Carlotta

It was at some point a project to have a brother organization to Women For Sobriety but it never got off the ground and I don't think there are any literature around.

Threshold

I think bashing is in the eye of the beholder. And one thing that many of us have found unpalatable about some AA groups is that to speak honestly or question ANY aspect of the program or meetings is considered bashing and the person (who might be very honest and authentic) is given a slap down.

So thank goodness that we ARE able to come here and be honest, and seek answers without being told we are looking for an excuse to drink.

I don't care if AA changes. There are so many 12 steps groups now that fit every addiction and life philosophy that when I found I had serious issues with AA, there were places I could go. I didn't have to disrupt AA or get anyone's panties in a bunch by suggesting they change. Many groups and members feel if it was good enough for Bill W it's good enough for them, and that is great.

If it isn't good for me, I move on to something that is. Much of what is said and done there doesn't make sense to me, and when I asked about, I was told that asking was the same as criticizing....If that is the mindset then no, it is NOT the place for me. No harm, no foul. I have left other organizations for the same reasons.

It's important that we do alert people to options, including 12 step options for recovery. Because many people do seem to have issues with the "nonessential" aspects of the program, rather than the steps themselves.

I cannot wrap my head around the use of the Lord's Prayer at meetings of a group that jumps up and down red in the face if anyone says they seem religious. Nor can I understand the value in telling a person who refrains from joining the prayer circle that maybe they should go out and drink some more until they are willing to go to any lengths to get sober.

My HP is sobriety itself, and the part of me that wants to and is perfectly capable of living sober. There is clearly a part of me that wants the sober life, so...what would my sober self do today? What would sober me do in this situation? My sober self has never suggested I drink.

Maybe there is a real need for us secular 12 steppers to focus more on creating secular 12 literature and promoting that which is already out there, rather than just share tips on how to grin and bear it in a standard AA meeting.

Morning Glory

I apologize freshstart. That was my fault.

freshstart57

Awesomeness, MG.

Boleo

When I say "I'm an alcoholic", I am don't feel bad about it at all. The first few times I said it I was speaking from the perspective of a victim and it was humiliating to say it.

However, once I understood what it meant to be an alcoholic, I stopped thinking of myself as a victim and started thinking of myself as a student of the spiritual path of life. At that point, it was no longer humiliation but transformed into humility. Same outside experience. Big inside experience.

Now when I say "I'm an alcoholic". I can say it with pride. I am no longer a victim and am now a victor.

afime

The first few times I said that I was an alcoholic in an AA meeting, I tripped over the word. There was a lump in my throat the size of a baseball. I wanted to cry afterward. But I don't hate it now. In fact, I find it kind of affirming to be around drunks and the saying of it, at least in that space, allows me to be free from the shame. It's a reminder that we share a bond from our common struggle.

Also, I like the practice of repeating our names. My home group is pretty big and I'm still new, so the name repetition helps me remember who's who.

matt4x4

My mind made up excuses all the time as to why to not attend AA meetings.
One was they are a bunch of whiners, losers of life.
Another one was AA is a cult. Holding hands, in some cases a group hug.
AA is a lie. They say its not a religious program but some groups sing the Lords Prayer which is very religious.
But I realize that my mind and thought pattern is just making excuses to go out and drink. It helps millions of people, more so then any other program on earth. So I wanted to try it, I saw people that were happy, serene, enjoying life. I wanted what they had, not all, but the select few that have worked the steps and are living and sharing in the solution not the problem.

2muchpain

I used to ask a lot of questions at AA meetings, but was told I think to much. I was just trying to figure things out so they make sense to me. I was told it is a program of action, so I that means you just do things people tell you to do, even though you don't understand why? We were born with brains, but apparently you suppose to leave your brains outside the meetings. Just doesn't make sense to me. Hard for me to believe in something if I don't understand it.

Threshold

I had a lot of that early on too, wanting to understand it all before I did it. I did find out that I didn't have to understand it to work, and that it began to make sense to me as I moved through the process. It's true, "more will be revealed"

I guess it's like learning a language. I can study and read and perfect my grammar on paper and in my head, but a language is more than that. It's dynamic and vital and there are tone and body and cultural aspects as well that play into the language, that flesh it out and bring it alive.

