legna

Good day everyone. I have a question about honesty. While I don't have a direct problem with the honesty part of what I am about to present, I'm aware that this behavior keeps me from a closeness and intimacy with people that prevents me from connecting with others. In turn, it affects other desirable qualities such as humility and a sense of community and oneness that I do desire. Here's some examples:

My wife and I just came back from a wonderful vacation with my father. He let us borrow his car to go to a meeting and we stopped to get some pictures developed at a local Walgreens. He had a framed picture in the back seat of the car that I overheard him offering to a friend of his on the phone the next time he saw him. So I called Dad from Walgreens and asked him if he would like us, while we were at Walgreens dealing with the photo counter, to make a copy for him as well. Sounds benign enough right?

The problem is, I know that he didn't need a copy. My father might forget to take out the trash on trash day, or forget to do the dishes - but he never forgets pictures. He lives for them. If he wanted a copy for himself, he would have made a copy before he offered the original. As silly and inconsequential as it may sound, I know this about him and would have been willing to bet my life on it. So I called him and asked a question to which I already knew the answer to. Why? Because I knew that he would feel loved and important to me by my doing so.

I tell my father that I love him every day, but it is no substitute for showing him. By calling and asking him if I could do this for him, it showed him, in a way that he could understand that I was thinking of him, valued him and loved him. And yet, I'm manipulating him. Sure, I love my father and can forgive myself for the implied white lie (that I didn't know the answer to the question I was asking him), but I'm having difficulty reconciling the idea that I am 'playing' people to communicate. Dad is an example, but I do this with everyone except my wife. Other hypothetical examples might be:

Joan is a bit difficult of a personality to deal with but I nevertheless say, "Joan, it is so good to see you!" which means, "You have value and I want you to know that."

"Peter, I stopped in to say 'hi' because I missed you." means, "I was thinking about you and thought that you might need someone to show you that they care about you." Despite the fact that I don't think I've ever missed someone besides my wife, father or daughter. Nevertheless, it's said in a way that he can understand it.

While my intentions might be good, I will never be able to have the type of relationship with Joan or Peter that I choose to have with people I like to associate with because I am not really being honest with them in my daily dealings with them. The relationships are draining as a result. Any thoughts?

RobbyRobot

Artistic license comes to mind. We all have the inherent right of free expression. How we present to others when we want to convey our care and concern is ours to choose. I'm not sure justice is served by taking apart our personalities in the name of being honest.

I don't see any problem as such. I do see a guy being very careful and insightful of the well-being of others. Awesome.

Tommyh

I don`t see much of a problem.You are taking the right action and one day your feeling may change.I see a lot of considerateness instead of inconsiderateness

awuh1

I see a problem with this. Let’s take the example with your father. Your father might know you better than you think. He might know that you know he would have made a copy of that picture. By asking him, you could be reveling yourself as less than completely honest with him. How is this going to make him feel? Is it going to cause him to doubt your sincerity about other things? Is that fair to him? I think you could sincerely show your concern for him by calling and asking if there is anything you can pick up for him on the way back to his place. No potential pitfalls in that.

Oh ya. And all that stuff you mentioned in the first paragraph of your post as well.

RobbyRobot

If my motives are honest and entrenched in my sincerity of a loving purpose in my love for others, then how those others accept me is also freely allowed to be whatever it is without consequence for me.

At the end of the day, there is no wrongness in my hope that my expectations of myself are best kept to myself. In the case that someone I love has some insight into my internal workings that I am unaware of them having respective to themselves is not an indication that a problem with honesty has been created for either party.

For me anyways.

Boleo

There have been many movies, books and TV shows about people who can not tell a lie no matter how small. The moral of these stories is - it usually does more harm than good to be blatantly truthful.

How should a husband answer his wife's question:

"Do I look fat in this dress?

KyrieEleison

Examine your motives.

Do you think they need for you to orchestrate their lives?

Are you playing God?

Is your motive by saying or doing nice things, to be liked?

What is the payoff .... for you?

If I have low self esteem, I need to be liked, so I say or do nice things, so you will like me, so you will think highly of me.

I can say it is for the greater good, that it is to make them feel good, as well as myself, but again, why the need to be the conductor.

I know we try to do things to make others feel better, being polite and all...but if it is fake...or a lie...what good is it...it's not honest.

I would just let go of the idea that you need to be anything other than honest and real.

legna

*nods* This is what I am doing here. Just doing it out loud for help.

The obvious answer is 'no' but if I dig a little I'm left with questions. I can't imagine a healthy person declaring that others need them to orchestrate their life but on the other hand, I can't imagine a healthy person having problems with the line: "Everyone needs help sometimes and sometimes they don't realize it." I'm not sure how germane that is to this particular question but anywho... I think the key is generally to wait for them to ask for help.

