AA and religion
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 51
AA and religion
I'm Bob, and I'm an alcoholic. Earlier in my life, I spent 15-20 years drinking very heavily. I have no doubt that my life was spinning out of control, and that alcohol was the primary reason. But somehow I managed, over a period of years, to pull myself back together. In recent years, my drinking has been moderate, punctuated by weeks and even months of complete abstinence. But as I've become aware of the condition I was once in, and the reasons for it, I developed a strong desire to stop drinking altogether. I told my physician about this, and he encouraged me to join AA, whose only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking. I certainly meet that criterion.
At the first meeting I attended, I was a bit put off by all the religious language. After a few years, I went to the same group again, with the same result. But recently I found a smaller meeting, closer to home, to which I've been going each week, including last night. The group is so small and informal that it's impossible not to share, which has led me gradually to see that, despite my years of relative moderation, I have much in common with these people. For even if I've managed to bring my outward behavior under control, I'm still an alcoholic with an addictive personality, and what I really want is peace of mind and spirit. So I have a sponsor now, and I've begun thinking seriously about the twelve steps.
The topic of last night's meeting was one's Higher Power, however, and as we went around the table, I began to feel like the proverbial fifth wheel. People spoke not only of surrendering the will, but of doing so to a God whom they obviously conceived anthropomorphically, and of their lives being led or guided by this deity down to very small details. I realize that the twelve steps refer to a God "as we understand Him," and I mentioned this when it was my turn to share. But I felt somewhat as I'd felt at my first introduction to AA -- i.e., that a bit more is assumed by many of those present in AA meetings.
I've told my sponsor that I'd like to meet with him to talk about this, and we'll do so soon. But I thought I'd share this here as well, not because I think this is a fault of AA in itself, but because I think it's important for those in AA to recognize and respect the diversity of religious orientations that people bring with them to its meetings. I understand the language of the twelve steps, not literally, but metaphorically. In fact, this is the only way I can make sense of them, and make them relevant to my life.
My conception of God is Paul Tillich's -- i.e., to me, the word "God" refers to those things that concern us ultimately. I know that I have an ultimate concern, something without which, at the end of the day, my life makes no sense whatsoever (although I'd be hard-pressed to explain what this is to anyone else). In this sense, I believe in God, but it's not an anthropomorphic god, nor is it even a theistic conception of god.
I also know that addictive thoughts and behaviors estrange me from this "God," and that they are, in this sense, "idolatrous." They make my life shallow, less meaningful, sucking up all the oxygen and preventing me from living in the full sense of the word. And like the ancient Stoics, I know that dealing with these things involves a kind of "surrender" -- i.e., acknowledging to myself and others that, while there are some things I can control, there are many others that I cannot, and that addiction is a way of being dishonest with myself about this basic, undeniable fact.
In any case, I thought I'd say this here, because it's very difficult to explain in the context of what I heard last night, or what I read in the twelve steps. At the very least, it requires huge metaphorical leaps, and this is difficult for someone so new to AA as I am.
Thanks for listening.
At the first meeting I attended, I was a bit put off by all the religious language. After a few years, I went to the same group again, with the same result. But recently I found a smaller meeting, closer to home, to which I've been going each week, including last night. The group is so small and informal that it's impossible not to share, which has led me gradually to see that, despite my years of relative moderation, I have much in common with these people. For even if I've managed to bring my outward behavior under control, I'm still an alcoholic with an addictive personality, and what I really want is peace of mind and spirit. So I have a sponsor now, and I've begun thinking seriously about the twelve steps.
The topic of last night's meeting was one's Higher Power, however, and as we went around the table, I began to feel like the proverbial fifth wheel. People spoke not only of surrendering the will, but of doing so to a God whom they obviously conceived anthropomorphically, and of their lives being led or guided by this deity down to very small details. I realize that the twelve steps refer to a God "as we understand Him," and I mentioned this when it was my turn to share. But I felt somewhat as I'd felt at my first introduction to AA -- i.e., that a bit more is assumed by many of those present in AA meetings.
