24hrsatatime

I hate to sound this way, but I'm curious if anyone here has had the experience I have with Suboxone. I didn't cure my addiction by any means, and nothing ever will do that, but it has definitely freed me from the obsession and compulsion of active addiction and allowed me to work on the real problem...me. I really respect all of the posts I've read here, as I'm sure that all of the horror stories are true, I just wonder if there is anyone whose experience has been positive like mine. I know that I can't be the only person who feels this way. I've never experienced being "high" from suboxone. Thus far, I have detoxed from 16mg to 4mg and I've had virtually no w/d symptoms. I realize that I have a long way to go before I'm off, but I also know I'm a lot closer to the life I want and deserve than I was a year ago, or even for the year I was completely "clean" as I didn't work a program of recovery in that year. The combination of Suboxone and 12 step work has saved my life. I truly don't think I could have done one without the other and gotten this far. I know that Suboxone without a recovery program doesn't succeed, but neither does abstinence. I'm just curious if anyone has any positive information to share. I'm not knocking the horror stories at all, but the bottom line is that whatever happens with the rest of my taper, the time I've been on Suboxone has been very productive for me, and even if I have to go through full blown w/d like I would have if I had went cold turkey, I've had a year to work on getting tools to help me manage my recovery. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just looking for someone who may have benefited from their time in treatment like I have. I would love to hear from anyone else who feels like they've been saved from the hell of active addiction with suboxone or anyone who has had a successful taper and remained in recovery long term. Don't get me wrong, like I said nothing wrong with horror stories, but I am an optimist and would like something to look forward to.

Thanks in advance.

SLD

Wow... your post relates to the word "clean", as in, "I've been clean for X days." And the strong implication is, being "clean" is the correct and only way to go. You're CLEAN, and the antonym is DIRTY. No one wants to be dirty.

Most people using suboxone are apparently not considered "clean", even by some NA people. Does this mean we are dirty, somehow filthier than those magical creatures who are clean?

I hate that word.

Suboxone is to me a miracle drug that replaced years of opiate abuse. It cured me of addictive behaviors, cravings, the mental and physical rollercoaster, the guilt, the shame. My suboxone doc told me flat out - "This drug is designed to alter your lifestyle from one of habitual drug seeking and dangerous behavior, to one moderated, controlled and stable. Years of opiate abuse physically changes the brain chemistry. There is a possibility you may be on suboxone the rest of your life. If so, so what? A diabetic uses insulin to function. You'll use suboxone to function."

She encouraged me to quit, but never insisted on it. Attempts to do so result in a black depression that I know from experience will last for months or years. A tiny orange strip the size of my pinky fingernail prevents this. I have too much living to do. I don't want to spend months or years in depression, possibly on SSRI's and similar, chasing a WORD... clean.

Don't feel guilty about suboxone. Use it as a tool. Quit it if you can. Above all, don't value yourself based upon a word like clean, or not clean. People with high blood pressure take pills. So do folk with extremes in cholesterol, diabetes, a dozen other diseases. Is addiction a disease? Everyone says so these days. So what's wrong with a medicine to fight it? But again, uh oh, you're not really "clean" are you? That's what people will say to you, and you'll feel devalued.

Sorry this is a hot button topic with me. I wish you every success in whatever you want to do, but always remember, life on suboxone is better than life on handfulls of pills, or needles in your arm. NEVER go back to that!

albeitslowly

SLD is right.

I am also someone with a positive experience with suboxone. Well, subutex. Same thing, minus the naloxone.

A lot of people don't agree with ORT but you know what? If we can return as functioning, contributing members of society... and we are happy and no longer using... who cares what they think!

There are those of us with positive experiences out here too.

