Atheist/Agnostic Pamphlet--shelved
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Atheist/Agnostic Pamphlet--shelved
I attended the NC state conference this past weekend. Very cool experience--1300 people, great speakers, excellent fellowship.
One discussion that caught my attention was how a pamphlet for Atheists/Agnostics was shelved at the General Service conference (at the state level, I believe, but not sure, don't quote me). A bit troubling . . . one thing we can do as secular members of AA is become more active in these types of discussions. Share our ESH and let our voices be heard. There are pamphlets for young people, gays and lesbians, the elderly, the drug addicted in addition to alcoholic, those with mental illnesses, and on and on. Why not a pamphlet for the atheist/agnostic? I know for myself, it was THE single most difficult hurdle to jump.
One of the arguments against the pamphlet was "taking God out of AA." Sounds like fear to me, and don't we have a pamphlet for that too?
Any thoughts?
One discussion that caught my attention was how a pamphlet for Atheists/Agnostics was shelved at the General Service conference (at the state level, I believe, but not sure, don't quote me). A bit troubling . . . one thing we can do as secular members of AA is become more active in these types of discussions. Share our ESH and let our voices be heard. There are pamphlets for young people, gays and lesbians, the elderly, the drug addicted in addition to alcoholic, those with mental illnesses, and on and on. Why not a pamphlet for the atheist/agnostic? I know for myself, it was THE single most difficult hurdle to jump.
One of the arguments against the pamphlet was "taking God out of AA." Sounds like fear to me, and don't we have a pamphlet for that too?
Any thoughts?
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This is a common occurrence at the conference, so look for this item to be back up for discussion next year. This wasn't the only item that was tabled.
It wasn't put on the back burner. Our delegate reported that the Trustees Literature Committee feels that there is a need, however they want more feedback from the groups.
My opinion as to whether there is a need is irelevant. The sense I got from discussion at our pre-conference in March is that many do feel there is a need. I don't know why the conference can't act on that. It is almost like they are afraid to act.
Jim
It wasn't put on the back burner. Our delegate reported that the Trustees Literature Committee feels that there is a need, however they want more feedback from the groups.
My opinion as to whether there is a need is irelevant. The sense I got from discussion at our pre-conference in March is that many do feel there is a need. I don't know why the conference can't act on that. It is almost like they are afraid to act.
Jim
Last edited by jimhere; 07-21-2009 at 07:08 PM.
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Jim,
Thanks for clarifying. Do you think it would help, at this point, to write to our delegate? Is there something else we could do?
You know, there's a lot of bemoaning about being an atheist in AA, but unless us secular members act to help those who struggle with similar issues, all of our whining is in vain.
Thanks for clarifying. Do you think it would help, at this point, to write to our delegate? Is there something else we could do?
You know, there's a lot of bemoaning about being an atheist in AA, but unless us secular members act to help those who struggle with similar issues, all of our whining is in vain.
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Originally Posted by Pagekeeper 
Jim,
Thanks for clarifying. Do you think it would help, at this point, to write to our delegate? Is there something else we could do?
You know, there's a lot of bemoaning about being an atheist in AA, but unless us secular members act to help those who struggle with similar issues, all of our whining is in vain.
Thanks for clarifying. Do you think it would help, at this point, to write to our delegate? Is there something else we could do?
You know, there's a lot of bemoaning about being an atheist in AA, but unless us secular members act to help those who struggle with similar issues, all of our whining is in vain.
I think eventually that this pamphlet or piece of literature will come about. It just takes time. It took several years of this same type of back-and-forth between the groups and the conference for the Fourth Edition to even be considered, and then several more years before it became a reality. Here in our area, it took six years of discussion at area assemblies, quarterlies, and groups before an area aceesibilities committee was formed.
Patience is the watchword here.
Jim
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I did a little poking around. This topic has been brought to the conference 5-6 times since the mid 70s.
Is there a need? I honestly don't know how I feel about that. I do know that one of the main misunderstandings for newcomers is that they will be converted or it's just a prayer thing. A lot of minds close right up when the word God is mentioned.
Personally, I think most all of those elderly/young/gay/other pamphlets serve a purpose for the greater community. Once in AA however, the message is best carried by the recovered alcoholic. We can't rely on a pamphlet to do it.
