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Old 06-04-2006, 08:18 PM
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You Read My Thoughts...

Originally Posted by aloneagainor
You ask the quintessential questions, and I don't know the answer. The "know" probably reveals the answer...my thinking brain--both sides, the addicted and straight. They're at war for control, superceding the heart and the gut. Mind-heavy, there isn't balance. Unwilling/ unable to trust my thinking because I can't decipher which side is talking, it seems important to be open to listen to what others have to say, but not being very able to be honest because I'm hiding so much distorts the picture, which then allows my brain to morph whatever I do hear into whatever it wants. That's living in my head.

Though it's certainly not as though I'm an unfeeling disconnected individual either, I find profound depth and beauty and peace in the natural world, where everything makes clearsense, there is no struggle to interpret truth, what's real is self-evident, the system works, and I find belonging, oneness with all existence...

Oh this is so frustrating, I keep writing and deleting sentences, contradicting myself. Really trying to present a clear picture of what my thinking brain is telling me, while it's busy distracting me. The battle rages on. I've heard it said, "Let your spirit be your guide." My mind is running in circles, playing games with me. Maybe the spirit has better focus. I find writing this out a deeply spiritual quest and appreciate the external guidance freely offered here.

Hey aloneagainor.

Wow — your description of your brain, contradiction, etc. is RIGHT ON for me. I have always called myself the "queen of contradiction." It is SO hard for me to tell how I really feel sometimes. One part of my brain says, "Don't do this, you know it's wrong, it's bad for your health, it wastes your life, it keeps you from happiness, it discourages closeness with other people, and on, and on, and on." The other "contradictory" part of my brain says, "It's not a big deal, you know how good it feels, the present time is all that matters and you want to feel good, just do it and enjoy the high, who cares about the consequences, and on, and on, and on." I hate it so much because it feels like I don't truly know who I am inside.

I consider myself a good person, but this is one area I "just can't help myself" sometimes. It's like I have to wait until I am directly in a specific situation and then decide what I am going to do. I can say whatever I want to, but when confronted with my weaknesses my actions seem to take over. For this reason, I try so hard to resist being in any environment that could cause potential problems for me and my recovery.

Thanks for the post. Reading messages from everyone here at SR is helpful, and it opens my eyes to many things. (Unloading it by "saying" it to someone is also an amazing relief.)

Take care. You are not the only one who struggles with contradiction, and it sucks.

Jennifer
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by temlin3
Hey aloneagainor.

Wow — your description of your brain, contradiction, etc. is RIGHT ON for me. I have always called myself the "queen of contradiction." It is SO hard for me to tell how I really feel sometimes. One part of my brain says, "Don't do this, you know it's wrong, it's bad for your health, it wastes your life, it keeps you from happiness, it discourages closeness with other people, and on, and on, and on." The other "contradictory" part of my brain says, "It's not a big deal, you know how good it feels, the present time is all that matters and you want to feel good, just do it and enjoy the high, who cares about the consequences, and on, and on, and on." I hate it so much because it feels like I don't truly know who I am inside.

Jennifer
The description of the brain that you all are referring too is the disease of addiction. Yes we all have that, we have a committee in our heads. I guess it goes back to the black/white dogs that we did talk about. We as addicts understand this for none of us are unique in that way. We do know who we are, "WE ARE ADDICTS/ALCOHOLICS" that is truly the only thing that we need to know and to truly believe. If we keep denying it, or if we don't come to grips that others are just like us, then we will struggle with being clean. Anyway good to see this continuing.

Love Vic
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Old 06-05-2006, 01:01 PM
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Every day I wrestle with this contradiction as you articulated Temlin-Jen. I let it chew on my brain for hours this morning before kicking myself out of it. Somehow it seems relevant at the time it's processing to allow those wheels to spin, but in retrospect it was just a continuation of the black dog/ white dog fight, snapping at each other as they will. It's not until I insist, "Hey, knock it off!, oftentimes repeatedly, before they retreat to their corners and go lie down. I have to deliberately intervene or they'd keep at it all day long.

