August252015

If they do that, then tragically, they weren't ready to stop. I know we don't see this the same way Hodd -I'm giving a little more context to what I originally posted, intending to share more about the why and the BB program.

First, it is always (and clearly stated) about suggestion of what we have done to get and stay sober. No instructions. It is most definitely not professional instruction and advice, and indeed not close to reverse psychology.

One suggestion is that if you are not convinced you are an alcoholic, "to go out and keep drinking" is expressed in the book (paraphrase) is to see if you can choose to stop when you start, not drink if you don't want to (these get at loss of control). Couple more experience based things thrown in there.

Many times, people say that AA is not for the ones that need it, but for the ones that want it. This goes back to the premise that we need to be willing to work the program (steps) to see the freedom and happiness (the promises) as those sharing with us have found.

I'd typically phrase this when I talk with others as something like "it's up to you to decide when you are ready and willing to work the program" - that could mean, yeah, they get the implicit idea (as said above) to keep trying it "their way" and see how they do. That's not necessarily a cynical way or destructive suggestion - it's back to that willingness to seek what we have, by doing what we did.

This all ties into personal responsibility as well - like the part you mention about it being up to each person (and their liver!). Which in AA means that while the group itself depends on unity, each person's recovery is up to them. The only thing we learn we CANNOT control is what happens after we take the first drink. So, I would be trying to direct someone's path if I spent time regretful that they went back out drinking - nothing I say should be interpreted as permission, instruction to self destruct, etc. But as DriGuy said - us alcoholics will look for any reason (or person to blame) to keep drinking, unless we ourselves want to quit. It's truly that simple, according to AA.

Not everyone agrees with AA - my ultimate hope is that before disagreeing (as I did, vehemently, without true examination and ultimately because I didn't want to stop), everyone does see what it is really about.

Also - not everyone in AA agrees with each other. It's a simple premise yet a different path for each of us to get to that willingness. Yet, it's the same conclusion. Living in the program means learning from others, and considering what they do in many ways - because each one of us springboards of the steps to create our best version of a sober life (hopefully!).

And the liver dr example....I had plenty of drs advise cutting back before they got to the point of saying I had to quit. I hear lots of others (especially our friends in England, it seems) get the moderation advice (lessen, cut back) from many professionals.

Bottom line? I do believe it takes what it takes, which is different for all of us. But it's never too early to quit and live better than we are when drinking.

Hodd

Joe787

There are certainly favorable conditions which make quitting easier, but that goes with everything in life. You can't just sit around waiting for those conditions. More importantly, your health can't sit around waiting.

AAPJ

Amazing that I remembered this from an old cassette tape program perhaps 20 years ago. Today it's just an internet search away. From motivational speaker Zig Zigler. I think he got it right.

You can start where you are with what you’ve got and go to wherever it is you want to go. There is no “perfect time” to start a journey. You just have to start, no matter where you are in life.

He was talking about big life decisions like getting married, buying a house and having children but I think it applies here.

Hodd

CupofJoe

I think you might have misunderstood.

What August said was "One suggestion is that if you are not convinced you are an alcoholic, "to go out and keep drinking" is expressed in the book (paraphrase) is to see if you can choose to stop when you start, not drink if you don't want to (these get at loss of control). Couple more experience based things thrown in there."

Within the context of the book, it's to help someone who is not sure if they're alcoholic or not. This was before there was much awareness of what alcoholism is in the general population. It's not to get frustrated with someone and tell them to just go drink.

If someone already knows they're alcoholic, they don't need to test the waters. They don't need to be told to try controlled drinking.

AA is certainly not one size fits all and it's not the solution for everyone.

I didn't want you to misunderstand the point of what that suggestion means. I think August explained it better than I can, though.

I think we would all agree, though, that if you're alcoholic, the best time to quit is now.

Hodd

August252015

Thanks Cupof Joe - that is definitely what I was getting at.

And Hodd, just another thought- it's a whole book, and there are many parts. It's not a chapter about "go back out and drink." You describe the "simple" choice to stop that it is, technically, if you will - but it's not easy and everyone has a different process of the "you're drinking too much" and actually stopping gap.

CoJ ended with the best line of all!

And, here at SR or at an AA meeting or in a random conversation with an old friend like I bumped into today....anyone saying "I need help" or "I need to quit. What do I do?" is an opportunity to share what you did, and it just might be what they need to hear. If enough of us are willing to share whatever has gotten and keeps us sober - and we have more ways to do that than ever!- then to me, everyone benefits because more hope is spread that it can be done.

faith823

what truly got me to quit /stop/ begin anew-Which is finally for me.
I really never use to care what people thought of me. I wanted my drink regardless

One day in the ER it all came to a head unbearable pain of the outside world looking at me as a hopeless alcoholic. Myself settling for less and taking on the title -hopeless alcoholic.
Dr's/ER rooms/former employer/certain non-alcoholic friends.
Something in side me decided and chose not to be the hopeless alcoholic any longer. I have hope- I know many many people that took action and got sober and have stayed sober. Why not me? Why not partake and follow through with the recovery offered to me for years and years. Definitely is the easier, softer way. Thank you for listening. Just an epiphany that really help me turn the corner.

August252015

Me, too, Faith! Didn't care what others thought or told me, truly- even ones on the sober side who really did know the gist of my self-destruction. I had to have that something within me that made ME want to quit. However anyone gets that "message" and then acts on it - bc many of us get the message before we are ready to quit! - they win, and everyone around them wins! Of course, for me, the real victory will be dying sober - it will mean I did all I could, with help from others and my spiritual life, to live well.

Gottalife

A perfect time to quit could be considered from a number of view points. From the point of view of physical and mental health, damage to society, finance, and relationships, maybe the sooner the better.

But...."Though there is no way of proving it, we believe that early in our drinking careers most of us could have stopped drinking. But the difficulty is that few alcoholics have enough desire to stop while there is yet time." BB page 32.

When I was 16 the court slapped me with a prohibition order. To celebrate I got drunk. It is clear the problem was obvious to a lot of folks long before it became obvious to me.

Another aspect of the perfect time would be the resulting recovery. Knocking off begrudgingly, resentfully, (think dry drunk) not really convinced about the problem as a whole and therefore not feeling the need to do all that much about it other than not drink, is not an uncommon thing. Within the fellowship of AA, people who do not work the steps believe they don't need to. There is no other reason other than they are not convinced of the need.

The perfect time for me to recover was when I became totally convinced that self reliance had failed and would continue to fail, and I could see no way out of the misery by my unaided power. That position was arrived at through the conscious experiment suggested in the book, controlled drinking, which I had tried and failed at before. I tried and failed one more time, and the hopelessness of my situation really hit home in what I would call my first step experience.

I desperately wanted the misery to stop and at last I saw the need and had the desire to follow the AA program as it was suggested to me. I held nothing back, there were no reservations. It was life and death. To quote another AA book, "John Barleycorn had become our best advocate"

AAPJ

While a lot of folks understandably do not like the "go out and drink some more" line I do not think it is delivered with harm as the intent. From my experience it's more of an almost defeated way to get a new person who shows up at a meeting (say by invitation from the court) to think about his drinking when said person is clearly expressing doubt about his/her need to quit. From what I have seen over the years it is rarely used/spoken. It's a last resort.