remorseful, we feel relieved about our past." - Basic Text, page 40
So...if doing steps 8 & 9 aren't for the person working them, please tell me who is it about?
Your shortcomings are the results of your defects. It's not the same.
And also...it would be a good idea if you'd keep your sharing focused on your own experiences instead of pointing the finger or assuming what others have gone through.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 10
Apparently I do...and then ???
Even the court system requires a person to make restitutions
for damages or harm done.
Even the credit card companies require you to make up all debts.
They're not going to roll over and wipe your slate clean just becuase
you're in NA. Even if you paid back your debts, you still have to
re-establish your credit. In other words trust. And they're not
going to hand you a gold card just because you make 2-3 payments.
#8 and #9 in nothing new or out of the ordinary that is required
of you to be a member of society. There's nothing dramatic about it.
I don't have dyslexia. I have dyslogia. They're not the same
Even the court system requires a person to make restitutions
for damages or harm done.
Even the credit card companies require you to make up all debts.
They're not going to roll over and wipe your slate clean just becuase
you're in NA. Even if you paid back your debts, you still have to
re-establish your credit. In other words trust. And they're not
going to hand you a gold card just because you make 2-3 payments.
#8 and #9 in nothing new or out of the ordinary that is required
of you to be a member of society. There's nothing dramatic about it.
I don't have dyslexia. I have dyslogia. They're not the same
Last edited by Cupcakes; 07-12-2008 at 02:50 AM.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Weren't we talking about shortcomings ???
OK????
If I want to re-join society, then I must make amends.
I think where you two are getting crossed is ( getting to hate this word) semantics:
True, the results of step 8 and 9 are not about me, as far as the physical results go( restitution). But they are about me when it comes to me being able to look the world in the eye, then absolutely right, these steps are all about me!!!!! Like Garry said ( 'scuse me, "G" Money):
So that I can get better, not for anyone else. Thought that was worth repeating.
Re-joining society is a key part of true emotional recovery. Addiction creates loneliness. Belonging again to society is a gage of our healing. This is not about being cattle and going with the crowd, we are talking about getting back to being productive members of society
Even the court system requires a person to make restitutions
for damages or harm done.
for damages or harm done.
If I want to re-join society, then I must make amends.
I think where you two are getting crossed is ( getting to hate this word) semantics:
True, the results of step 8 and 9 are not about me, as far as the physical results go( restitution). But they are about me when it comes to me being able to look the world in the eye, then absolutely right, these steps are all about me!!!!! Like Garry said ( 'scuse me, "G" Money):
All the steps are about MY personal recovery and step work is a personal endeavor. I work the steps so that I can get better...not for anyone else.
#8 and #9 in nothing new or out of the ordinary that is required
of you to be a member of society. There's nothing dramatic about it.
of you to be a member of society. There's nothing dramatic about it.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 10
well, when I was ready for my short coming to be removed.
I got a bunch of old bills in the mail that I've ignored for years.
They found out about it after I had money in the bank that I've
been saving for a sport car. I already the darn thing on my
driveway. It was totally screwie. I drove all over the county
as if I was making a dope run to all the different institutions
or outlets I owe money to after a couple of nights of thinking
about defects and shortcoming. Was i really doing the best
as I can ?
I had debt clearing remose becuase I gave up almost $10,000 in a day
and no more sport car. It finally hit me a month later.
I felt free and wieght lifted off my shoulders. While I tried
to ignored my debts, it was always lingering in the back of my mind.
Actaully my mother was getting sick and tired of bill collectors
calling her house and sending my bills to her home, stressing the
hell out her.
Can you identified were I my shortcoming or defects was ?
For the first two weeks , I thought god was punishing me
and my shortcoming was that I didn't have a sport car I wanted.
I got a bunch of old bills in the mail that I've ignored for years.
They found out about it after I had money in the bank that I've
been saving for a sport car. I already the darn thing on my
driveway. It was totally screwie. I drove all over the county
as if I was making a dope run to all the different institutions
or outlets I owe money to after a couple of nights of thinking
about defects and shortcoming. Was i really doing the best
as I can ?
I had debt clearing remose becuase I gave up almost $10,000 in a day
and no more sport car. It finally hit me a month later.
I felt free and wieght lifted off my shoulders. While I tried
to ignored my debts, it was always lingering in the back of my mind.
Actaully my mother was getting sick and tired of bill collectors
calling her house and sending my bills to her home, stressing the
hell out her.
Can you identified were I my shortcoming or defects was ?
For the first two weeks , I thought god was punishing me
and my shortcoming was that I didn't have a sport car I wanted.
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
Originally Posted by Cupcakes 
Apparently I do...and then ???
Even the court system requires a person to make restitutions
for damages or harm done.