In a lot of ways, I think that drawing further distinctions or 'uniqueness' distances overselves from the primary purpose of AA. Same solution, same program, same steps, whether you're male or female, straight or gay, young or old, Christian or atheist, rich or poor. There is such difficulty with thinking that I need to find 'my program' because I'm so different from all the rest of you. That delusion that I need to find what works for me as an individual. Then again, I'm a white American middle-aged straight male, so it's easy for me to say.
Maybe just one pamphlet that says we have a solution if you have a problem with alcohol. Wait, I think there already is one for that.
Is there a need? I honestly don't know how I feel about that. I do know that one of the main misunderstandings for newcomers is that they will be converted or it's just a prayer thing. A lot of minds close right up when the word God is mentioned.
Personally, I think most all of those elderly/young/gay/other pamphlets serve a purpose for the greater community. Once in AA however, the message is best carried by the recovered alcoholic. We can't rely on a pamphlet to do it.
In a lot of ways, I think that drawing further distinctions or 'uniqueness' distances overselves from the primary purpose of AA. Same solution, same program, same steps, whether you're male or female, straight or gay, young or old, Christian or atheist, rich or poor. There is such difficulty with thinking that I need to find 'my program' because I'm so different from all the rest of you. That delusion that I need to find what works for me as an individual. Then again, I'm a white American middle-aged straight male, so it's easy for me to say.
Maybe just one pamphlet that says we have a solution if you have a problem with alcohol. Wait, I think there already is one for that.
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Well..as someone who is a member of AA, I have to say that my expreeince has been that my path is my own...although it includes the 12 steps....I still believe the expereince of hearing others expereinces from a range of places is the most valuable tool the program offers me.
Because the Athiest who doesn't convert is not a common thing in many areas, a pamflet will share the general experince strength and hope of a number of AAs who's expereinces I need to hear.
I do agree thought that looking for our comonality instead of our differences is absolutely necessary .... it's just not something that I first came to AA able to do, and at times today I still struggle with that...
I always want the steps and AA to be as accessable as possible...all inclusive, never exclusive.
Because the Athiest who doesn't convert is not a common thing in many areas, a pamflet will share the general experince strength and hope of a number of AAs who's expereinces I need to hear.
I do agree thought that looking for our comonality instead of our differences is absolutely necessary .... it's just not something that I first came to AA able to do, and at times today I still struggle with that...
I always want the steps and AA to be as accessable as possible...all inclusive, never exclusive.
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Keith,
Correct me if I am wrong, but no where in the BB does it say we should avoid "drawing distinctions" between ourselves. In fact, the book draws those distinctions for us:
—Alcoholics Anonymous, page 17
The contrast between our being different, yet having a common solution is powerful. A common solution between a bunch of people who are nearly identical is no big deal. The fact that we have found a common solution but are different and come from all walks of life, is part of the universal appeal of our program.
—Alcoholics Anonymous, page 17
The only way drawing distinctions could distance ourselves from our primary purpose is if the distinction itself became part of the solution. The purpose of the pamphlets, in my small opinion, is to make our program as all-inclusive as possible. To answer the question: Can A.A. help me too? To let others know that these distinctions do not prevent us from recovering; although we may all be different, we have found a common solution.
A working list of related pamphlets:
Young People and A.A.
A.A. For The Women
Problems Other Than Alcohol (
Memo To An Inmate
A Message to Teenagers...
Letter To A Women Alcoholic .25
A.A. For The Native North American .40
Gay And Lesbian Pamphlet .40
It Sure Beats Sitting In A Cell .25
A.A. & The Armed Forces
If You Are A Professional
A.A. for the Older Alcoholic - Never Too Late
A.A. for the Black and African American Alcoholic
All quotes from BB 1st edition
Correct me if I am wrong, but no where in the BB does it say we should avoid "drawing distinctions" between ourselves. In fact, the book draws those distinctions for us:
WE, OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, are a fellowship of men and women who were once hopeless. Nearly all have recovered. Our drinking problem is solved. We are average people. Alcoholics from many countries and occupations are represented, as well as many political, economic, social, and religious backgrounds. We are people who normally would not mix. But there exists among us a fellowship, a friendliness, and an understanding which is indescribably wonderful.