24hrsatatime

Thanks for your posts. I put the word "clean" in quotes meaning that I have had many people tell me that I am still in active addiction because of my choice to take suboxone as part of my recovery plan. If you misunderstood and thought that I was in some way implying that suboxone is bad, I apologize. I was only making the point that when I did it cold turkey, "clean" is all that I was. I wasn't using drugs but I was still living my life in the isolation and pain of active addiction. In my opinion, that was in no way better than where I am today. I'm tapering off of suboxone and I believe that I have gained the tools while I've been on suboxone to maintain my recovery in the future, but make no mistake, if the taper doesn't continue to go well, I will happily remain on suboxone for as long as it's necessary. I work my rear end off to improve my life and I don't allow anyone to devalue my recovery, including NA purists, who in my experience are usually bitter because they weren't able to choose suboxone. Most feel that because I didn't go through the withdrawal cold turkey that I haven't done what they have. I went through cold turkey withdrawals more than once, but unlike my suboxone treatment, I was never able to gain any type of freedom from my active addiction. I wasn't using, but the thought was never far from my mind, and I was still the same miserable person. Today I am happy, healthy, and productive. No matter what some people may say, I am in recovery and I have no desire to chase a word anymore than I want to chase a pill. I am working on my life and the issues that lead me to my addiction and when I was "clean" I wasn't able to do that. For the record, I don't feel like I'm "dirty" and I used the word "clean" and put it in quotations because I was trying to convey that it is just a word and in my experience not a state of being. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that because you have chosen to use suboxone you are somehow less than someone who as went with abstinence and managed to work a program successfully. From what I've seen and experienced myself, neither suboxone or abstinence, by themselves lead to recovery. We have to do much more than simply taking suboxone or not using to actual get into recovery. If I somehow offended anyone it wasn't my intention to do so. I would never devalue anyone's chosen path to recovery, as it is their choice and not mine, and I also don't allow anyone to devalue my recovery.

The reason I posted this thread is because I had a lady call me scared to death because of all of the horror stories she has read on the internet. My hope was to try to show the other side, I certainly wasn't trying to come across as against the use of Suboxone in any way. Suboxone isn't for everyone, but imo if you're ready to change your life, it is a wonderful tool to relieve you of the physical withdrawals and obsession with using, so that you can begin to work on the issues that lead to using in the first place.

Deuce85

Suboxone is great in getting you to stopping your drug of choice. It helped me and If i had to do it over again I would. Only thing i would do different is i would have quit sub earlier than I did. I stayed on it for 16 months. I quit 75 days ago and i still have withdrawal symptoms not bad. Mostly depression and anxiety. Think hard before you stay on this for extended periods of time. If you want to be on it your whole life fine go for it. But if you eventually plan on quitting i would do that as soon as you feel your ready.

24hrsatatime

Thanks ttal914. I'm tapering currently. No w/d to speak of yet...just a runny nose when I went down the last time that started around day 4 after decrease and ended at day 7-8. Can't give exact day cause it really wasn't bad enough for me to remember. I'm glad you had a positive experience and I agree that if you don't have to be on suboxone for extended periods this would be wonderful, I however realize that I abused drugs for 20 years and my body and brain need time to recuperate from the damage I caused. Suboxone is giving me the time to work on myself and heal and for that I'm forever grateful. I guess the time thing is individual for everyone, but personally I was put on a very high dose in the beginning, I guess b/c of the amount of oxycodone I was shooting, but I've been tapering since I was 2 wks in. I started treatment on June 10, 2011 and that seems to be a short time compared with some I know that have been on for 5 years and don't want to taper. I'm not sure that I can see any benefit of me staying on it any longer than the taper plan my dr. has me on, unless I get down to nothing and it comes to subs or relapse, then I will pick suboxone all day long and twice on sunday. I'm hoping I have the tools in place to maintain recovery on my own after the taper.

So far so good. Hopefully I can wean on down and share a good experience with others. I think the biggest problem with all of the negativity is that once people are done with suboxone they don't come back to forums like these to say how wonderful their lives are. They move on. What your left with is the negative and very little positive. Thank you for sharing your experience. Out of curiosity are you doing any type of program (12 step groups, therapy, etc.)?

dragonfire613

I have to say I'm doing well going on 1 month off suboxone this week... i can't say the kick was a pleasant experience, necessarily, but if nothing else suboxone got me out of the drug scene years ago. I'm sure I held on to it a bit longer than I had to, but I've made it this far!