So, what to do about it. Both sides present compelling "reasons" (we can see both sides of everything and choose our beliefs to suit accordingly). We have to step back from the limited narrow view and look at the bigger picture, to let that be the guide. That's a tall order, I realize. But it really is about choosing your reality...and the overall direction of your life. Amazingly, when the dogs are fighting, I can still look at my options, of choosing to engage in reality as it exists, OR isolating in the illusion created under the influence, and somehow conclude that illusion/ avoidance is the way I want to go...until I tell them to knock it off, so then to see clearly again.

Knowing we're not alone in this, that addicts across the board struggle with these same internal conflicts, and so many do it in isolation, and that avoidance is a byproduct of NOT accepting reality as it exists, and that if left unchecked it continues to gain strength and momentum burying one deeper into THAT bad habit, which then fuels the addiction...is further prompt to get out of that, extend outward to connect with others OUTSIDE myself, rather than continue this vicious warfare to which there is no end.

Yes Temlin-Jen it most definitely DOES help to state this, so to know others can and do relate. And yes Vic it IS good to see this continuing. I really do need to address this whole avoidance thing...and seeing how integrally connected it is to addiction helps to make sense of what's going on here. And what I need to do about it.
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:19 PM
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Smile My eyes are opening

Originally Posted by luckyv2
The description of the brain that you all are referring too is the disease of addiction. Yes we all have that, we have a committee in our heads. I guess it goes back to the black/white dogs that we did talk about. We as addicts understand this for none of us are unique in that way. We do know who we are, "WE ARE ADDICTS/ALCOHOLICS" that is truly the only thing that we need to know and to truly believe. If we keep denying it, or if we don't come to grips that others are just like us, then we will struggle with being clean. Anyway good to see this continuing.

Love Vic
Thanks so much for your post. I honestly didn't realize how prevalent avoidnace and escapism was in addiction. I guess I've been a lone addict for a very long time. I though my "contradiction" was a personality or psychological matter, not addiction-related.

Anyway, thanks for the great insight. I learn more every day about this disease, and therefore myself.

Jennifer
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:47 PM
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Post Agreed, but still scared...

Originally Posted by aloneagainor
Every day I wrestle with this contradiction as you articulated Temlin-Jen. I let it chew on my brain for hours this morning before kicking myself out of it. Somehow it seems relevant at the time it's processing to allow those wheels to spin, but in retrospect it was just a continuation of the black dog/ white dog fight, snapping at each other as they will. It's not until I insist, "Hey, knock it off!, oftentimes repeatedly, before they retreat to their corners and go lie down. I have to deliberately intervene or they'd keep at it all day long.

So, what to do about it. Both sides present compelling "reasons" (we can see both sides of everything and choose our beliefs to suit accordingly). We have to step back from the limited narrow view and look at the bigger picture, to let that be the guide. That's a tall order, I realize. But it really is about choosing your reality...and the overall direction of your life. Amazingly, when the dogs are fighting, I can still look at my options, of choosing to engage in reality as it exists, OR isolating in the illusion created under the influence, and somehow conclude that illusion/ avoidance is the way I want to go...until I tell them to knock it off, so then to see clearly again.

Knowing we're not alone in this, that addicts across the board struggle with these same internal conflicts, and so many do it in isolation, and that avoidance is a byproduct of NOT accepting reality as it exists, and that if left unchecked it continues to gain strength and momentum burying one deeper into THAT bad habit, which then fuels the addiction...is further prompt to get out of that, extend outward to connect with others OUTSIDE myself, rather than continue this vicious warfare to which there is no end.

Yes Temlin-Jen it most definitely DOES help to state this, so to know others can and do relate. And yes Vic it IS good to see this continuing. I really do need to address this whole avoidance thing...and seeing how integrally connected it is to addiction helps to make sense of what's going on here. And what I need to do about it.

Hey aloneagainor,

Thanks for sharing with me again. I agree with what you've stated here... that deliberately intervening is a successful way of pushing the contradicting sides away; that looking at the bigger picture is essential to finding your true self and choosing your path in life; that our first experiences with avoidance have in certain ways supported our addictions; and pretty much everything else you said.