The contrast between our being different, yet having a common solution is powerful. A common solution between a bunch of people who are nearly identical is no big deal. The fact that we have found a common solution but are different and come from all walks of life, is part of the universal appeal of our program.
The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution.
The only way drawing distinctions could distance ourselves from our primary purpose is if the distinction itself became part of the solution. The purpose of the pamphlets, in my small opinion, is to make our program as all-inclusive as possible. To answer the question: Can A.A. help me too? To let others know that these distinctions do not prevent us from recovering; although we may all be different, we have found a common solution.
A working list of related pamphlets:
Young People and A.A.
A.A. For The Women
Problems Other Than Alcohol (
Memo To An Inmate
A Message to Teenagers...
Letter To A Women Alcoholic .25
A.A. For The Native North American .40
Gay And Lesbian Pamphlet .40
It Sure Beats Sitting In A Cell .25
A.A. & The Armed Forces
If You Are A Professional
A.A. for the Older Alcoholic - Never Too Late
A.A. for the Black and African American Alcoholic
All quotes from BB 1st edition
Your Distant Friend
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: pittsburgh, pa
Posts: 255
I think should have a pamphlet about
This without addressing labels of religions or beliefs,
Athiesm, Nilism, Agnosticism,Paganism,
..whatever the ism, I think the problem
Can and should be addressed in a non-secular,
non-denominational way, and could be entitled:
"Coming to Know a Higher Power"
Rather than:
"For Athiests/Agnostics"
There is a whole chapter in the big book already,
adressed to agnosticism. (Chapter 4)
A higher power can be "anything greater than ourselves"
and also "no human power" can restore us to sanity,
Is something that we "came to believe"
Light. Truth, Freedom. These all work as higher powers.
"God" just happens to work for a ton of people,
For those that it doesn't, the AA 12 step solution
can still work for them too, with enough willingness
of the heart, and humility of the Ego.
Thanks for letting me share.
This without addressing labels of religions or beliefs,
Athiesm, Nilism, Agnosticism,Paganism,
..whatever the ism, I think the problem
Can and should be addressed in a non-secular,
non-denominational way, and could be entitled:
"Coming to Know a Higher Power"
Rather than:
"For Athiests/Agnostics"
There is a whole chapter in the big book already,
adressed to agnosticism. (Chapter 4)
A higher power can be "anything greater than ourselves"
and also "no human power" can restore us to sanity,
Is something that we "came to believe"
Light. Truth, Freedom. These all work as higher powers.
"God" just happens to work for a ton of people,
For those that it doesn't, the AA 12 step solution
can still work for them too, with enough willingness
of the heart, and humility of the Ego.
Thanks for letting me share.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Pagekeeper,
The spiritual principle of anonymity is one of sameness or undistinguished. Humility demands that I am not unique.
I agree with you. It's wonderful that a common solution works for people who normally would not mix. But I think the point is that it's a common solution, regardless of background or station in life.
If a pamphlet corrects the misconception and is inclusive of a group that feels excluded, then I'm all for it. If it only encourages people to think of themselves as unique, then I can't see the point.
The spiritual principle of anonymity is one of sameness or undistinguished. Humility demands that I am not unique.
I agree with you. It's wonderful that a common solution works for people who normally would not mix. But I think the point is that it's a common solution, regardless of background or station in life.
If a pamphlet corrects the misconception and is inclusive of a group that feels excluded, then I'm all for it. If it only encourages people to think of themselves as unique, then I can't see the point.
Your Distant Friend
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: pittsburgh, pa
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by keithj
Pagekeeper,
The spiritual principle of anonymity is one of sameness or undistinguished. Humility demands that I am not unique.
I agree with you. It's wonderful that a common solution works for people who normally would not mix. But I think the point is that it's a common solution, regardless of background or station in life.
If a pamphlet corrects the misconception and is inclusive of a group that feels excluded, then I'm all for it. If it only encourages people to think of themselves as unique, then I can't see the point.
The spiritual principle of anonymity is one of sameness or undistinguished. Humility demands that I am not unique.
I agree with you. It's wonderful that a common solution works for people who normally would not mix. But I think the point is that it's a common solution, regardless of background or station in life.
If a pamphlet corrects the misconception and is inclusive of a group that feels excluded, then I'm all for it. If it only encourages people to think of themselves as unique, then I can't see the point.