Deuce85

I go to therapy. I'm struggling to get in the 12 steps. I have had really bad depression these past couple of days. But besides that withdrawals have not been that bad. That's great that you are tapering I jumped off at 1 mg which is too high of a jump some say. I read on websites like subsux that I am going through paws. Numerous people on there say they feel much better at the 3 to 4 month mark. So I am hoping this is the case for me.

Deuce85

Dragonfire that's great tht you are a month strong. How is your mental state?

dragonfire613

I was on subs 4 years and jumped after a few months at 1mg/day... my mental state is pretty good these days... I'd say 4 days out of 5 I do fine... and the one day out of 5 my AV will start whispering to me and I might be more lethargic or down, with some mild anxiety or craving thoughts... but I always know it will pass and then the next day I'm back to being ok again.

Sometimes on those down days I feel like there is a veil between me and my emotions... kind of like I'm numb emotionally and have trouble feeling any kind of emotion, be it good or bad. I attribute it to all the years of opiate abuse (maybe some PAWS)... and I have faith that it will improve as time goes on.

In the end its not anything I can't cope with... especially compared to the roller coaster of active addiction. That's one of the things that keeps me going at this point.

snoopy87

Im a recovering drunk so I don't have experience with this. But, I was told from many wise people that if you are under a physicians care for suboxone, or any other type of medication and take it as directed, it counts as being clean. I've known many people who have successfully recovered using suboxone, and I've also seen some abuse it. Same goes for pain meds, xanax, etc.... If it works and helps aid one's recovery, then God Bless it.

dragonfire613

I think its a personal preference... if another user is trying to climb out of the s**thole using suboxone under a doctor's care and wants to call themselves clean, I will not argue with them or tell them I think otherwise.

But it always really bothered me when the doc/nurse would tell me "congrats on x months clean... etc etc". My goal was to be clean of ALL opiates, and I was still taking a powerful opiate under a doctor's supervision. (and if I was clean, I would not go into horrible withdrawals if I suddenly stopped, right? wrong.) So while suboxone was a godsend and changed my life (although, yes, I did abuse it early on, and was terrified to come off of it), I did not consider myself "clean" until now, that I can pass any type of drug screen you want to throw at me, buprenorphine included. That was my end goal all those years on suboxone, and it got me to this point.

I know there are a vast number of opinions that disagree with me on this, but to each his own. I just never felt "clean" while I was still taking opiates daily... doctor's care or not.

SLD

In the end, isn't this all that matters for anyone? In any sort of recovery? Whether you consume 4/1000ths of a gram of a molecule, or not? I think so.

Oh believe me, I understand fully and know you were not implying anything otherwise. IMO, the way society views the addict, the addiction and recovery process, is grossly antiquated. There is a very strong presumption that clean is the only "correct" way to live, and that is simply not true.

People are born different. Some people (I envy them tremendously) are naturally upbeat, excited, thrilled with life and the challenges that are always there. Others can find life somehow dark, unpleasant, and go through the motions, so to say, putting on a happy face for those around him or her, while softly crying on the inside. The latter type (me) finds that opiates = happiness, energy, enthusiasm, motivation, love of life. It's like a bolt of lightning. For the first time in their lives, they understand what the "normal" person feels like, every day. And the thought of not feeling like that is unbearable.

I am convinced that brain chemistry, the cocktail of endorphins and neurotransmitters that work their magic, is vastly more complicated than science will admit, and that it is a basis for an enormous number of problems written off as being "weak willed" or simply not having the right state of mind... as if we can simply will ourselves to be happy.

As always, I need to qualify my post. Everyone is different... what is right for me isn't right for others, and if a person can be happy and healthy off buprenorphine, that is obviously the way to go. I simply wish society would acknowledge that some of us are wired differently.

Dragonfire, you have my deepest respect. Good luck in your recovery, and I hope you can find the joy that is out there without bupe.

dragonfire613

I agree with you SLD totally... the hook for me was exactly as you described. opiates=happiness, energy, enthusiasm, motivation, love of life. Precisely a bolt a lightning.