I've told my sponsor that I'd like to meet with him to talk about this, and we'll do so soon. But I thought I'd share this here as well, not because I think this is a fault of AA in itself, but because I think it's important for those in AA to recognize and respect the diversity of religious orientations that people bring with them to its meetings. I understand the language of the twelve steps, not literally, but metaphorically. In fact, this is the only way I can make sense of them, and make them relevant to my life.
My conception of God is Paul Tillich's -- i.e., to me, the word "God" refers to those things that concern us ultimately. I know that I have an ultimate concern, something without which, at the end of the day, my life makes no sense whatsoever (although I'd be hard-pressed to explain what this is to anyone else). In this sense, I believe in God, but it's not an anthropomorphic god, nor is it even a theistic conception of god.
I also know that addictive thoughts and behaviors estrange me from this "God," and that they are, in this sense, "idolatrous." They make my life shallow, less meaningful, sucking up all the oxygen and preventing me from living in the full sense of the word. And like the ancient Stoics, I know that dealing with these things involves a kind of "surrender" -- i.e., acknowledging to myself and others that, while there are some things I can control, there are many others that I cannot, and that addiction is a way of being dishonest with myself about this basic, undeniable fact.
In any case, I thought I'd say this here, because it's very difficult to explain in the context of what I heard last night, or what I read in the twelve steps. At the very least, it requires huge metaphorical leaps, and this is difficult for someone so new to AA as I am.
Thanks for listening.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Hi Bob,
Thank you very much for sharing.
In my earlier attempts to sober up with the help of AA , the apparent religiosity of the language in the book as well as the twelve steps, coupled with my own true lack of desire for sobriety, made for a great big exercise in futility!
I pretty much gave up on any possibility of faith in an intercessionary god of any kind back in my early teens. And for some reason, that still holds true for me today.
I can't wrap my mind around the concept of a benevolent entity, floating somewhere in my life, or in the universe. I have deep convictions of my own spirituality and purpose, but I can't tie them in to any accepted form of god, if that makes sense. I'm a failed christian, according to the doctrines and dogma of my baptismal faith (catholic).
Ultimately though, it was an act of faith that allowed me to start recovery from addiction, or alcoholism if you prefer, because I am an addict, and alcohol, and it's abuse, is the substance that finally brought me to a desperate enough place to accept the twelve steps as a program of recovery.
I became desperate enough to believe the men and women I heard that Tuesday night in May/03. I was told that a higher power was to be of my understanding, and mine only. And so far, I hang on to that belief with great gratitude.
I believe I have the rest of my life to fine tune a relationship with with my sober self. Included in that is a daily examination of my spirituality, and how I relate it to the twelve steps. That's what seems to be working for me at the moment. If there is one thing I worship, in the classic sense of the word, it is truly this day, this minute, that I am experiencing soberly. The gift of reading your eloquent post, and the opportunity to respond to it, is one of the gifts of my sobriety today.
Thank you very much for sharing.
In my earlier attempts to sober up with the help of AA , the apparent religiosity of the language in the book as well as the twelve steps, coupled with my own true lack of desire for sobriety, made for a great big exercise in futility!
I pretty much gave up on any possibility of faith in an intercessionary god of any kind back in my early teens. And for some reason, that still holds true for me today.
I can't wrap my mind around the concept of a benevolent entity, floating somewhere in my life, or in the universe. I have deep convictions of my own spirituality and purpose, but I can't tie them in to any accepted form of god, if that makes sense. I'm a failed christian, according to the doctrines and dogma of my baptismal faith (catholic).
Ultimately though, it was an act of faith that allowed me to start recovery from addiction, or alcoholism if you prefer, because I am an addict, and alcohol, and it's abuse, is the substance that finally brought me to a desperate enough place to accept the twelve steps as a program of recovery.
I became desperate enough to believe the men and women I heard that Tuesday night in May/03. I was told that a higher power was to be of my understanding, and mine only. And so far, I hang on to that belief with great gratitude.