Working and living the steps and principles are like that. In a book it's this flat thing that doesn't fully make sense. Chemistry formulas without any actual reaction. It can't be known and understood properly until it is lived and done, because it's not a thought program, it IS an action program.

Studying the rules of a game is quite different from playing the game.

2muchpain

Threshold
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. For your example of playing the game. You can't play the game without understanding the rules. I'd like to see someone go on the ice to play hockey without a clue what's going on. Unfortunately, I'm the kind of person that needs to have SOMETHING REVEALED in the beginning, than learn more as I go. As far as your example of learning a language; I have been to countries where I didn't understand the language. It's a lot easier to understand what is going on around you, including the culture, if I first went to class and studied the language including what to expect culturally. I'd also like to see someone throw a bunch of chemicals together without any knowledge of their potential reactions, and see what happens. A little risky if you ask me. Asking questions is important in understanding and learning something new.

Threshold

2 much,

I don't suggest that you go in without ANY knowledge or understanding at all, sorry if I was unclear. But that it can't be fully understood without doing it.

That has been my experience, which is all I have to share.

I am a scientist and while I have studied a great deal in books, I don't feel as if I really KNOW the subject until I am involved and interacting with it on an actual basis.

It's not an either/or, it's a both/and.

No need to check your brain at the door, but no need to get a PhD on recovery before you work the steps.

People have different personalities and styles of learning and living. Maybe AVRT would better suit you.

matt4x4

I know that the light will turn on when I hit the switch.

Do I have to understand everything about electricity and electrons before I even turn the switch on?

Sounds to me like we are making up excuses again.

2muchpain

matt4X4

If I was making up excuses, I'd admit it. I've been going to AA meetings for many years, so I know what I'm talking about. AA, like any organization has its good points and bad points. That's just the way it is. When people put down AA, I am one of the first to defend it, if they are wrong. But that's just not always the case. When I give my opinion about different aspects of AA, it comes from many years of experience, not just a few months. Saying I am making excuses just shifts the problem back to me and not where it belongs. It's always the person that has the problem, never AA. Try "discussing" AA with someone. When people say you should never talk politics or religion with people, AA should be included. I believe I've earned the right to say this.

2muchpain

I would also like to add that many times, I would be upset with AA over time, but after a while, I realized I was the one that was wrong. Unfortunately though, some things stand the test of time.

awuh1

There are some interesting thoughts expressed here. I can relate quite a bit to what toomuchpain and threshold are both saying. Just like toomuchpain, I got a lot of the “you think too much” sort of comments when I first came to AA. Those comments used to drive me nuts. Fortunately I ran into someone who gently challenged some of my fundamental notions of reality, and did it in a way that made me think. This in turn allowed me to do some investigation. For me, some degree of understanding was needed in order for to move forward. What was also needed was a certain amount of open mindedness, in order to examine how I searched for the truth, as well as what I found.

I think threshold has a good point about 'doing the thing'. Sometimes that’s the only way to reach certain kinds of understanding. It's a bit like a person who has never tasted a strawberry trying to understand what it tastes like by listening to peoples description of the taste. You can get a sense of it, but in the end, you need to actually eat a strawberry to know what it tastes like. But even then, you can only know what a strawberry tastes like to you.

readerbaby71

Oh, BS. The ol' "making up excuses" retort when ANYONE questions ANYTHING about AA is so tired. The program itself is extremely useful and works wonders if you work it, but the unsolicited judgments of those who subscribe to extremely rigid thinking can really turn people off and discourage them from going to meetings.

2muchpain

readerbaby71
Finally someone who gets it. I knew I was not alone in this. I think AA is a great program and has helped a lot of people, but the attitudes of some of the people can be a turn off. I'm sure they mean well, but to someone new to the program, it can be a bit much.

dSober

Take what you need and leave the rest 2much. Just go and keep coming back.