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
The OP was a question as to why the pamphlet was shelved. I gave the best answer I could, based on what I know, intentionally leaving my views out of it.
I encourage everyone to make their views, pro or con, known as part of their group's conscience next spring.
I encourage everyone to make their views, pro or con, known as part of their group's conscience next spring.
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Posts: 812
Keith, thank you for your thoughts on this topic. I truly do appreciate and respect them, and I will further consider their gravity.
The principle of anonymity, to me, has nothing to do with members becoming automatons or mindless conformists. It simply means I protect your anonymity by not mentioning I've seen you in a meeting or even suggesting it on the most subtle level, and that I do not use A.A. for any kind of personal power or gain. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is what I've been taught.
Again, correct me if I am wrong--and I mean that truly, as I often am wrong--but I prefer to be shown evidence. And by evidence I mean an excerpt from the BB or a statement from one of our founders, and not opinions and personal interpretations.
From the OIAA, a statement by Bill Wilson regarding Tradition Twelve:
Now, if I wanted my NAME on this pamphlet, and I wanted to be congratulated or to garner some kind of popularity for it, or if I wanted to announce it in the newspaper, or write an essay about it for The New York Times--well then I could understand how I'd be placing personalities before principles. But I do not see how the existence of such a pamphlet will interfere with our primary purpose. I mean, none of these other pamphlets have sabotaged A.A.
The principle of anonymity, to me, has nothing to do with members becoming automatons or mindless conformists. It simply means I protect your anonymity by not mentioning I've seen you in a meeting or even suggesting it on the most subtle level, and that I do not use A.A. for any kind of personal power or gain. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is what I've been taught.
Again, correct me if I am wrong--and I mean that truly, as I often am wrong--but I prefer to be shown evidence. And by evidence I mean an excerpt from the BB or a statement from one of our founders, and not opinions and personal interpretations.
From the OIAA, a statement by Bill Wilson regarding Tradition Twelve:
Over a period of years, Bill W. was offered a great deal of public recognition as the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Dr. Bob S., the other co-founder, died in 1950.) Bill declined awards from several colleges, turned down the inclusion of his name and personal history in Who’s Who in America, said no to a Time magazine story that would have placed his picture on the cover, and refused the Lasker Award (which was given to the A.A. Fellowship instead). In 1954, Bill was offered, and turned down, an honorary degree of Doctor of Laws from Yale University. His reasons for doing so, set forth in a letter dated February 2, 1954 to then university secretary Reuben A. Holden, still hold true as watchwords for the new millennium:
“Were I to accept, the near term benefit to Alcoholics Anonymous and to legions who still suffer our malady would, no doubt, be worldwide and considerable. I am sure that such a potent endorsement would greatly hasten public approval of A.A. everywhere. Therefore, none but the most compelling of reasons could prompt my decision to deny Alcoholics Anonymous an opportunity of this dimension.
Now this is the reason. The Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous—our only means of self-government—entreats each member to avoid all that particular kind of personal publicity or distinction which might link his name with our society in the general public mind. A.A.’s Tradition Twelve reads as follows: Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
Because we have already had much practical experience with this vital principle, it is today the view of every thoughtful A.A. member that if, over the years ahead, we practice this anonymity absolutely, it will guarantee our effectiveness and unity by heavily restraining those to whom public honors and distinctions are but the natural stepping-stones to dominance and personal power.
Like other men and women, we A.A.s look with deep apprehension upon the vast power struggle about us, a struggle in myriad forms that invades every level, tearing society apart. I think we A.A.s are fortunate to be acutely aware that such forces must never be ruling among us, lest we perish altogether.
The Tradition of personal anonymity and no honors at the public level is our protective shield. We dare not meet the power temptation naked.”
“Were I to accept, the near term benefit to Alcoholics Anonymous and to legions who still suffer our malady would, no doubt, be worldwide and considerable. I am sure that such a potent endorsement would greatly hasten public approval of A.A. everywhere. Therefore, none but the most compelling of reasons could prompt my decision to deny Alcoholics Anonymous an opportunity of this dimension.