I believe I have the rest of my life to fine tune a relationship with with my sober self. Included in that is a daily examination of my spirituality, and how I relate it to the twelve steps. That's what seems to be working for me at the moment. If there is one thing I worship, in the classic sense of the word, it is truly this day, this minute, that I am experiencing soberly. The gift of reading your eloquent post, and the opportunity to respond to it, is one of the gifts of my sobriety today.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 14
I had a hard time with the 'God part' of the program, and still do. I'm always trying to talk myself into believing that I'm an atheist. I'm probably more like a wannabe atheist though. I do believe the old soldiers who say 'there are no atheists in foxholes' and God knows, I've been in my fair share of figurative 'fox holes'.
My real problem is that I'm analytical and negative (and with a rebellious streak to boot) and so I'm constantly coming up with a negative analysis about why there isn't a god instead of simply praying because it works - because it somehow gives me peace of mind.
For me, I had to forget everything I thought I knew (think I know) about God and religion and simply pray to 'whatever was listening' and pray to Him/Her/It/They fairly regularly. For lack of a better term, I call this divine force 'God'. I can't describe how it works or why it works nor do I need to - I just need to know that it does work. When I try to figure out the 'how' and 'why' of this 'grand architect'...this 'divine force', I always end up being an atheist again and have to start over with prayer once more. That's my 'negative analysis' at work.
You know that saying 'fake it till you make it'? That probably describes my whole recovery, especially the 'God part'.
Psychologically, it probably has something to do with the physical act of prayer being the physical act of surrender and faith, two things I need if I'm to stay both clean and (relatively) sane.
And 'hi!' - since it's my first post and all...
My real problem is that I'm analytical and negative (and with a rebellious streak to boot) and so I'm constantly coming up with a negative analysis about why there isn't a god instead of simply praying because it works - because it somehow gives me peace of mind.
For me, I had to forget everything I thought I knew (think I know) about God and religion and simply pray to 'whatever was listening' and pray to Him/Her/It/They fairly regularly. For lack of a better term, I call this divine force 'God'. I can't describe how it works or why it works nor do I need to - I just need to know that it does work. When I try to figure out the 'how' and 'why' of this 'grand architect'...this 'divine force', I always end up being an atheist again and have to start over with prayer once more. That's my 'negative analysis' at work.
You know that saying 'fake it till you make it'? That probably describes my whole recovery, especially the 'God part'.
Psychologically, it probably has something to do with the physical act of prayer being the physical act of surrender and faith, two things I need if I'm to stay both clean and (relatively) sane.
And 'hi!' - since it's my first post and all...
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Yeah... Kind of like atheist lite, as a friend of mine calls us.
I always used to say I was an atheist except when I was in the back of cop cars, I found myself praying. Or before court...
Hi and welcome Guilty Spark.
I'm really glad I found this site - I think I really need it.
How about I call you Spark for short!
doing the inside job
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: planet happy
Posts: 542
I just keep it simple.
Obviously whatever i was doing before wasn't working.
My self well run riot didn't get me anywhere.
Like a dog tide to a rope to a pole, chasing it's own tail,
going in circles, eventally choking itself.
Sick and tired of sick and tired i was.
Miserable and just wanted life to get better.
Never really thought of giving up drugs or alcohol.
Just thought AA was going to teach me how to drink like a gentleman.
I never sweat the small stuff before.
bud wieser, jack daniels, jonhny walker, jim beam, jose crevoz.
I gave those dudes control over my life and never question it.
wasn't much into religion...it's all polotics to me.
when it was time to work the third step...
peaple told me to don't drink no matter what.
i kept it simple
if i had a chioce...after all i was told i had a choice, now.
I choose something that would love me unconditionally no matter what.
and it would never fail me..like people, places, and things in my life.
Pull it out of my arss, you can say.
I use to keep a smilie happy ball on my dresser...that was my god for a while.
anything that wasn't me as a god or higher power.
I didn't know if the crap was going to work, but i kep an open mind.
mostly...just to see if all these crazy people was bull sheit'in me.lol
I was only 23 at that time.
I was too wacked out to even notice the steps or traditions.
I threw the big book in my trunk.
The only thing that kept me coming back was a nice old man
that didn't tell me to do anything. He told me if i need a place
to be or rest, to just go there.
He kept the room open for most of the day other
than just the meetings.