Possibly. Honestly, I don't know but it does have the flavor of it doesn't it? That's what's got me questioning this as much as anything. Again, my other reason is that it does prevent me from having intimate relationships based on equality.

No, definitively.

For dad, it is an opportunity to communicate to him, in an action, that he is loved and valued. Joan is (for example) a frequent relapse who I see at meetings. Peter is a newcomer to the program.

Dad is insecure after a thirty-three year marriage to my alcoholic step-mom. He is old now and will not last long. He has never gotten into recovery and shall not in the months he has left. I would like to make him as comfortable and happy for the time he has left. Moments when the fear and constant insecurity is pushed back allows for more happy moments. But I'm still conducting.

As a constant relapse with a difficult personality, Joan gets ignored at meetings often. I want to give her a reason to believe that she is welcome. Peter is a newcomer who is struggling with loneliness. I'm sending a message that he has friends in AA. But again (and again) I'm conducting.

Right. On the other hand, dad is loved and valued. Joan is welcome and Peter does have friends at AA even if he hasn't met them yet. I may be being fake, but I'm representing a very real truth. I am not convincing myself that I am doing it for different reasons than I am...but yes, it is misrepresenting myself.

*nods* I really appreciate your input.

muvinon

Well, I'll be the oddball. I think offering to do something you know the other person doesn't want you to do IS manipulative.

I've been on receiving end of that, and I feel annoyed more than cared for. It's more of a game than a legitimate effort to do something thoughtful, and I spot that "let me get brownie points and not really do anything."

Small annoyance, but I lived with someone like that. I got tired of the phoniness.

Just be real. This is an inside job. I personally can always find something both honest and thoughtful to say/do. A little effort to do so has improved relationships for me.

Taking5

No where in AA does it say to be honest on all our affairs. It says to practice the AA principles in all our affairs. This can include not being totally honest at times. such as during our 9th step amends, we don't come clean if it will hurt others.

paul99

At the risk of sounding simplistic, couldn't you just call your dad and say "Hey Dad, I was just thinking of you and wanted to call you and say that I love you. I hope you have a great day" and leave it at that?

Wouldn't that eliminate all the noise?

As for Peter, etc. I don't see anything wrong with saying to someone that they've been missed. It doesn't have to have the gravitas of missing your wife or kids, but yeah, sometimes it's nice to see someone, and just leave it at that.

Just a thought

mfanch

Are we to love people the way we want to love or the way they want to be loved?

I think the latter is the way to go. I like what paul99 said about it.

skg

We are to love our neighbors AS He loves us. Not that ambiguous, really. As an alcoholic, I loved me mostly, and despised anyone who didn't feel the same. Deep down, as The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous pointed out, I have a defective thinker. And the only way that I've found to arrest that mindset of self-indulgence, self-pity, selfishness, defeat, depravity, and malice (not to mention the ever-present mind-reading) was to have a spiritual awakening--and then make an effort each to practice a spiritual life.

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of you mind that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. (rom 12:2 NKJV)

You mean my mind can be transformed? Learning to live in love rather than fear's been a full-time job for me, a PeeplePleezer, because that's requiring some spinal continuity. I will over-think a ball-bearing given the right seed of contempt, so I need ALL that love has to guide me. I learned that in AA.

peaceness

legna

While we are on the subject, how about this:

I book all of my fathers travel online for him. He doesn't fly that often, usually twice a year. I look for the best travel deal I can, which is usually about $199, pay $100 out of pocket and tell him that I found him a ticket for $99. There are few things that dad, being a survivor of the Great Depression, likes better than saving money or finding a bargain and so he is always thrilled at the price he receives.

Again, definitely orchestrating, perhaps playing God, definitely putting a smile on his face. How does this affect my relationship with dad? That's the question I'm really seeking and looking for the answers to. By doing something that requires secrecy between us, does that take away from the potential for added intimacy? Do I put a wedge between myself and others this way?