My biggest fear in being clean is that I will never feel that way again without opiates. I'm simply going on faith alone (and testimonials of many others) that I am wrong on that point. I don't necessarily expect it to be an easy road, but if I get there at all (even if it takes a tremendous amount of work and time), I will consider it worth it.

I think a lifetime being on suboxone is much desirable over many of the alternatives, and applaud anyone who takes that step in their life as opposed to the nightmare of active addiction. Like you say, you can't just will yourself to be happy (if it were that easy, we'd all be a bunch of bumbling smiling lunatics).

For me, I want to be content (don't confuse this with happy... nobody should be happy all the time, it isn't natural). I don't expect my desire to be content with myself and my life to simply make it happen. Like any other goal, I expect to have to work at it, and if I do, I expect results. Perhaps unlike some others, there were periods in my life before addiction that I was precisely the person I wanted to be, so I have faith that I can get there again if I try hard enough. Hope I'm not wrong on that point.

If in 5 years from now, I'm still clean and have worked all that time to be at my desired levels of positive, energetic, good mood, etc. and am still here at square 1, then sign me up for the clinic for life.

I also believe that the medical/biology community only understands a fraction of brain function/chemistry (even though they may sometimes wish us to think the understand more than they do). Some people will never have a healthy brain chemistry without medical assistance.

Thanks for the respect, it goes both ways bro.

SLD

Outstanding points.

You are correct, and I probably shouldn't use the word "happy" so freely, because a constant happy is entirely artificial and not realistic. Besides, one cannot understand happy without experiencing sad. If one were "happy" all the time, then the baseline would reset, and that happy-level would become the "normal" level - which it ain't. I hope that makes sense.

Rather than happy, a better way to look at it would be "mentally and physically equipped to experience normal ups and downs in life." I had a point where even things that should be utterly joyful did little for me. It was like part of me was saying "Dude, what's wrong with you? Everything is great! So why do you feel like ****?" Then, the opiates...


May I say...

... that takes immense courage. Press on!

24hrsatatime

Thank you all so much for sharing the positive stories. I am helping a lady through her induction and she couldn't fathom that her life would be manageable without stuffing something in her every couple of hours. You have all demonstrated the wonderful range of experiences with suboxone better than I could have ever put it myself.

Dragonfire: Congrats I'm glad you've been successful in your taper. I'm also very glad to see that you still come back to post. Seems most don't hence the negative press. In my experience it's best to build a support network when things are going well than to try to find support when things are falling apart. You seem to be staying connected to your program. As for whether you were clean or not on sub, that's for you to decide. I don't really look at "clean" or "dirty" so much anymore. The way I see it recovery is a journey not a destination. I'm on one leg of my journey now and when I complete my taper I will start another leg of my journey. I do know the date that I started suboxone and for all intents and purposes for now, like at NA mtgs. etc, I use that date for anniversaries. When I finish my taper, I will probably change the date, not b/c I'm "clean", but b/c the way we use our chips is a little different. We say the welcome chip is for 24 hours or someone recommitting themselves to the program, or entering another phase of their recovery. We have several maintenance patients so it works at our fellowship.