Obviously whatever i was doing before wasn't working.
My self well run riot didn't get me anywhere.
Like a dog tide to a rope to a pole, chasing it's own tail,
going in circles, eventally choking itself.
Sick and tired of sick and tired i was.
Miserable and just wanted life to get better.
Never really thought of giving up drugs or alcohol.
Just thought AA was going to teach me how to drink like a gentleman.
I never sweat the small stuff before.
bud wieser, jack daniels, jonhny walker, jim beam, jose crevoz.
I gave those dudes control over my life and never question it.
wasn't much into religion...it's all polotics to me.
when it was time to work the third step...
peaple told me to don't drink no matter what.
i kept it simple
if i had a chioce...after all i was told i had a choice, now.
I choose something that would love me unconditionally no matter what.
and it would never fail me..like people, places, and things in my life.
Pull it out of my arss, you can say.
I use to keep a smilie happy ball on my dresser...that was my god for a while.
anything that wasn't me as a god or higher power.
I didn't know if the crap was going to work, but i kep an open mind.
mostly...just to see if all these crazy people was bull sheit'in me.lol
I was only 23 at that time.
I was too wacked out to even notice the steps or traditions.
I threw the big book in my trunk.
The only thing that kept me coming back was a nice old man
that didn't tell me to do anything. He told me if i need a place
to be or rest, to just go there.
He kept the room open for most of the day other
than just the meetings.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 51
thanks...
Thanks to you all for your posts. I'm going to continue going to meetings, share, talk with my sponsor, work on the steps, etc. As I was reading your responses, it occurred to me that I have a tendency to analyze things, to find a rational explanation and justification for everything I do. But a part of recovery is just DOING stuff, without necessarily completely understanding the reasons for things, and letting the program work. So much of recovery, as well as the problems we're trying to recover from, are unconscious and irrational. Doesn't pay to think too much, too early, in the process.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: N.Y. N.Y
Posts: 101
Hi Stoic,
The 12 steps of AA are a suggested tool for recovery. They aren't for everyone.
They happen to work for me. AA is concentrating on the spiritual vs religion.
AA welcomes atheist, agnostics abd all different views on religion.
I have also shared at AA meetings where I felt my point of view didn't coincide with the rest of the members at the table.
Thats Ok though because this is my recovery, no one elses. Views will vary and we all have the same thing in common, the desire to stop drinking.
I stay away from the politics of AA, but, I believe in the 12 steps.
How we interpret these steps will vary. I know I am on the right track just by the fact that I have no desire to drink again and I want to improve my life.
Lets keep it simple!
The 12 steps of AA are a suggested tool for recovery. They aren't for everyone.
They happen to work for me. AA is concentrating on the spiritual vs religion.
AA welcomes atheist, agnostics abd all different views on religion.
I have also shared at AA meetings where I felt my point of view didn't coincide with the rest of the members at the table.
Thats Ok though because this is my recovery, no one elses. Views will vary and we all have the same thing in common, the desire to stop drinking.
I stay away from the politics of AA, but, I believe in the 12 steps.
How we interpret these steps will vary. I know I am on the right track just by the fact that I have no desire to drink again and I want to improve my life.
Lets keep it simple!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Stoic
Thanks to you all for your posts. I'm going to continue going to meetings, share, talk with my sponsor, work on the steps, etc. As I was reading your responses, it occurred to me that I have a tendency to analyze things, to find a rational explanation and justification for everything I do. But a part of recovery is just DOING stuff, without necessarily completely understanding the reasons for things, and letting the program work. So much of recovery, as well as the problems we're trying to recover from, are unconscious and irrational. Doesn't pay to think too much, too early, in the process.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
It's like one of the sayings I've heard around the meetings: I've never seen anyone too dumb to understand the program but I've seen alot of people too smart to understand it.
Hello! Is this seat taken??
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A Denver far far away...
Posts: 92
Like Tom M was getting to – AA has no room for religion in it’s rooms. Talk to any Central Office or WSO rep and they’ll tell you – it’s a spiritual program – not a religious one.