Now this is the reason. The Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous—our only means of self-government—entreats each member to avoid all that particular kind of personal publicity or distinction which might link his name with our society in the general public mind. A.A.’s Tradition Twelve reads as follows: Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
Because we have already had much practical experience with this vital principle, it is today the view of every thoughtful A.A. member that if, over the years ahead, we practice this anonymity absolutely, it will guarantee our effectiveness and unity by heavily restraining those to whom public honors and distinctions are but the natural stepping-stones to dominance and personal power.
Like other men and women, we A.A.s look with deep apprehension upon the vast power struggle about us, a struggle in myriad forms that invades every level, tearing society apart. I think we A.A.s are fortunate to be acutely aware that such forces must never be ruling among us, lest we perish altogether.
The Tradition of personal anonymity and no honors at the public level is our protective shield. We dare not meet the power temptation naked.”
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My comments, Pagekeeper, strayed from your original topic. Jim has a good point about leaving my personal views out of it. I find it an interesting discussion, though, even if it strays.
I agree completely. The Orwellian comment was cute, but misses the point I think. I've found the most personal freedom I've ever known in recovery. That freedom is based, in part, on recognition that I am not so unique in this life. It comes down to how I relate to others. Do I immediately see myself as different, and apart from, or do I see myself as similar? When it comes to alcoholism, I'm a whole lot better served to think of myself as a fellow alcoholic instead of an alcoholic with all of these various qualifications and distinctions.
I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong at all. I'm expanding a bit on that basic view of anonymity. It may well be just my personal opinion, and merits no more consideration. I may be well off the mainstream viewpoint, and I certainly don't speak for AA on this matter. I will tell you that my view on the anonymity and humilty has evolved greatly over time. Bill W. wrote a bunch on anonymity as a spiritual principle, and one can make their own determinations of what he intended. This one makes me think:
"We are sure that humility, expressed by anonymity, is the greatest safeguard that Alcoholics Anonymous can ever have." ". . .anonymity is real humility at work. It is an all-pervading spiritual quality which today keynotes AA life everywhere. Moved by the spirit of anonymity, we try to give up our natural desires for personal distinction as AA members both among fellow alcoholics and before the general public. As we lay aside these very human aspirations, we believe that each of us take part in the weaving of a protective mantle which covers our whole society and under which we may grow and work in unity."
I don't see it as any threat either. I really don't feel strongly one way or the other, and would decide this in a group conscience based on the particular merits of the proposed pamphlet.
I like Dr. Bob's take: "if you really and truly want to quit drinking liquor for good and all, and sincerely feel that you must have some help, we know that we have an answer for you." No distinction is made based on any other requirement except wanting to quit drinking. If that's something you want to do, and need some help, AA has an answer. That attitude gets right down to the practical application of the 12 steps. It doesn't matter what my particulars are, so let's not get too hung up on why I am different. Let's use this answer for the thing in which we are similar. Our common problem and our common solution.
Originally Posted by Pagekeeper
The principle of anonymity, to me, has nothing to do with members becoming automatons or mindless conformists.
Originally Posted by Pagekeeper
It simply means I protect your anonymity by not mentioning I've seen you in a meeting or even suggesting it on the most subtle level, and that I do not use A.A. for any kind of personal power or gain. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is what I've been taught.
"We are sure that humility, expressed by anonymity, is the greatest safeguard that Alcoholics Anonymous can ever have." ". . .anonymity is real humility at work. It is an all-pervading spiritual quality which today keynotes AA life everywhere. Moved by the spirit of anonymity, we try to give up our natural desires for personal distinction as AA members both among fellow alcoholics and before the general public. As we lay aside these very human aspirations, we believe that each of us take part in the weaving of a protective mantle which covers our whole society and under which we may grow and work in unity."
Originally Posted by Pagekeeper
But I do not see how the existence of such a pamphlet will interfere with our primary purpose. I mean, none of these other pamphlets have sabotaged A.A.
I like Dr. Bob's take: "if you really and truly want to quit drinking liquor for good and all, and sincerely feel that you must have some help, we know that we have an answer for you." No distinction is made based on any other requirement except wanting to quit drinking. If that's something you want to do, and need some help, AA has an answer. That attitude gets right down to the practical application of the 12 steps. It doesn't matter what my particulars are, so let's not get too hung up on why I am different. Let's use this answer for the thing in which we are similar. Our common problem and our common solution.
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