I truly do believe that drug abuse of any kind (alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, etc.) is directly related to "escapism" for many people. I know it is for me. I have to learn how to cope with my life by using other, healthy means. But it is this that scares me.

What if I can't do it? In my head, I know that I don't want these problems... I don't want to be dependent upon anything else to make it through my days. But in the moment, when you make that decision to continue using or stop, it is extremely difficult. (I know, duh, this is not a new idea...) But this is my greatest fear. I often think that I may be so afraid to be sober because I don't really know who I am. I have lived this lifestyle for too long, and I almost can't remember who I was before. I guess these are thoughts and questions everyone asks when they begin recovery, but right know they are prevalent in my mind.

For me, my substance abuse is also psychologically related. I have ongoing clinical depression that only adds to my struggle to stay sober. For me, being sober is usually not a pleasant thing. But I am working on this with my doctors.

Anyway... thanks again for your post. I truly love this place because I can say anything. No one is going to judge me. Many people are very similar when it comes to life struggles. It always feels good top let things out. I think I'd literally explode if I didn't.

Thanks for "listening." I apprecite it more than you know.

Jennifer

— I am really not making this face at you! I just love these smilies... Take care!
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Old 06-06-2006, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by temlin3
Thanks so much for your post. I honestly didn't realize how prevalent avoidnace and escapism was in addiction. I guess I've been a lone addict for a very long time. I though my "contradiction" was a personality or psychological matter, not addiction-related.

Anyway, thanks for the great insight. I learn more every day about this disease, and therefore myself.
Now it's like YOU read My mind, Jennifer ((thank you Vic)). I'm just making this connection between avoidance and addiction as well. You'd think it would be more obvious, but inside the inherently contradicting addict-thinking brain it's not clear at all. On the contrary, we're blinded to it. Addiction is deceptive. Crosses over into our lives, and makes US deceptive, to protect the deceptive nature of the addiction itself.

See, there is no separating the two sides of our thinking, so long as we allow them to co-exist within us. That's the fundamental reason we can't allow active use to continue. Because this, like everything else, is interconnected.

As for the rest of your post...did you write that, or did I? Geez, you even look like me (that is you in your atavar, yes? Holding, perchance, Temlin?) Addressing these statements and questions you pose, I can only respond with what I've learned so far, and hope others jump in to contribute, because I'm stuck on the very same points. (as an aside, I'm 8 years older than you, and can testify that until you start seriously addressing these questions and DOING something about it, you'll keep cycling over the same questions, stuck in place, without answers. Distancing yourself ever-further from connecting with others, and from yourself, as you disintegrate that way.)

Fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of not being able to succeed...immobilizes us. And our fears are largely based on imagination, but of course they would be, the future is not reality yet. We CANNOT allow fear, the "what if's" to rule us, to direct us. That's addict-thinking, and it's corrosive. That's right what you write, "learn how to cope with my life by using other, healthy means." That's about learning acceptence, and DOING what you need to do to get well.

Originally Posted by Temlin3
For me, being sober is usually not a pleasant thing.
I think we maintain this mindset because a) because we've not had enough time to learn how to live otherwise, b) we're scared to let it go, and c) it's a conditioned familiarity, a psychologically isolated place wherein we don't have to deal with life on its own terms. For the time under the influence, we don't have to deal with anyone or anything, including ourselves. That's a self-image problem, that's only further underscored by the fact that we're using and hiding. Constantly contraditing ourselves. And avoiding. You see the vicious cycle perpetuated through continued use? Only way out is to get out of it. Seriously.