Even the credit card companies require you to make up all debts.
They're not going to roll over and wipe your slate clean just becuase
you're in NA. Even if you paid back your debts, you still have to
re-establish your credit. In other words trust. And they're not
going to hand you a gold card just because you make 2-3 payments.
#8 and #9 in nothing new or out of the ordinary that is required
of you to be a member of society. There's nothing dramatic about it.
I don't have dyslexia. I have dyslogia. They're not the same
Even the court system requires a person to make restitutions
for damages or harm done.
Even the credit card companies require you to make up all debts.
They're not going to roll over and wipe your slate clean just becuase
you're in NA. Even if you paid back your debts, you still have to
re-establish your credit. In other words trust. And they're not
going to hand you a gold card just because you make 2-3 payments.
#8 and #9 in nothing new or out of the ordinary that is required
of you to be a member of society. There's nothing dramatic about it.
I don't have dyslexia. I have dyslogia. They're not the same
Where ya been buddy?
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
Originally Posted by Cupcakes
Can you identified were I my shortcoming or defects was ?
For the first two weeks , I thought god was punishing me
and my shortcoming was that I didn't have a sport car I wanted.
For the first two weeks , I thought god was punishing me
and my shortcoming was that I didn't have a sport car I wanted.
:ghug3
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Character defects vs Shortcomings. Short answer.
A "Character Defect" is something I have too much of. For example:PAGGLES. Pride, Anger, Greed, Gluttony, Lust , Envy, Sloth.
A shortcoming is somehing that is in short supply. Patience, Tolerance, Acceptance, Generosity.
Yes technically I believe the two can be one and the same thing but looking at them in this way helped me to get a better understanding of my own behaviour.
A "Character Defect" is something I have too much of. For example:PAGGLES. Pride, Anger, Greed, Gluttony, Lust , Envy, Sloth.
A shortcoming is somehing that is in short supply. Patience, Tolerance, Acceptance, Generosity.
Yes technically I believe the two can be one and the same thing but looking at them in this way helped me to get a better understanding of my own behaviour.
The truth shall set you free
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5,267
In my personal moral inventory, I wrote down all the characteristics that were connected with my addiction and me. All negative aspects of my character were exposed. These are the vital defects that I focus on: Resentments, anger, arrogance, guilt, self-pity, voracity, deceitfulness, egotism, narrow-mindedness, spite, jealousy, edginess, fear, lust, remorse, indignity, failures, disgust, vulgarity and pride..
I had learned from the Steps that my character defects were simply the consequence of my inability to uphold conscious contact with my Higher Power of my understanding. Now that I am clean and serene, I want to be unconstrained from the binding grips that once were destroying me, making my life totally unmanageable. I did what was necessary to start removing my character defects and shortcomings
The 4th step brings us awareness, and at later Steps we gain the aptitude, intellectual capacity and potency to carefully eliminate one day at a time these defects of personality. The 4th step is the starting point for a total renovation of character to begin in our journey to revitalization. Personally, I wanted my character defects detached right then and there; however, I also had learned tolerance and confidence in the our 12 Step Fellowship.
Ivan
I had learned from the Steps that my character defects were simply the consequence of my inability to uphold conscious contact with my Higher Power of my understanding. Now that I am clean and serene, I want to be unconstrained from the binding grips that once were destroying me, making my life totally unmanageable. I did what was necessary to start removing my character defects and shortcomings
The 4th step brings us awareness, and at later Steps we gain the aptitude, intellectual capacity and potency to carefully eliminate one day at a time these defects of personality. The 4th step is the starting point for a total renovation of character to begin in our journey to revitalization. Personally, I wanted my character defects detached right then and there; however, I also had learned tolerance and confidence in the our 12 Step Fellowship.
Ivan
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
The 4th step is the starting point for a total renovation of character to begin in our journey to revitalization.
A shortcoming is somehing that is in short supply. Patience, Tolerance, Acceptance, Generosity.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
A shortcoming is somehing that is in short supply. Patience, Tolerance, Acceptance, Generosity.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
A shortcoming is somehing that is in short supply. Patience, Tolerance, Acceptance, Generosity.
I ask my Higher power to remove my Impatience, Intolerance, Stubbornness and Selfishness.
LOL
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 10
Okay...personally,I hate making amends. Making amends suck ass.
By experince the suckiassness of making amends, I don't act out to make defects
to creat shortcoming in my life.
Why ? I was very confuse about how in the world my defects or shortcomings
would be removed. My sponsor told it was becuase I like my defects or are
comfortable with them. I get away with it..so I keep on doing it.
Just like I kept on getting high until the shiet hitted the fan.
It's still the same principle. How in world I'm i going to stop doing something
if it's still working (getting away with it)...what insentive would I have to stop
doing them ? Becuase I was standing on some moral high grounds or an angle ?