There’s nothing quicker in turning a meeting over to a debate than discuss one’s METHOD OF SPIRITUALITY. What works for one – offends another. Thus – anonymity and equality are the guiding principals.
A gentleman and I both attend meetings regularly at this club we go to – we’re both homegroup members. When we both speak, we don’t mention our faiths. Most people know he’s a priest, and I’m Jewish. But that’s not mentioned in the meetings. What each of us are sharing are our experiences in reaching this ‘higher power’ to help us stay away from the drink one more day, to keep our insanity at bay, as that’s the real problem – not the drinking one.
Something that’s usually missed and something I point out to people I work with is what Bill W mentions in the BB (Bill’s Story – pg 11 – 3rd ed) – “For myself, I adopted those parts which seemed convenient and not too difficult, the rest I discarded”
Those ‘discarded’ pieces will manifest as time goes on. But in the beginning, I’m just trying to hold onto for dear life. LATER, when the cravings have long since left, and life is trying to rebuild itself – do those pieces come back into play as we search on increasing our understanding. And any drunk who limits themselves to one faith’s opinions or views is limiting themselves in the greater scheme of things IMHO. Just like AA – sometimes it’s not the message that I can’t understand – but the WAY it’s said that can trip me up. So I shut my mouth and listen, and sometimes something clicks.
Hope that helps – didn’t expect to go on like that. LOL.
Take care - Pad
There’s nothing quicker in turning a meeting over to a debate than discuss one’s METHOD OF SPIRITUALITY. What works for one – offends another. Thus – anonymity and equality are the guiding principals.
A gentleman and I both attend meetings regularly at this club we go to – we’re both homegroup members. When we both speak, we don’t mention our faiths. Most people know he’s a priest, and I’m Jewish. But that’s not mentioned in the meetings. What each of us are sharing are our experiences in reaching this ‘higher power’ to help us stay away from the drink one more day, to keep our insanity at bay, as that’s the real problem – not the drinking one.
Something that’s usually missed and something I point out to people I work with is what Bill W mentions in the BB (Bill’s Story – pg 11 – 3rd ed) – “For myself, I adopted those parts which seemed convenient and not too difficult, the rest I discarded”
Those ‘discarded’ pieces will manifest as time goes on. But in the beginning, I’m just trying to hold onto for dear life. LATER, when the cravings have long since left, and life is trying to rebuild itself – do those pieces come back into play as we search on increasing our understanding. And any drunk who limits themselves to one faith’s opinions or views is limiting themselves in the greater scheme of things IMHO. Just like AA – sometimes it’s not the message that I can’t understand – but the WAY it’s said that can trip me up. So I shut my mouth and listen, and sometimes something clicks.
Hope that helps – didn’t expect to go on like that. LOL.
Take care - Pad
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 14
Wow! That's really cool Padawan.
*gives Padawan the patented 'Boba Fett nod' in recognition of a fellow Star Wars fan - by the way.*
I'm not Christian, myself, but damn if I don't find some seriously spiritual teachings from Jesus by glancing at the Bible every now and then. I got a red-letter Bible for just that purpose. At first, I had to admit that he sounded like a very cool guy, at the very least. He would've made a great sponsor.
I think the longer I stick around, the more spirituality I see in just about everything - even things I never used to like. That's one of the more awesome things about recovery, I guess.
*gives Padawan the patented 'Boba Fett nod' in recognition of a fellow Star Wars fan - by the way.*
I'm not Christian, myself, but damn if I don't find some seriously spiritual teachings from Jesus by glancing at the Bible every now and then. I got a red-letter Bible for just that purpose. At first, I had to admit that he sounded like a very cool guy, at the very least. He would've made a great sponsor.
I think the longer I stick around, the more spirituality I see in just about everything - even things I never used to like. That's one of the more awesome things about recovery, I guess.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by Stoic
Doesn't pay to think too much, too early, in the process.
Hello! Is this seat taken??
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A Denver far far away...
Posts: 92
* returns Spark's patented recognition nod and holds up 2 tickets to Max Rebo *
Sorry - just catching back up. I don't get to stop in much with my new schedule and single dad-ness life. So I apologize.