I'm so grateful for the continued input on this subject. Things that I've long thought SHOULD be obvious to me, I've been so blind to, because I've not let out what I'm thinking, nor let any outside input in. Yep, no judgment here. Only gratitude for direct honesty. Appreciative of clarity. Yes, thanks for listening. I DO know how much you appreciate it, I really do.
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Old 06-06-2006, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by luckyv2
The description of the brain that you all are referring too is the disease of addiction. Yes we all have that, we have a committee in our heads. I guess it goes back to the black/white dogs that we did talk about. We as addicts understand this for none of us are unique in that way. We do know who we are, "WE ARE ADDICTS/ALCOHOLICS" that is truly the only thing that we need to know and to truly believe. If we keep denying it, or if we don't come to grips that others are just like us, then we will struggle with being clean. Anyway good to see this continuing.

Love Vic
I just wanted to comment here that a lot of this stuff that I have learned is either by reading the AA/NA books, counseling is a great help also. In our brains which have been damaged by the using is something called the THIQ's now our livers don't function the way they used to also because of our use. Since the livers have been damaged and don't process stuff like it is suppose to, the stuff goes into our brains in the THIQ thing and causes mixed wiring up there. Now I am sure that I am not explaining this really well. But I am sure that you can find more on it by search google. OK just wanted to let you all know that the knowledge is wonderful yes, but that alone will not keep us clean. In order to stay clean we have to live a different life. It says in the NA Basic Text that "We have never seen anyone relapse who lives the NA Way!" Pretty profound huh!

Love Vic
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Old 06-06-2006, 04:49 PM
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Hey aloneagainor...

Yes, it's crazy how much we can lie to ourselves, push all the obvious signs out of our way. When I think about addiction and escapism now, it is so clear — and I wonder why I didn't admit it this whole time. (I honestly think I did know I was escaping... but I don't think I cared.) The drugs make us blind, and we're losing out on life because of that. Not only are we avoiding the negative experiences in life, but we're also missing the positive experiences. Although... that seems to bring my mind back to the good times I had with various substances. Those good memories make it hard to let go of drugs too. It's impossible to deny that drugs make us feel good — why else in the world would we choose to do them? But that positive experience, that wonderful feeling that we want... it eventually turns into a need, and that's where the problems become apparent. I often wonder if there's such a thing as "experimental" drug use. It seems that many people are capable of random use, but how do they do that? I know for a fact that I cannot. It is either all or nothing for me — I'm not sure if that's always been a part of me or if I made it that way.

And now the whole "new lifestyle" thing makes sense. I cannot imagine myself surrounded by the friends I used to have and the environments I used to live in. Even now, when I've been marijuana-free for one whole year (wow, I just realized that now)... if I ended up in a room watching people get high, smelling that smoke... I really don't know if I'd be strong enough to say no. I haven't even seen pot or been around anything close to it since I quit, but somehow I know I'd be in trouble. I can't really know what I'd do because I haven't been in that situation. That's brings another question to light: Are we supposed to be able to handle being around drugs? If we change our lifestyle to revolve around healthy, "straight" people, isn't that a type of avoidance too? I don't know. Contradiction, here we go again... And what would I do... Would I relapse into that "numb" person I used to be? It's a scary thought. Especially knowing how possible it is for me to "fall" into a room like that. If I'm lucky, I won't. But chances are I will have to face it again someday.

I fully know and understand what I need to do. In some ways, I am doing it. I've quit my old habits... but I've also picked up new ones. It's an awful cycle, and I wish I knew how to live outside of it. There's always something — something that takes me away from reality. Is it a fear of my true self? Or maybe it's the fear of seeing everything else as it truly is... because the world is insane, and our lives are so incredibly complicated. I won't even try to pretend that I am knowledgeable about addiction recovery... I am so new to this whole acceptance thing. Just one year ago I was laughing about how I'd be a grandmother in a swing on my porch smoking a joint. I was still in denial back then. I wouldn't let myself see how much pot meant to me. That's kind of sad when I actually write it down. I really, really hope that I will someday be able to handle my life completely sober. I know I am capable of it, but I'm not so sure my "mind" is ready for it.

...
Yes, that is me in the picture. It was taken about 3 years ago, and my big brown baby's name is Charlie. Now, 3 years later, he is my 103-lb. baby! Huge, but still such a sweetheart.