MsJax

I don't know legna, I don't attend AA. I like this thread tho & I think this is about the sweetest thing I've read all day. I think what you're doing for your father is wonderful

fini

legna,

something hurts in me while reading this thread, both your questions and some of the answers.
what hurts, i think, is the dissonance between the intent of your message and how you choose to send that intent.
and isn't that what you're speaking to?
and it hurts, i think, because i do some of the same. and sometimes, others do it to me.
hm..."do it to me"...yes, that's how it feels when i intuit that the intent and delivery don't mesh. when i know B, who i've met three times at a meeting wants me to know i'm valued but what he says is that he missed me. when i don't believe he missed me and a simple "good to see you, how have you been" would give me the same message without me doubting it and him saying what's not really so.
yes, i experience the barrier to intimacy as you describe it. from both "sides".

see...i wouldn't call it manipulative, because you're not trying to get people to believe something that's not true, but i see it as disrespectful.
disrespectful because it doesn't...well, somehow it doesn't "give" the other person your confidence in their ability to be mature enough to be okay with the truth. to be okay with "just thinking of you and stopped by, Peter"...adding the "missing"... which is untrue creates the distance you don't want. and if Peter believes you missed him when you didn't, it sets up a whole different relationship from where you're both at.

okay, i'm rambling and not sticking to the point.
the point is that you are aware it stops you from having (or possibly developing) relationships in a way that you want. so you, in a way, put up this barrier between you and others that you say you don't want.
or, in other cases, it leaves you drained.
these alone might be good reasons for a change.

[COLOR="black"]By doing something that requires secrecy between us, does that take away from the potential for added intimacy? Do I put a wedge between myself and others this way?[/COLOR]

yes. and that's why something in me hurts when i read the thread.
because it's like ....letting someone win at a game.
that's where the disrespect is., even thought the intent is "nice".

for myself, when i notice i put up barriers, even or maybe esp. the polite, thoughtful ones, i go to fear. am i afraid of being without the barrier, the little tiny sounds-so-much-kinder-if-i-say-i-missed-you extra addition?
sorry if this was a specifically 12-step question; it seemed a very general one and okay to give thoughts.

Tommyh

I would say,don`t worry about it,just keep doing good for those around you

Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry, remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others.

step 11,first edition big book

legna

Exactly.

I agree and I think that's a much better way to put it.

While I have been guilty of doing exactly what you described, I have also done it quite often the way that you are suggesting as well - and frankly, it doesn't feel any better to me. For instance, "Just thinking of you and stopped by Peter..." implies that I missed him or at the very least, that I like him and want to sit next to him in meetings, make small talk, perhaps hang out - and none of that is true so it still sets up a whole different relationship from were I'm at anyway.

I have used the word 'drained' so many times to describe these interactions. Sometimes after a busy day I'll describe how I'm feeling as 'wanting to sit in a closet and detox from my interactions for a couple of hours.'

Do you think it's 'wrong' to allow my three year old grandchild to win a game? What parent hasn't? It's a real question because that's the ticket right there. I don't necessarily think so - I think it depends on my motivations. If I sense that he is learning and improving and yet on the verge of quitting because he is getting frustrated losing repeatedly, I might let him win as a form of encouragement to not quit.

If you think that under such circumstances that this is okay, what's the cut off? Is it an age thing? A maturity thing? Because I don't believe that Peter is mature enough. If we accept the disease model or even the ideas of many doctors who don't accept the disease model of alcoholism, we believe that we stop growing emotionally about the time we start drinking or drugging. In that case, Peter is thirteen years old.

Absolutely okay - in fact, you nailed many things in your post and I'm very grateful you decided to go ahead and share. The only thing that is different is that I don't necessarily find that the word 'missing' in my example is the trouble spot. Ultimately, while I truly hope that Peter finds recovery, I don't personally care if I ever see him again.

NoelleR

Wow....where's my head been at lately; I thought I'd already posted in this thread.........ah well.....

1) "...No where in AA does it say to be honest on all our affairs. It says to practice the AA principles in all our affairs..."

2) "...This can include not being totally honest at times. such as during our 9th step amends, we don't come clean if it will hurt others..."

1) Correct and incorrect (or incorrect and correct, as the case may be). Yes, it is suggested that we practice these principles in all our affairs, and one of these principles is HONESTY. Therefore, it is suggested that we practice honesty in all our affairs. Now, it's just up to each individual to define 'honesty' for his/her self.

2) This can be a pretty tricky one. Yes, we don't want to hurt others, but usually that refers to third parties. We may admit infidelities to our spouses (depending on our motives---not to hurt the spouse but to clean up our side of the street), but we don't give a list of the persons with whom we cheated.

I always loved my sponsor's take on honesty/rigorous honesty. I need to be as honest as it takes to keep me from picking up the next drink. Did I tell my mother all the things I did while drinking, or all the drugs I did (and/or how)..........? Of course not; she didn't need to know, but I could use general statements to convey the truth (like our stories---describe in a general way).

Of course, this is all just my take on all this, but it's kept me sober for a few 24's..................

(o:
NoelleR

NYCDoglvr

My life changed dramatically when I learned to let go of expectations. Close relationships improved dramatically and I became a much happier person. I recommend accepting your father as he is now. It's about the peace of acceptance.