The thing to remember here is that the mind of a chronic alchoholic can complicate a toothpick, especially in the begining. Bill's example shows how to make something so complicated - simple. I didn't walk into AA a jew, I walked in a drunk. It wasn't until lots of hard work with a sponsor, some service work, and then eventually a sponsee that allowed me to return to my childhood faith with a much better understanding.
In the begining - it was just a few concepts that I had. Those 'pieces' if you will that I could grasp. And not surprisingly as my sponsor pointed out - they were concepts that I was practicing the exact oposite of. The rest were drunks like me, sharing in meetings, or staying after for coffee, or coming with me to another meeting - as I didn't trust myself outside the rooms of AA.
But the key thing here is TRUSTING that higher power. And if you look hard at step 3 - you might notice that it's actually an agreement - that I would be taken care of so long as I remained honest with myself and Him.
I haven't won the lottery (yet - still trying though just for kicks), but my daughter and I aren't on the streets either. My needs have been met, and for that I'm forever grateful.
So I guess my thoughts on HP's from the begining is this. Think of it like an ocean.. There's plenty of ways to get to the ocean, but until one actually 'touches' that vastness - they won't get wet.
There's no way I'll ever understand the whole ocean - but I had to reach out and touch it first. THEN I could work on trusting it a bit more each day.
hope everyone's well!
Pad
Sorry - just catching back up. I don't get to stop in much with my new schedule and single dad-ness life. So I apologize.
The thing to remember here is that the mind of a chronic alchoholic can complicate a toothpick, especially in the begining. Bill's example shows how to make something so complicated - simple. I didn't walk into AA a jew, I walked in a drunk. It wasn't until lots of hard work with a sponsor, some service work, and then eventually a sponsee that allowed me to return to my childhood faith with a much better understanding.
In the begining - it was just a few concepts that I had. Those 'pieces' if you will that I could grasp. And not surprisingly as my sponsor pointed out - they were concepts that I was practicing the exact oposite of. The rest were drunks like me, sharing in meetings, or staying after for coffee, or coming with me to another meeting - as I didn't trust myself outside the rooms of AA.
But the key thing here is TRUSTING that higher power. And if you look hard at step 3 - you might notice that it's actually an agreement - that I would be taken care of so long as I remained honest with myself and Him.
I haven't won the lottery (yet - still trying though just for kicks), but my daughter and I aren't on the streets either. My needs have been met, and for that I'm forever grateful.
So I guess my thoughts on HP's from the begining is this. Think of it like an ocean.. There's plenty of ways to get to the ocean, but until one actually 'touches' that vastness - they won't get wet.
There's no way I'll ever understand the whole ocean - but I had to reach out and touch it first. THEN I could work on trusting it a bit more each day.
hope everyone's well!
Pad
Choosing Life
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: London
Posts: 889
Originally Posted by Stoic
As I was reading your responses, it occurred to me that I have a tendency to analyze things, to find a rational explanation and justification for everything I do.
much love
JC
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
Originally Posted by padawan
The thing to remember here is that the mind of a chronic alchoholic can complicate a toothpick
Pad
How am I doing?
Originally Posted by Best
Seems I am finding it doesn't pay to think too much later in the process either
I'm not completely sure we will ever be able to live free of the thinking process... The discipline to not act on all of our thoughts does come in handy though. Thats the payoff.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 51
You're doing well, Gooch, but you've only begun, barely scratching the surface. I mean, why do toothpicks exist? Are they really necessary? After all, now we have dental floss, and we have to ask ourselves whether there's any justification for using one over the other. And why don't our teeth automatically clean themselves? It's all too overwhelming...
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Atlanta,Georgia
Posts: 18
God!!!!!!!!!
How's this, I went ot a family fundamentals class with my addict husband this weekend , a speaker for a class Called Spirituality vs Religion opened my eyes to understand what they could mean here are a few words for ya. GOD: Good Orderly Direction EGO: Edging GOD Out.... I thought these were pretty neat. Also when someone ask you if you are fine... think about it for a minute.... FINE: Freaking, Insecure,neurotic,egotistical.... I'll sure watch when someine ask me that again....
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