Give me a break...I'm an addict.
Why did you decided to stop getting high ?
Where you jumping for joy at that moment ? Or life sucked ass and the consiquences
were catching up with you ? It's not that complicated.
Yes, damn it , I can be a bad person, selffish, selfcenter SOB..stop the suger coating.
That's the second rated person inside of me...that small person inside of me.
The sooner I accept that and recognize it..the sooner I can better myself.
Instead of pretending I'm an angle wearing a halo and can do no wrong.
My shortcoming is not accepting this.
I'm also capiable of being as nice as Jusses Christ..that's the greater part of me.
Good load...did you think my mother was singing cumbaya to me when my bill collectors
were calling her house. She was freanken PO at me.
By experince the suckiassness of making amends, I don't act out to make defects
to creat shortcoming in my life.
Why ? I was very confuse about how in the world my defects or shortcomings
would be removed. My sponsor told it was becuase I like my defects or are
comfortable with them. I get away with it..so I keep on doing it.
Just like I kept on getting high until the shiet hitted the fan.
It's still the same principle. How in world I'm i going to stop doing something
if it's still working (getting away with it)...what insentive would I have to stop
doing them ? Becuase I was standing on some moral high grounds or an angle ?
Give me a break...I'm an addict.
Why did you decided to stop getting high ?
Where you jumping for joy at that moment ? Or life sucked ass and the consiquences
were catching up with you ? It's not that complicated.
Yes, damn it , I can be a bad person, selffish, selfcenter SOB..stop the suger coating.
That's the second rated person inside of me...that small person inside of me.
The sooner I accept that and recognize it..the sooner I can better myself.
Instead of pretending I'm an angle wearing a halo and can do no wrong.
My shortcoming is not accepting this.
I'm also capiable of being as nice as Jusses Christ..that's the greater part of me.
Good load...did you think my mother was singing cumbaya to me when my bill collectors
were calling her house. She was freanken PO at me.
Last edited by Cupcakes; 07-12-2008 at 07:04 PM.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 10
My mother was being as normal, healthy,and appropricate as you can get expressing her anger towards. Her being angery at me wasn't her shortcoming.
Being an addict as I am..course try to spin it at first.
But I stood there and took it like a man and listen to her ..She let it all hang out.lol
Relaseing her anger at me put blame where blame belongs.
So I went way in the hell out of my way to pay all my bills to make things right, which was something I should have been
doing to begin with anyway.
Being an addict as I am..course try to spin it at first.
But I stood there and took it like a man and listen to her ..She let it all hang out.lol
Relaseing her anger at me put blame where blame belongs.
So I went way in the hell out of my way to pay all my bills to make things right, which was something I should have been
doing to begin with anyway.
Last edited by Cupcakes; 07-12-2008 at 07:46 PM.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by Cupcakes
Why ? I was very confuse about how in the world my defects or shortcomings
would be removed
would be removed
I can still be an impatient, selfish, arrogant SOB. The difference however was that I learned to change my behaviour
I am still the same physiological person I was when I came into recovery but I am learning to make healthier choices about the way I handle situations.
We CAN choose to act with patience and tolerance when dealing with others and it gets better with practise.
Gee I hope this is not confusing
Lost-n-Found
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cairo
Posts: 923
For me, defects are removed sometimes only to return later when I was unaware. It does get better as I stay aware for longer and longer periods. It helps me when I ask my HP to remove them. I sometimes even plead. Just by me thinking of them and being so entirely ready to not act on them, then as Peter was saying, I choose not to play a certain defect. I believe that the essence of my HP is in me and that the disease lives there too. Which will tip the scale today is my choice. The difference today is my level of consciousness, thanks to this program.
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
"In the Seventh Step, humility means understanding our role in our own recovery, appreciating our strengths and limitations, and having faith in a Power greater than ourselves."* ~ IWHW, page 69
My recovery is about me - Just because I "humbly ask" doesn't eliminate my responsibility to do my part. The 7th step informs us that:
"We have the freedom to choose to act constructively or, when appropriate, do nothing at all."
I contend that "acting constructively" is a positive behavioral change as compared to acting destructively (like during active addiction).
My recovery is about me - Just because I "humbly ask" doesn't eliminate my responsibility to do my part. The 7th step informs us that:
"We have the freedom to choose to act constructively or, when appropriate, do nothing at all."
I contend that "acting constructively" is a positive behavioral change as compared to acting destructively (like during active addiction).
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 2,274
Wow, what a debate. If the people who wrote the 12 steps knew were would be picking our brains over the difference between a "defect of character" and a "shortcoming" they might have written them clearer. I think writers of the steps really did mean these things to mean basically the same thing, but they got a little careless with their words.
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