I have to apologize... sometimes my thoughts are so all over the place. It's like my fingers can't type fast enough to get the thoughts out. (Not that they would be easy to follow anyway.) Plus, I'm having sort of a ****** day. There isn't any real specific reason for it. Just one of those days that fade into the ones before and after it... when I come home and immediately grab a glass of something.

Well, at least I have started to change my addictive lifestyle. That's probably the hardest part of any change. I've got a ways to go, but here's to hoping you and I stay on the right track. (And for me, to get off the wrong track while I am at it. I've been having weak points when I'll take something just because my brain tells me "f it.")

OK, I've rambled enough. Hopefully it makes sense... I work 9 hours a day as a proofreader so reading/writing is hard to do at home sometimes.

Thanks so much for everything. I can't believe I was trying to overcome all of these problems without this support. I must be nuts.

Jennifer

"I've been absolutely terrified every moment of my life — and I've never let it keep me from doing a single thing I wanted to do."
— Georgia O'Keeffe
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:57 AM
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At the same time you wrote this post I was reading material that applicable in response. Serendipitous.
The progressive stages of addiction:
stage 1) Experimentation -learning
stage 2) Social use
stage 3) Substance abuse -chemical dependency
stage 4) Chronic chemical dependency--substance used to feel normal.
Originally Posted by temlin3
As want... it eventually turns into a need, and that's where the problems become apparent.
I figured I'd always stay at stage 1, got it under control! Surely all addicts initially thought that way. It's progressive, not regressive. Can't go back to stage 1. For addicts it is an all or none deal. Translated, you have your mind, health, and life, or you don't.

Again with the avoidance as technique. It's not appearing a viable long-term solution to merely avoid the drugs. That certainly HELPS to not use, but drugs are everywhere, and if they're on the mind, the body somehow follows and finds them. Reminds me of Homer Simpson talking to the pie. "OK pie, I'm just going to be over here doing this (he says while chomping his jaws as he advances toward the pie) and if you get in my way you're going to get eaten." (not a direct quote, but you get the idea.)

It has to be more fundamentally decided than that. I think it requires committment to change. We need to learn to trust ourselves, to know we won't use even if in a potential using situation. Otherwise we're just...avoiding. It appears that, to get outside of it, we need to get outside of our own best internal thinking and allow outside perspective in. Allow other people in. Have some REASON to not retreat inside the protected confines of our own mind. Isn't that what we're doing in using, using to feel "normal"? The goal then would be to adjust what we regard as "normal". In time...away from active use...I trust...these changes can sink in, and that new way will replace the old, so we can accept who we are. Accept life on its own terms.

To accomplish that we have to DO something to advance the changes. Addiction is progressive, so is recovery. Have patience. Be gentle. I'm learning day by day too. Addiction is insanity, yes.
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:23 AM
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I just came back from counseling and OMG, there is a new thing out, a study, that says how much our brains have been fried and not to think our own thinking is what she told me. Here is the paper work that she gave to me I found it on the internet also.


Brain Activity Patterns Signal Risk of Relapse to Methamphetamine Research Findings
Vol. 20, No. 5 (April 2006)





Methamphetamine abusers who relapse after treatment appear to make decisions using different brain regions than do those who remain abstinent.
By Patrick Zickler, NIDA NOTES Contributing Writer

NIDA-supported investigators have found that functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) of the brain, performed during a psychological test, can predict with high accuracy whether an individual will relapse following treatment for methamphetamine abuse. Their study revealed a characteristic pattern of brain activity in methamphetamine-abusing men who relapsed within 1 to 3 years after completing treatment and a different pattern in men who did not.




Dr. Martin Paulus and colleagues at the University of California, San Diego, took the point of departure for their work from previous research that showed methamphetamine abusers and nonabusers activating different brain areas during psychological tests of decisionmaking. These earlier studies showed that poor choices made by drug abusers correlate to distinctive patterns of activity in some areas of the brain. Dr. Paulus's team hypothesized that activity patterns in those regions might also be associated with relapse to drug abuse, which involves similarly destructive decisions.