Becron

I hope its not to late to jump this thread. But I'm sooo happy Icame. Acroos it on here. I start in patient detox and recovery the 3rd and I'm so excited and scared at the same time I'm a heavy viv percs roxy oxy well whatever I can get basically for six yrs last year has been the worst at average 20 per day. I decided I'm done in july and I'm. Doing it for me and only me right now then I will focus on everything else I need to work on later (my marriage finances and maintaining being a great mom) i ve tried quitting so many times for my kids using the excuse I can't keep using to be a good mom with energy like all other "normal" moms I use the word normal loosly. As I hate to use any kind of word to best describe anyone other then myself. Long story short july I went to a clinic dr didn't even do a psysichal he asked me for 300 cash and gave me a script and told me to take 4 mgs as soo as I got home then another 4 mgs. Till I felt better it had been 24 hrs since I used however within an hr of taking the sub I was deathly sick for 3 days and I called the dr he told me to keep taking the sub he said I wasn't taking enough I kept getting more sick. Finally I got so discouraged I stopped and went. right back to vicodin I let that go on for a few wks until I called my dad when my husband went to wrok and fessed up to everything (he's and er dr he has literally seen it all over 40 yrs he was shockingly very understanding I thought why'd I wait so long to tell my parents my mom and dad helped me find and inpatient facility my ins pays for and I have a bed reserved for the 3rd. I asked them how they ussually detox ppl they said suboxone naturally I got scared and told them what happened to me. They told me I was probably pushed into precipitaded wds and if I decide I don't want sub they are other ways. But I'm deffinetly willing to give sub another shot knowing I will be medically supervised for 5 to 7 days and they won't let anything go wrong I've heard soooo many horror stories about suboxone but this thread has me feeling so optimistic now! If it helps the cravings and allows me to lead a better life while working a program I'm for it if I could do it without maintance then great but I really want this and don't want to jeopordize it by trying to be heroic and say I don't need anything and find myself craving in a month maybe that won't happen but if suboxone can make sure it won't I will give it another try. Its just that my first time went so horribally bad I swore it off.

SLD

You either got into precipitated withdrawals, OR... you didn't get enough suboxone into your system. You are supposed to be in mild to moderate WD before using suboxone.

Some general notes:

One thing I've read over and over is how people administer the drug to themselves is often very wrong. Buprenorphine cannot be swallowed. It isn't bio-available in the gut. It MUST go through the mucous membranes. You can't swallow strips anyhow if that is what you got as an Rx. But sometimes, I hear of people doing the sublingual thing, then immediately spitting out the saliva that inevitably forms. All that is happening is that people are spitting their expensive medicine in the sink, or a cup.

The drug must maintain prolonged contact with the mouth lining. It doesn't "zip" right into the bloodstream, it takes some time. So when using the pills or strips, the goal should be to neither swallow the saliva, nor spit it out. Instead, distribute the medicine-laden spit all around your mouth. I know this sounds gross, and it doesn't taste good, but it is the reality of buprenorphine.

The strips (IMO) are better for getting the medicine into you. Think of it like a pinch of snuff. For anyone interested, try this - take your strip (or portion), pull your lower lip away from the gum line, and tuck the piece there, rather than below the tongue. There's almost no saliva, and the strip slowly dissolves, and it gives time for the bupe to get into your bloodstream.

Anyway, I have no idea what happened to you, but I find it really odd that your doc sent you home. they usually induct in an office setting, making sure you know how to do the sublingual thing.

The dose that works varies wildly between people. Obviously, think long and hard about what route you want to take in your own recovery. I think most will agree that if cold turkey simply doesn't work, then life on suboxone is better (definitely healthier) than 20 or more pills with 10+ grams of acitaminophen wrecking your liver.

Good luck!

Dovie0212

I didn't have any horror stories with suboxone. I am currently withdrawing from it now. I am tired of how it makes me feel and I don't think my dr is really helping me. Just pushing more of it on me and I don't want that anymore.

I did get a little buzz from it now and again, sort of like being on vicodin but overall my experience with it was positive. As long as you are under a dr.'s supervision suboxone should really work for you.

24hrsatatime

inkprints,
I'm kicking at the moment and my progress has by no means been put on hold. That's why I worked my ass off during my time on suboxone this time, so I could go on without it, but that's just me. I didn't just switch my doc and we don't give medical advice here, but sub was not designed for short term detox and I have never gotten "high" from subs, don't even understand the concept of getting "high" on it. Not a point I want to argue with you as everyone feels differently and defines "high" differently.

What I do want to say is that statistics show that the most effective way to achieve lasting recovery is combining maintenance medications like sub or methadone with things like 12 step support or group therapy or some other kind of behavior modification program. Suboxone is designed to reduce physical w/d but it is no cure. Regardless you have to work at recovery every day, just as we worked at being addicts. I sincerely hope that since you're going off that you find a support network, because we don't recover alone. I know you had a bad experience with AA at 15, but in my experience most of the bad stuff I went through I was at least partly to blame, and you're not 15 anymore, so please go and give some type of 12step program a try. You ain't got anything to lose by doing so.