To test their hypothesis, the researchers recruited 46 men who had voluntarily entered and completed a 28-day inpatient drug treatment program after abusing methamphetamine for periods ranging from 3 to 34 years. When each man had been abstinent for about 4 weeks, he participated in two psychological tests. During one, he was asked to watch a computer screen and press a button every time a symbol appeared. In the other, he was asked to try to predict whether a flashing symbol would next occur on the left side or right side of the computer screen. The difference between the two tasks was that, in the first, the test-taker needed only to react upon seeing the symbol, while in the second, he needed to decide which side to choose. The researchers recorded the men's brain activity with fMRI throughout the tests.

A year or more (360 to 967 days) after the imaging sessions, Dr. Paulus's team was able to locate and contact 40 of the 46 patients. Of these, 18 had relapsed to methamphetamine abuse (median time to relapse, 279 days; range, 36 to 820 days). Comparing their fMRI results with those of the 22 nonrelapsers, the researchers noted nine regions where the groups' brain activity had differed during decisionmaking. The relapse group showed less activation of the dorsolateral, prefrontal, parietal, and temporal cortices and the insula—regions associated with evaluation and choice among actions that may lead to either beneficial or harmful outcomes. The patterns of brain activation predicted relapse in 17 of the 18 men who had resumed methamphetamine abuse and predicted successful abstinence in 20 of the 22 patients who had not relapsed, Dr. Paulus says.

"The most striking aspect of this result is that the fMRI pattern has 90 percent accuracy in predicting outcome. The differences in brain activity are pronounced, with little overlap."

"The most striking aspect of this result is that the fMRI pattern has 90 percent accuracy in predicting outcome," Dr. Paulus says. "The differences in brain activity are pronounced, with little overlap." Differences in the right insula, right posterior cingulate, and right middle temporal gyrus differentiated relapsers from nonrelapsers. Other brain regions predicted the timing of relapse.

"Some of these predictive areas have not previously been strongly associated with drug abuse," observes Dr. Steven Grant of NIDA's Division of Clinical Neurosciences and Behavioral Research. "For example, while other investigators have reported alterations in the parietal lobe related to drug abuse, this is the first study to show the parietal cortex playing an important role. However, because so many brain regions were related to relapse, we still do not have a full understanding of what specific process might be dysfunctional in the relapse group."





The potential clinical implications of the new finding are promising, but uncertain. For example, no women were included among the participants, who were enrolled from treatment programs. "It's important to confirm the findings in women, for whom social, demographic, and other factors associated with relapse may differ," Dr. Paulus points out. Nonetheless, he says that, in principle, programs treating methamphetamine abuse might use the fMRI protocol to assess patients, then assign those likelier to relapse to higher levels of care. Dr. Paulus believes such an approach might prove cost-effective, even with typical fMRI charges of up to $700 per hour in academic imaging centers. "The human and social costs of relapse are high," Dr. Paulus says. "Using this imaging technique to precisely allocate care to the patients who need it most might well produce enough savings elsewhere to more than offset its expense. An alternative, more practical course of action might be to use these fMRI results as a benchmark for development of other assessments that are less costly, but have the same predictive strength."

Source
Here is the web site don't know if I am suppose to put this here or not. Sure I will find out though http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNvol20N5/Brain.html
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:34 AM
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THANK GOD I never touched meth. That stuff sounds so destructive.
Corrosive in all ways.

Though I HAVE to draw this parallel, between the doctor/ researchers name "Paulus", and the drug that's so taunting me today, in Panaeolus mushrooms. I mean...different drug...same fundamental problem. Drugs mess with all aspects of life, physically, mentally, spiritually.
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aloneagainor
I mean...different drug...same fundamental problem. Drugs mess with all aspects of life, physically, mentally, spiritually.
That is it, same fundamental problems for all of us. When we come to realize that not only physically we are different than most normal people but also mentally different, and even spiritually different. When we do accept that then recovery begins, if we don't use. If we continue to use, jails, institutions, and death.

Love Vic
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